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PvZ Sim City

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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CaptainHaz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States240 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-10 09:13:38
December 10 2011 09:13 GMT
#1
Hi, this thread is meant to kind of a mini guide about sim city in pvz, it's going to be fairly short and simple. I've seen quite a few threads on the subject, but they kind of only discuss a few basic wall offs, which are fine, but I feel like an explanation of the build grid and how it functions might be useful to players.

So how is this supposed to work exactly?
Sim city, particularly in the PvZ matchup, is very useful. A lot of builds become much stronger when proper building placement is utilized. 1 gate expand in particular almost is impossible to execute without having a wall to your natural. So with this thread, I don't intend to teach you every possible useful building placement location (I will show a few though), but more so provide a basis that you can use to construct walls accordingly.

What is the build grid?:
Basically it is a feature within starcraft two that adds basically a grid to the playable area so you can see how buildings interact.Having this enabled allows for a much easier time to construct building layout that is without holes.

If you don't have this featured enabled, here is a short explanation of how to do so and what you should see.
How to enable:
+ Show Spoiler +
If you open up the options menu and click on the Gameplay tab, you will see an option to enable the build grid.[image loading]

Now if you go back into the game and try to make a building, you will notice that your buildings are outlined with a light brown grid when you try to place another building.
[image loading] The building you are intending to place, is surrounded by a white grid.


Now that we have that enabled, lets go over how the grid itself works exactly.

What do all these lines mean?
So using another screenshot of the grid in action, let me explain what this does for you:
[image loading]
  • Brown Squares: These squares indicate locations where you cannot place buildings. Ramps, non-buildable/pathable terrain, places with buildings there already, areas with creep, for expansions that are too close to minerals.
  • Green Squares: These show the amount of space that your building is going to take up. For our purposes, our buildings will be usually 2x2 or 3x3 in terms of size though obviously bases would be much larger than this.
  • Clear Squares: These are areas where you can place your buildings. Empty space.

Cool, so with that information in hand, lets focus on how we can use this to our advantage.

What to do about buildings?
So the way the build grid works is that buildings that are touching sides in the build grid prevent unit movement through them. For example:
[image loading]
The white circles show where the buildings are connected by the sides of the hexes, which prevent units from moving through them. This is important because in many cases, an attempted sim city will end up not working due to a mistake in placement. Also note that the build grid's brown hexes provide a reference point on where to place my first building. Parts of the terran that are not buildable on, are often areas that are not pathable in terms of being able to run through.
Buildings connected by corners will not prevent all units from moving through them. When this happens, units that are 1x1 in size will still be able to pass through, larger however units will not. Shown below:
[image loading]
The red circle shows where the mistake in the placement was. It is highly important that if you wish to leave a gap in your wall so you can leave a zealot there or move around more quickly. Leave a full one hex gap. DO NOT connect buildings by corners. This small space allows for zerglings to easily run by unmolested, and nobody likes unmolested zerglings.
So keep in mind that the buildings need to be connected by their sides in the build grid in order to provide a good seal.

How to secure your ramp using buildings:
So basically, in PvZ, you want to be able to secure your ramp in such a way that you can wall off using a zealot and use it as a gate. Cool, there are a couple ways to do this. The first and most common kind is using 2 3x3 buildings to leave a one hex gap at your ramp. Here's an example of that:
[image loading]
The white circle indicates where the two buildings are connected by the hex sides, allowing for a seal. Keep in mind when doing this wall at your ramp, your buildings should only be touching by one hex side. The thing regarding hex corners I mentioned earlier is an easy mistake to make here, be careful!
Another wall off that is pretty common is the pylon/gate(or gates) wall. This requires just a pylon and a gate to create. Shown below:
[image loading]
In this situation, both the pylon and the gate should be hugging the ramp. Also, placing the zealot properly with this wall is a real pain, so keep that in mind. I added in an optional point in this placement style that I think is kind of important. When constructing a wall, if your zealot is flanked by two buildings instead of a building and unpathable terrain, it prevents an extra zergling from hitting him. The bottom right setup in the above example is one way to achieve this kind of wall. You can achieve the same thing using a standard wall off as well by placing another pylon a hex away from your building that is not touching your ramp and moving your zealot back to block it. The build grid should be intuitive enough to figure it out without a screenshot .
Now that our ramp is secure, we can start to focus on securing our natural.

