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On December 22 2011 20:22 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 11:22 Tropical Bob wrote:You forgot to mention smart-fire AI: On December 21 2011 22:29 Sm3agol wrote:
I am still a major proponent of removing all "instant attack" animations(marine, tank, immortal...are there any more?) because smart fire is just leagues better than any micro a player can do most of the time, and makes things like actually spreading your tank fire out much more efficient, and enables tank/marine/etc damage to be bumped up even more, since really good micro will be required to maximize the damage output. Tanks don't have anywhere near the overkill as they did in BW. Making it so that a Tank line doesn't need to be watched so that all your Tanks unload on only a few units and waste an immense amount of damage. If Tanks were to get any buff, they'd need to remove smart-fire AI for them. Not that any unit should have it anyway.As far as any sort of viablity in TvP goes, that's just a result of Protoss being designed around countering the Tank. It almost feels like it was all done intentionally to avoid more Mech TvP like in BW. I just have to say that there isn't smart fire AI in the game as stated by Dustin Browder over a year ago. It only has a little delay between attacks which makes it so that tanks (or any other unit in the game) won't waste shots on a unit that is already dead. Link to the Q&A thread. It is in the multiplayer section.
It works out to be the same thing, whether you want to call it smart-fire or not. Maybe I shouldn't use the term 'AI' with it, but it is what it is.
They can remove it if they make Tanks ignore that delay.
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I think variety should be encouraged in every match-up to keep things interesting, I'm seeing it so that mech should be the strong, slow direct engagement-style option to bio's mobility. Now this thread is about TvP meching in WoL I believe, so I'm not going to post about some Carriers or some such stuff that could also be changed. A plenty of things could be changed in my opinion.
The weakness of the Siege Tank vs. Protoss renders mech invalid against them in mid to late game - or so I think - and this means it renders the entire factory tech path useless vs. them. Leaving only MMMGV for that part of the game. Now. We don't want to change the other match-ups at least in this conversation, so I can think of a few simple answers for this problem.
1, Give Siege Tanks an upgrade researchable at maybe armory, which gives them bonus damage vs. either Protoss units in general, or against shields. This doesn't change the other match-ups, and it doesn't change 111 since the upgrade comes later.
2, You could even make such an upgrade for all the mech units, if it seems necessary.
I don't have anything to offer to the discussion about how you could use tanks as they are now. At least you can 111 with them, that's something, but I don't think they offer anything valuable vs. P besides that. I have tried a lot, and mostly for that lost games where I was ahead.
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On December 23 2011 01:40 Tropical Bob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 20:22 Mehukannu wrote:On December 22 2011 11:22 Tropical Bob wrote:You forgot to mention smart-fire AI: On December 21 2011 22:29 Sm3agol wrote:
I am still a major proponent of removing all "instant attack" animations(marine, tank, immortal...are there any more?) because smart fire is just leagues better than any micro a player can do most of the time, and makes things like actually spreading your tank fire out much more efficient, and enables tank/marine/etc damage to be bumped up even more, since really good micro will be required to maximize the damage output. Tanks don't have anywhere near the overkill as they did in BW. Making it so that a Tank line doesn't need to be watched so that all your Tanks unload on only a few units and waste an immense amount of damage. If Tanks were to get any buff, they'd need to remove smart-fire AI for them. Not that any unit should have it anyway.As far as any sort of viablity in TvP goes, that's just a result of Protoss being designed around countering the Tank. It almost feels like it was all done intentionally to avoid more Mech TvP like in BW. I just have to say that there isn't smart fire AI in the game as stated by Dustin Browder over a year ago. It only has a little delay between attacks which makes it so that tanks (or any other unit in the game) won't waste shots on a unit that is already dead. Link to the Q&A thread. It is in the multiplayer section. It works out to be the same thing, whether you want to call it smart-fire or not. Maybe I shouldn't use the term 'AI' with it, but it is what it is. They can remove it if they make Tanks ignore that delay.
Even easier is to give it an invisible projectile so they can over-kill -_-.
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Seeing how much it is being used in TvT and TvZ the basic assumption going into such a discussion should be that it is one of the stronger units in the game.
