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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
On December 26 2011 22:14 wOrD yO wrote: Oh i read the thread wrong, this is just a guide on how to play a macro/late game PvT? Nothing to do with build orders. Yeah^^ | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
On December 26 2011 22:07 Fus wrote: Nice guide, im mid/high master protoss and i never use DT and HT. I think it's because i'm not very good at the spead micro and multitasking. I like to play colossus and warpgate style with warpprism and i only get templar archives when my main is outmined and i have to rebuild alot of zealot which meens i get alot of gas to spend on archons. I have tried HT style sometimes but the terran kites away/EMP from my storm and the rest of my army just melt because of the lack of splash. Do you think i will have to play HT/DT and warpprism style to get into top masters and mabie GM some day? I would suggest to try use more DT/HT/warp prism style. It helps your multitasking and mechanics and is better than just massing big army in PvT lategame... Just try it at least  | ||
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eteran
Germany83 Posts
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
On December 26 2011 22:27 eteran wrote: The title is a bit misleading Welmu. I expected a writeup about how to properly survive early and midgame stages of the game while not falling behind economically too much at the same time. What this is, is more a "How to play lategame PvT", and it's great for that matter. But for me personally I have problems with reaching that phase of the game (mid Master level) at all since I die to 1-2 base allins and 10 minute pushes alot or alternativly am way behind if I decide to play super save. You just have to figure out safe build to get up 3rd base. Double forge with pretty late 3rd or something like Colossus into 3rd all both pretty standard ways to set up for a macro game. Just remember scout and react according what your opponent does too and not just autopilot. I go ask, if I can change the title >_> | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Minor quibble: I think you skipped over one of Protoss's biggest advantages over Terran in late game which is mass in-battle reinforcements. Whenever I have extra minerals in late-game PvT, I dump them on massing gateways so that I can warp in 20 zealots as soon as my zealot wall starts to take damage. If you fight near a pylon and not too near Terran's base, you can get 2 rounds of reinforcements (80+ food) before Terran's first round of reinforcements make it out of his natural. The more warpgates you have, the stronger your late-game army is. You can never have too many warpgates in PvT. Also, it's good to trade armies regularly in late-game PvT because it prevents Terran from stacking EMPs. Archons don't typically get much done in your first big engagement because they get EMPed down immediately, but when you remax and fight again before T can stack EMPs, the archons tear through the bio. | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
On December 27 2011 01:58 kcdc wrote: Good post. Minor quibble: I think you skipped over one of Protoss's biggest advantages over Terran in late game which is mass in-battle reinforcements. Whenever I have extra minerals in late-game PvT, I dump them on massing gateways so that I can warp in 20 zealots as soon as my zealot wall starts to take damage. If you fight near a pylon and not too near Terran's base, you can get 2 rounds of reinforcements (80+ food) before Terran's first round of reinforcements make it out of his natural. The more warpgates you have, the stronger your late-game army is. You can never have too many warpgates in PvT. Also, it's good to trade armies regularly in late-game PvT because it prevents Terran from stacking EMPs. Archons don't typically get much done in your first big engagement because they get EMPed down immediately, but when you remax and fight again before T can stack EMPs, the archons tear through the bio. Yeah good points. I explained about warp-ins and pressuring Terran a little bit, but not really a lot. I write a little bit more about both^^. About reinforcing you have to be very careful during battles. If you are losing the battle badly and you warp in like 10+ zealots to battle you will lose them without doing any damage. You have to judge the situation and warp-in according to that, but its very powerful tool, indeed. Im propably thinking it as too clear a thing | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
%37 pvz % 23 pvt.i wrote 7 email to blizzard about this fact and no reply yet. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 27 2011 03:05 Welmu wrote: Yeah good points. I explained about warp-ins and pressuring Terran a little bit, but not really a lot. I write a little bit more about both^^. About reinforcing you have to be very careful during battles. If you are losing the battle badly and you warp in like 10+ zealots to battle you will lose them without doing any damage. You have to judge the situation and warp-in according to that, but its very powerful tool, indeed. Im propably thinking it as too clear a thing What I meant is that Protoss's warp-in mechanic means that every warpgate you have effectively increases your maximum supply by 2 because the reinforcements enter the battle almost instantly where they play a deciding role. If you have a 200/200 army with 10 warpgates, your effective army size is 220/200. If you have a 200/200 army with 30 warpgates, your effective army size is 260/200. While Terran also wants to have a lot of barracks to rebuild his army quickly, it's not the same because there's a ~45 second delay between when Terran frees supply and when his units are at the point of the battle by which time the fight is usually decided. So his unit production adds toward his next army whereas Protoss's production capacity adds size to their current army. Stacking gateways is sort of the Protoss equivalent to Terran killing SCVs to free supply. | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
