EPTthat just came into my mind... like would they even do something about it??
[D] Discussing the Siege Tank - Page 9
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xTrim
472 Posts
that just came into my mind... like would they even do something about it?? | ||
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PandaMonk
United States300 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On December 24 2011 02:01 terranghost wrote: On topic I think the primary reason that tanks are not as good as they were is they do not have very good meat shields with the addition of the collosus. Vultures did very well against light and could still buffer pretty well against armored due to mines. Hellions can still buffer a bit vs armored but not as well but they are better vs light units that tanks are not supposed to be good against the real problem however is that a critical point of collosus just kills everything in one hit so your meat shields move forward to take the hit they all melt in one hit and then zealots move in and kill everything. I always thought that instead of getting rid of KA they should of gave storm like a 5-10 sec cooldown after warped in and then changed the collosus like they did the tank make it do reduced damage to light or something so the collosus wouldn't be good against everything. On a side note ive been experimented alot more with mech and instead of getting vikings as my AA I'm getting ravens and is strangely affective at least against the people I play against. (Note a reactored starport pumping out vikings for and a techlabed starport pumping out ravens will use the same amount of gas after factoring in the build time.) The ravens are useful against not only the air units they would build but can sit behind your army and occasionally throw down turrets in front of your tanks to bait charges and act as meatshields and they can throw down pdds behind your army which will still reach your tanks which makes them harder to feedback. If no templar are in the battle you can be more aggressive with your ravens and seeker missile key units. Of course I am not pro so I obviously not only is my micro and macro not good but neither is my opponents. And yes I know ravens can be fedback but as long as you keep them in the back of your army when templar are present they shouldn't get fedback too much. My personal opinion is that mech is not bad its just many pro terrans are too stubborn to play with it long enough to figure it out. Plus HOTS should be solving some of the mech problems hopefully. The many mechanics changes from BW to SC2 completely kill mech. In BW, shields take full damage from all attacks. In SC2, they don't. This has massive consequences. - In BW, vultures are only slightly inferior to dragoons in a straight up fight. The vultures do the full 20 damage per shot to shields while the dragoons do a pitiful 5 DPS to "unarmored." Compare this to SC2, where stalkers do 7 DPS to unarmored and the shields only take 8 damage from hellions. - In SC2 archons destroy tanks, in BW they get flattened by tanks because of the shield issue. - HTs take three hits to kill instead of two. - DTs take four hits to kill instead of two. (with upgrades) Zealots are also massively improved over BW zealots, on top of the immense shield mechanics change, they do substantially more DPS than BW zealots. BW zealots have an attack cooldown of 1.5, SC2 zealots have a cooldown of 1.2 and do 25% more DPS. Charge is also far superior to BW legspeed in getting the zealots next to the tanks that much faster, and also converts the blob of zealots from a blob taking massive splash damage to a line that takes little splash damage much quicker than BW legspeed does. Smartcast storm is the final blow. In BW, mass-storming relatively spread out tanks before your templar get picked off is exceedingly difficult, in SC2 it's trivial. SC2 storm does 20 DPS, compared to BW storm at 14 DPS and it takes two storms to kill tanks in both games. | ||
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MrMcIntosh
Australia91 Posts
Infested Immortal? :3 | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On December 28 2011 02:09 Resistentialism wrote: Many people seem to gloss over the fact that protoss could often fly dropships and sometimes even arbiters over top of a terran army with general impunity. Any factory time spent making goliaths was factory time not spent making tanks, which sort of would defeat the point up until you saw a carrier switch. In SC2 terran always has a ton of barracks that are always making marines and they always have a reactored starport. Mech TvP balance in SC1 depended on weaker air units and weaker anti air, especially on the terran's part. If you want to rebalance the tank you need to take a long hard look at the marine, viking and banshee. You do realise that goliaths dont require the machine shop addon, so your not actually