I'm going to go over TvT and TvZ rather quickly, as I think the tank is pretty fine as it is right now in those matchups:
-) TvZ: Tanks are good against nearly everything. If they had more splash or damage, they would simply go from "strong" to "completly OP" when fighting banelings, zerglings and roaches. I guess the game could still be balanced, but I prefer to see a little bit of diversity in compositions which is the case right now (rather than pure tank vs pure antitank play).
-) TvT: Tanks are the best unit imo in this matchup. By far. 99% of the all strategies are developed around "when" someone has "how many" tanks "where". That being said the unit is just fragile enough against mobile play to make other strategies than "I have more tanks --> I win", possibile. At least on certain maps and as long as people still make a lot of mistakes with pure mech.
-) TvP: OK, Im gonna go with an unrealistic, but very macrogame focused thought here at the start: I can't see any reason, why you wouldn't want to have at least a few tanks in a maxed supply/upgrades composition vs Protoss.
- they have the ability to siege and force an opponent to "come out and play", which is one of the most important abilities for a composition to have
- their dps/supply is higher than the dps/supply of marines/marauders, assuming a clumped opponent (maxed scenario! opponent is probably using colossi!)
- they can focus sentries and templar extremly quickly (the "better" ghost?)
- they are not as bad against chargelots, archons and immortals as a lot of people think. Furthermore, the other part of your army (MMM) should tear those units apart anyways. (they are not the "problem units" in the lategame to begin with)
so that being said, I think the main reasons why terran don't build tanks are:
- no upgrades for them
- no ressources for them
- no timing window to tech to them and their upgrades
- they don't fit very well into the mobile style of MMMVG
- warp in and blink make it terribly hard to be in the right position with tanks
So in conclusion, I think that the tanks stats are fine and the last thing that has to be changed to see more tankuse in TvP. I rather think that it is either not possible to play a standard game in which you get to them, or more likely (imo): the way to get there is too "technical" and has not been figuered yet.
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Error uploading post due to crappy computer. NUKED.
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On December 22 2011 21:06 PaleBlueDot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 20:42 ThomasHobbes wrote:
PaleBlueDot -> I'm going to break this down one last time.
If Terran, in the TvZ matchup, is either balanced or overpowered, how on earth is buffing the tank, an essential unit in both of Terran's main TvZ compositions, a good idea in terms of balance?
If the change in damage is small, how does this change TvP? If the damage buff is sizeable, how does this not effect TvZ (both in terms of the roach, ultralisk, and speedlings before tanks get +1)?
Can you answer these questions? Yes or no?
You keep going on about how the Ultralisk does fine against tanks. Great, but how does making the Ultralisk less effective (by increasing tank damage) help its already signifcant problems against bio units?
You keep talking about the changing metagame, that isn't relevant. If TvZ is balanced now (and lets, for your benefit, assume it is), buffing the tank will not help maintain that balance due to the factors already mentioned (roach, ultralisk, and pre-upgrade speedlings).
I'm sorry that you don't get more powerful tanks because you want them. Too bad. The TvZ match-up often centers around tanks as a key unit. Making tanks more powerful adds another buff to what is an already very powerful unit / race. It would require counter-buffs which would make the entire balancing act hopelessly complex.
It will not happen, it should not happen, and time will continue to demonstrate this. Stop what amounts to blatant race pandering . Your reasoning (We don't know if we haven't tried it, so lets try it) can be extended to any change, regardless of magnitude. Yes, I want to try out some hydralisks with no light tag, additional range, and twice the speed. Sucks to be me. Yes yes TvZ just got balanced, absolved you of any former difficulty, and changing anything in the game from this point forward will damn us all to stagnation. You dont contribute, your points were invalidated twelve posts ago, and you throw out claims of "race pandering" [bias], when you are absolutely covered in it. I do not know if you will ever get this message, as you apparently have great difficulty reading the other ones. Lets not read that a buff to +armored would not effect speedlings at all and would be negligable against something with 500HP that is made en masse and is getting a charge upgrade. Lets not read that I am not a pro player and do not have the forsight required to absolutely know that increasing tank damage will straight up break the matchup (how did you aquire this ability? bitten by a radioactive idra?). Here is my question. By your own words, you believe TvZ at this point in time is balanced. Cool. So the logic goes: Balanced TvZ ---> Buff to tank changes balance ----> game is irreparably broken and cannot be reverted if it is to much. but also: Balanced TvZ ---> Buff to ultralisk because it was "underperforming" ---> no change in matchup balance. game is fine. Enjoy the thread, im done wasteing my time talking to someone who does not wish for any improvements, just the intent to spread his opinion that any change to terran is a bad change for you zerg.