On December 27 2011 05:39 kcdc wrote: What I meant is that Protoss's warp-in mechanic means that every warpgate you have effectively increases your maximum supply by 2 because the reinforcements enter the battle almost instantly where they play a deciding role. If you have a 200/200 army with 10 warpgates, your effective army size is 220/200. If you have a 200/200 army with 30 warpgates, your effective army size is 260/200. While Terran also wants to have a lot of barracks to rebuild his army quickly, it's not the same because there's a ~45 second delay between when Terran frees supply and when his units are at the point of the battle by which time the fight is usually decided. So his unit production adds toward his next army whereas Protoss's production capacity adds size to their current army. Stacking gateways is sort of the Protoss equivalent to Terran killing SCVs to free supply. Hmm, I actually prefer not to use this kind of mass warp-in style. I would prefer to not stack so much minerals and be so active around map that you don't have to build tons of extra warp-gates, because of extra resources. I don't really like building tons of extra warp-gates, if you won't be able to use them effectively later on too. I would just suggest building that many warp-gates that you can spend your resources well enough. I would much more likely have that extra 1000 minerals to use for zealots than for extra warp-gates. In short, I don't really like relying on big battle wins to win a game. | ||
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nB)Bouh
France35 Posts
When you are going into the lategame what is your main purpose to win the game? Getting map control to have good positioning ? Or grinding him slowly and just finishing him when the times come? Etc. My main problem is to take good decisions related to my scouting : I usually decide to do something (e.g. expanding, upgrading or teching) based on my envy. For instance, do you have a criteria (or several) for colossus switch ?I would say that Killing a big amount of medivac is a good time for colossus swtich because he can't make so many vikings. An other question about taking third if you don't mind : I have issues deciding when taking the third. In the case of 1g expand vs 1rax no gaz expand. Will you delaying your third for example if you see that he teched straighted to medivac without upgrade? Or you always do the same BO and you hope you will hold your third thanks to your micro/macro | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
On December 27 2011 23:38 nB)Bouh wrote: Nice guide. I have a few questions When you are going into the lategame what is your main purpose to win the game? Getting map control to have good positioning ? Or grinding him slowly and just finishing him when the times come? Etc. My main problem is to take good decisions related to my scouting : I usually decide to do something (e.g. expanding, upgrading or teching) based on my envy. For instance, do you have a criteria (or several) for colossus switch ?I would say that Killing a big amount of medivac is a good time for colossus swtich because he can't make so many vikings. An other question about taking third if you don't mind : I have issues deciding when taking the third. In the case of 1g expand vs 1rax no gaz expand. Will you delaying your third for example if you see that he teched straighted to medivac without upgrade? Or you always do the same BO and you hope you will hold your third thanks to your micro/macro I like to cripple my opponents, by constanst harass and denying expansions and getting the game control so I force them to bad engages and win eventually with superior income. I usually take the third always about the same time, when I know Im safe against everything. It can sometimes change though, if I see my opponent taking 3rd very early or if opponent is playing unorthodox. Just don't try rushing to 3rd base too greedily, like when you are doing double forge you can take it very late | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20274 Posts
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
Also, do you recommend including DTs in your army, or is it useless due to EMP? If yes, how many? | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
On December 28 2011 02:00 Darclite wrote: You emphasize templar but don't speak much about archons. If you have +3 attack or are just ahead in upgrades, do you recommend getting archons instead of templar to take advantage? Also, do you recommend including DTs in your army, or is it useless due to EMP? If yes, how many? Archons are good in army until your opponent starts to have many ghosts with a lot of emp ready and usually in lategame Terran will have that many ghosts that your archons are like paperplanes , but if you notice low amount of ghost sure go make some archons.I would recommend max 1 DT in your army, because they are really bad at fights and your opponent has to just scan to kill them. Terrans even usually scan the army to be able to see where it is clearly/to kill observers so I wouldnt recommend having DTs in your army. | ||
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darkshad30000
France111 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
I haven't really tried such heavy harass style vs Terran, though I do use it against Zerg. Makes sense though seeing how Terran map vision isn't quite as good as Zergs w/ ovies. Another random tip I'd like to add is keep a probe with your warp prism(s). Drop pylons wheverever you feel like-- when you harass, drop the probe, put a pylon in a spot far from where you warp in and harass where your opponent is not likely to look. After he thinks he's defended your "drop", warp in again! More warp in places, more potential danger. Plus, the terran needs to keep sending units to kill off these potential warp in spots, and you can always warp in and kill those off if he doesn't send that many. | ||
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-Cyrus-
United States318 Posts
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Ravomat
Germany422 Posts
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starfox0_0
United States29 Posts
I know it feels risky but even when I am playing a macro game I love using 1 gate expand because it gives me just enough units to start fighting. I know I'm pretty safe at home with cannons at the ramps. I just want to start doing something as soon as I can, because I almost always know what their composition is and where they are. This leads to the correct transitions that I need. I'm definitely going to use this guide right now. | ||
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