cutting into tank production time. I personally think that the best way to buff the tank with to increase its damage in the following manner. Current tank damage: vs Armored (+15): 50/55/60/65 (Wep Upgrade 0/1/2/3) vs Anything else: 35/38/41/44 Revised tank damage: vs Massive (+35): 65/70/75/80 vs Armored (+20): 50/55/60/65 vs Anything else: 35/38/41/44 The introduction of using a bonus damage modifier to "Massive" types gives us two advantages in buffing the tank while not breaking other matchups. Firstly in the sc2 universe, there are quite a few units that have the "Massive" attribute. These units all follow similar characteristics in the fact that all of them have a shitton of hp (350+). Now this creates problems where they also act as meat shields (in conjunction with other units specifically designed to tank e.g zealot/immortal for instance), absorbing alot of siege tank fire. Just to put things into perspective, an immortal is bad enough for the siege tank yet we have an archon that has no armoured attribute meaning it will take 11 tank shots (no weps up) while doing negligible splash. So with that in mind, by doing damage to massive type units, we not only avoid the need to greatly increase the damage modifier to armored units but effectively make the tank much more effective in the TvP matchup. Putting things into perspective: Current Tank: [assuming 0 upgrades] 35 to light, 50 to armored TvT vs. Marauder: Kills in 3 shots vs. Tanks: Kills in 4 shots vs. Thors: Kills in 9 shots TvZ vs. Roach: Kills in 3 shots vs. Ultralisk: Kills in 11 shots TvP vs. Zealot: Kills in 5 shots vs. Stalker: Kills in 4 shots vs. Immortal: Kills in 15 shots vs. Colossus: Kills in 8 shots vs. Archon: Kills in 11 shots Revised Tank: [assuming 0 upgrades] 35 to light, 50 to armored, 65 to massive TvT vs. Marauder: Kills in 3 shots vs. Tanks: Kills in 3 shots (-1 from 4) vs. Thors: Kills in 7 shots (-2 from 9) TvZ vs. Roach: Kills in 3 shots vs. Ultralisk: Kills in 8 shots (-3 from 11) TvP vs. Zealot: Kills in 5 shots vs. Stalker: Kills in 3 shots (-1 from 4) vs. Immortal: Kills in 15 shots vs. Colossus: Kills in 6 shots (-2 from 8) vs. Archon: Kills in 6 shots (-5 from 11) It will mean that units like the ultralisks and thors will take fewer shots to take down (they did take an incredible amount of hits before dying) but with the current metagame + compositions used by most T players, this isn't going to pose many balance problems. In regards to TvP, it definately makes the tank more viable due to the increase in firepower against units that caused unintentional problems to the tank. The reliance on ghosts to counter units such as the archon (a key unit in any TvP mech) is reduced due to the archon being less effective against tank fire. Another key unit such as a colossus is now susceptible to both viking and tank fire. Now a P cannot just spam zealots/archons/immortals (3 units that hard counters tanks) since hellions will deal with zealots, tanks will eat archons and immortals aren't great when ghosts are incorporated to the mech army. It will force the P to come up with more interesting army compositions (even making carriers viable), emphasis the importance of unit control/army engagements against the mech army and make the damn matchup more diverse for the spectators/players!! Thoughts? | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On December 28 2011 19:47 kyllinghest wrote: I think the introduction of the battle hellion in HotS will be a massive buff to the tank, as we will finally have a unit that can take care of those pesky zealots. Tanks already do well against stalkers and colossus. I think the main problem with the tank is that it requires sooo much target fireing to be effective. This can be very hard when you have to micro your bio aswell. Oh, I look so much forward to the battle hellions! Chances are we are not still using tanks in TvP in HotS since it would be just better to spend the gas on more warhounds due to it being effective against mechanical targets and most of the protoss higher tier units are mechanical. Tanks really doesn't have anything to add to that ball, which needs to be mobile so it can battle protoss army effectively because of the warp ins and that stuff. Plus a lot of players would rather spend some of the gas for ghosts anyway for the emp if anything the new mech in HotS will probably look a lot like MMM+VG ( you know Hellions to deal with zealots, warhounds to deal with stalkers, scv pulled for repairing, vikings for colossus and ghost for that extra damage plus to deal with HT and archons). This is what I guess is going to happen if the new units stay the way they were in blizzcon, but for all I know blizzard might have already scratch such ideas like warhounds and battle hellions. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