I see, so the buff is not going to effect anything in TvZ, at all, because you are confident it won't.
That's convincing.
You have repeatedly ignored my concerns about roaches, and your utralisk argument boils down to (yeah, I don't think it'll effect them despite taking substantially more damage).
This thread is a thinly veiled attempt to say "buff terran", that's fine, but don't pretend it's anything other than what it is.
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I honestly think that TvP tanks have no problems at the moment. The reason that is is becuase if tanks were to be more effective against Protoss, terran would be massivley imbalanced. As it is, marines and marauders have been the comp for terrans in that matchup for a year pretty much with almost no variation until recent. The seige tank is still just as good of a unit as it was in BW imo (better control mechanics, viking/tank sight range, ect.) They do less damage then BW but that is to be expected. if they did 70 damage, the game would be broken. "Tanks are good for poking..." I think that is comeplelty wrong becuase if u get more then 4 or so, and spread well, its a very intimdating army. Ive been using marine tank in TvP with a very high win rate (75-80%) in tht match up. I dont have replays of my success but just try out tanks in the mid/ late game. They are still realy good (of course get some vikings/ghost as called for) ((Top 8 Diamond most of the time, although went on losing streak a week ago and ended season at 39 i think.))
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Tanks feel pretty good in the other matchups. In TvP they don't. The main problem is the zealot. Charge naturally kind of spreads them and the zealots don't take much damage anyway. They are cheap, effective meat shields against tanks. Immortals are really no problem in comparison.
Maybe battle hellions will help with this. I really hope that battle hellions do even more damage though. Extra armor is ok, and changing the shape of the flame damage to a cone might help against zealots and stuff, but really they will need more damage I think. That wouldn't be too bad for workers or lings as they can run away from battle mode hellions, so it would only be extra damage when defending, not being offensive. Sounds good to me! 
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siege tank become less and less effective in the late game in tvz.
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On December 23 2011 04:42 phisku wrote:
siege tank become less and less effective in the late game in tvz.
no they don't.
It just doesn't make sense to have more than 10-15 tanks at once, as you still need supply for other units (marines, medivacs in biomech and hellions thors in mech) and gas for other units (ghosts and vikings in particular, to a lesser extend marauders and thors). At least if your opponent doesn't stay on pure ground compositions.
If he plays anything groundbased (which they hardly ever do... Muta/ling/bling, broodlord/infestor), there is no reason to ever stop/reduce tank production in TvZ.
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I might be wrong but, weren't Siege Tanks incorporated gradually into the mix as Ultras were on the field in BW? I think SK Terran style has been one of the major trends for some time, though I've seen mech utilized in TvZ as well, as in form of Vulture Tank Science Vessel. I remember an epic long JvF match on a map with space tile where Flash had a shitton of siege tanks and slow pushed JD.
TvZ is allright imo, what we need is the viability of Tank in TvP. And I hope Warhound, Shredder and Battle Hellion will see to that.
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One thing I've been thinking about is giving tanks bonus damage versus massive could help. This would make them a real "counter" to archons and Colossus. The only side-effect would be increased damage against ultralisks, but I don't think that would affect TvZ that much. Something like 20% extra damage versus massive like Blizzard gave to void rays.
Also, I really really wish they would remove Colossus and give Protoss the Reaver which would solve so many issues. Colossus is just the tanks retarded brother with better damage and mobility right now :/
It's too bad Blizzard makes things based on appealing to the most players rather than weighing good game design as well.
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Russian Federation899 Posts
i think they will buff tanks in hots...
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On December 22 2011 12:26 PaleBlueDot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 12:20 Kyadytim wrote:
As a side note, the Missile Turret is the primary anti-air of BW mech style PvT. Turrets cost 25% more in SC2, and although they are stronger than their BW predecessors, they have the same coverage, so for the same minerals invested in Turrets, BW Terrans get 25% more area covered with detection and AA. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nLmCZ.png) He also gets to absorb damage, be instumental in actually moving out against really anything air related late game, and being pretty cheap to boot. I gotta take a break from watching this thread, too many points and counterpoints make you tired :/
Haha, god, I can't believe I did that. I was talking about the same early game through to the end of the early midgame, when Missile Turrets are the only deterrent for Zealot bombs and Scouts.
The Goliath was a good GtA unit, but unless facing heavy air (2 base carriers) or in the later game when an Arbiter or Carrier transition is normal, gas was much better spent on more Tanks.
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On December 23 2011 05:11 Scila wrote:
One thing I've been thinking about is giving tanks bonus damage versus massive could help. This would make them a real "counter" to archons and Colossus. The only side-effect would be increased damage against ultralisks, but I don't think that would affect TvZ that much. Something like 20% extra damage versus massive like Blizzard gave to void rays.
Also, I really really wish they would remove Colossus and give Protoss the Reaver which would solve so many issues. Colossus is just the tanks retarded brother with better damage and mobility right now :/
It's too bad Blizzard makes things based on appealing to the most players rather than weighing good game design as well.
The reaver would be soooo imbalanced in sooo many ways, (if it was included similarily to it's broodwar counterpart):
-) bio would become unplayable due to the extreme scarab damage
-) reaver drops in SC2 >>> reaver drops in broodwar, due to the amount of workers per base/their stacking
-) smart targeting AI and intelligent scarabs would improve its strenth
-) the bigger unit amounts and their clumping would make it OP
so in conclusion the reaver (just like the siege tank had) would need huge nerfs statswise... so it would need a redesign to stay generally playable (or it would turn out to become a niche unit, which you can only build in certain scenarios, f.e. against bio or baneling play) --> back to colossus (or to another unit that is completly not the reaver)
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Pff why this nonstop whining about why the tank should play a pivotal role in PvT. BW and SC2 are just not comparible. Why do people never whine that bio was unplayable in BW TvP but do they whine about mech being bad in SC2 TvP??
The game is just different, the fact that bio is so much stronger vs protoss simply means the tank couldn't be as strong. Most matches tend to gravitate toward one style, that has been the case in BW and that's been the case in SC2, not every unit is simply as good in each matchup. The tank is already pretty awesome in TvT and TvZ and plays a decent role in TvP being good for certain openings etc.
The entire post is basically just a hidden balance whine about mech play. I'm glad mech is not too strong at the moment as it's simply not such an interesting style in sc2. Mech was more fun stylewise in BW because the vulture is more interesting then the hellion from a micro point of view and goliaths vs air is more interesting then vikings vs air. For SC2 they've chosen quite a different path so the game simply can't be changed to the same, buffing tanks would make terran imbalanced again, nobody should want that.
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On December 23 2011 05:44 Markwerf wrote:
Pff why this nonstop whining about why the tank should play a pivotal role in PvT. BW and SC2 are just not comparible. Why do people never whine that bio was unplayable in BW TvP but do they whine about mech being bad in SC2 TvP??
For me from spectacor point of view because right now TvP is really boring matchup to watch.
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On December 23 2011 05:44 Markwerf wrote:
Pff why this nonstop whining about why the tank should play a pivotal role in PvT. BW and SC2 are just not comparible. Why do people never whine that bio was unplayable in BW TvP but do they whine about mech being bad in SC2 TvP??
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Because while I suppose some people enjoy seeing Terran essentially zerg [verb] around the map vs. Protoss, you don't really have the production capability to recover from 1 bad fight, unlike the zerg. So to get around that, I would like to see a strong more macro focused Terran composition that as of yet, has not been discovered.
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On December 23 2011 06:26 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 05:44 Markwerf wrote:
Pff why this nonstop whining about why the tank should play a pivotal role in PvT. BW and SC2 are just not comparible. Why do people never whine that bio was unplayable in BW TvP but do they whine about mech being bad in SC2 TvP??
For me from spectacor point of view because right now TvP is really boring matchup to watch.
Yeah, deathballs and bio that either evaporates or blows up the Protoss is really boring for viewers. Also it means that TvP is about 1 big battle rather than small steps with possibility of true come backs.
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The problem with the tank in TvP isnt really the tank, its the immortal that rapes the crap out of it.
either that or the lack of spidermines
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EPT