What are tanks vulnerable to? 1) Units getting on top of the tanks making them kill each other with splash damage. 2) Flanks Battle hellions help with 1) since they might actually take hits long enough for the front line of zealots to be killed off. Stalkers and sentries don't scare tanks. It will also take about 1000 immortal shots to kill a battle hellion. Shredders help with 2). I'm thinking you could set up 2 layers of shredders as flank protection so even if the chargelots kill off the first layer with charge they still take massive damage from the second layer. Tanks are a lot better on high ground. Sadly, a lot of maps don't even have high ground outside of the main bases. Xel'naga caverns and Shakuras Plateau have nice high ground positions in the middle of the map but I can't think of any other ladder maps that have useful high ground positions. The center of Antiga is high ground, but it's accessible by ground on all sides so it's not a true high ground imo. | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
I play tanks in condjunction with bio sometimes and try to achieve the same thing and just turtle like mad with bio+tanks and then slowly add orbitals and replace your scv with more ghosts and tanks. | ||
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frantic.cactus
New Zealand164 Posts
Day9 seems to be saying that mech isn't just about the siege tank. More like its the sum of its parts. This is really interesting as its well known that factory units are crap against any air play so ikings are essential. Seems to me like Banshees are just as essential for the mech composition | ||
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Machiavellii
Norway28 Posts
that is just from a gold league zerg POV though im guessing it changes in the higher levels of play. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
I think it's more important to improve splash rather than single target damage. The reason why tanks work well in tvt and tvz is because the units in these match ups are in general smaller compared to protoss units, which makes splash more effective. So the added bonus of this secondary splash would need to be relative to the unit size difference between the match ups.. I guess something like +7%,+14% and +21% stronger splash at the different upgrade levels. Or just a flat +% buff at weapon level 2 or something. I'd also like to see the damage modifier changed from 35 (+15 to armored) to 50 (-15 to light), just because it's unreasonable that the Archon should fill the exact same damage absorbing function as Immortals. I'm not sure how that would effect the other match ups though - I guess ghosts would die faster to tanks..? On January 06 2012 13:00 frantic.cactus wrote: Watching the mech TvP daily right now. Day9 seems to be saying that mech isn't just about the siege tank. More like its the sum of its parts. This is really interesting as its well known that factory units are crap against any air play so ikings are essential. Seems to me like Banshees are just as essential for the mech composition I didn't find that daily helpful or insightful at all. I brought up how good chargelot/archon is vs mech in the chat, and he just brushed it off with something like "opening with banshees can dictate the protoss unit composition," which is of course true -- you dictate the protoss right into making HTs, which easily leads to chargelot/archon/ht. On January 06 2012 20:11 Machiavellii wrote: i dont know much about the tanks in tvp, but from a gold league zerg standpoitn they are far too easy to use, place some tanks marines and thors in the middle of the map and you are pretty much untouchable, requires no control what so ever. that is just from a gold league zerg POV though im guessing it changes in the higher levels of play. Focus firing with siege tanks is a huge part of tvz, not to mention how easily tanks without support get run over by speedlings, sniped by muta, etc.. so you're right in your assumption that what you experience in gold league doesn't carry over to the higher leagues. | ||
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AndreiDaGiant
United States394 Posts
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
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david0925
212 Posts
Terran versus tanks: more tanks with better positioning and siege timing Zerg: Zerglings flank early game, Broodlords late game Protoss: Zealots and Immortals (Which are the biggest complaints in this thread). I honestly think right now the issue of Protoss being OK with tank buffs is the fact that Marines already make life extremely hard as it is, despite Storms and Colossi. It makes Stargate play completely invalid, which is what we need to use if Immortals and Zealots are toned down as suggested. Personally speaking I'll gladly trade marine nerf for siege tanks buff, but I don't really think terran plays will like that at all. | ||
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