The great wall of nexus:
So you've decided to not carrier rush the zerg and would like to secure your natural. Let's see what building placements can help with that. Generally speaking most maps have a natural that is close enough to your ramp so that you can setup a sim city from your ramp to your expo nexus. This forces zerglings to run around your wall and nexus to swing into your main. This is really useful since your stalkers and sentries can sit behind the wall and take pot shots at the lings while they are trying to close the gap. This is fairly straightforward on most maps. Basically you want a pylon in such a position so that within its radius, a straight line can be formed from the outer edge of your ramp, to your nexus. Seen below:
[image loading]
In this particular sim city, I did not leave a gap for my zealot. Had I wanted to do so all I would need to do is shift my second gate down by one hex. The build grid is really helpful in terms of being able to achieve the preferred building placement. I would also like to comment that it is best to keep your pylon as far back from potential attackers as possible most of the time. If you would like to use a pylon instead of a gateway in a sim city, make sure that you have another pylon to power the structures in case the one that is part of the wall goes down. I do this on metal in the pictures, but these ideas can be applied to all maps, give it a shot!
[image loading]
Note the stargate in production, this is a normal part of a nexus cancel carrier rush build. Oh, and the lings are being shot at from safety thanks to the wall.
I'd also like to state that these concepts also apply to forge expands. Here is an example of what I consider the most optimal building placement with Nexus First/Forge expand:
[image loading]
Note that the plyon is safe and further back. The cannon could be moved back further as well if desired, but keeping it forward is better imo. The key point is to avoid using a pylon as a part of your wall when doing a forge expand.
Now that you've got a few basic ideas, go apply them!

Building placement on a City-Scale:
With the build grid enabled and a basic understanding of sim city, you can use this to shut down movement in parts of the map and force engagements out of your opponents. Here are just a few examples, if you have any that pop out, feel free to share them and I will add the screenshots to the OP:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

These kinds of sim cities limit zerg army movement. You can force engagements or create chokes for better ones. It also can prevent the zerg from just retreating if you catch his army on the other side of the sim city.

Anyway, that's all I have for tonight, going to update this a bit tomorrow.
All of us warned you of the big white face.
NeedsmoreCELLTECH
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Netherlands1242 Posts
December 10 2011 11:48 GMT
#2
Awesome post, gonna re-read this when I've had another energy drink
Get huge or die mirin | Diamond on LoL
Ahelvin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
France1866 Posts
December 10 2011 11:54 GMT
#3
Nothing quite new over here for Master and GM players, but I'm sure a lot of players up to Diamond can learn a lot from this very nicely done guide !

Thanks for this addition, will help my PvZ a lot when I offrace .
Join the Liquipedia Zerg Project ! PM me for more information :).
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
December 10 2011 12:00 GMT
#4
I'd also like to state that these concepts also apply to forge expands. Here is an example of what I consider the most optimal building placement with Nexus First/Forge expand:

Knowledge that your "optimal building placement" is really just "optimal placement for spawning at 3'oclock position" will start to make you understand that it's quite the rabbit hole.

Hardly optimal per se, just a good example of building placement within a forge-fast expand.

Sad you barely touched on the build with such reliance on building placement (FFE/Nexus First). Gateway-Core walloffs is pretty wide-spread now, maybe for new players it deserves a look. But you won't find "Why would I consider moving the first cannon back?" and "Why the second cannon?" or even "Would my walloff look like this on other maps?" answered here.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
CaptainHaz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States240 Posts
December 10 2011 15:16 GMT
#5
On December 10 2011 21:00 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'd also like to state that these concepts also apply to forge expands. Here is an example of what I consider the most optimal building placement with Nexus First/Forge expand:

Knowledge that your "optimal building placement" is really just "optimal placement for spawning at 3'oclock position" will start to make you understand that it's quite the rabbit hole.

Hardly optimal per se, just a good example of building placement within a forge-fast expand.

Sad you barely touched on the build with such reliance on building placement (FFE/Nexus First). Gateway-Core walloffs is pretty wide-spread now, maybe for new players it deserves a look. But you won't find "Why would I consider moving the first cannon back?" and "Why the second cannon?" or even "Would my walloff look like this on other maps?" answered here.

Would like to ask you to re-read this:
I don't intend to teach you every possible useful building placement location (I will show a few though), but more so provide a basis that you can use to construct walls accordingly.

I agree that I haven't covered forge expand adequately and will expand more on it today. However, it makes little sense to explain every possible layout on every map since that doesn't really provide a good foundation. I will give a few examples of how to properly lay out your expansion, but ideally after reading this players should be able to kind of construct that after just looking at the natural. I just used metalopolis in this example because it just seemed like a good map to demonstrate wall offs on.
All of us warned you of the big white face.
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
December 10 2011 15:27 GMT
#6
Wouldn't say I exactly find this to be news, but it's still a nice post, and it's probably really good for lower level players to learn from.
CaptainHaz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States240 Posts
December 10 2011 15:53 GMT
#7
On December 11 2011 00:27 HaXXspetten wrote:
Wouldn't say I exactly find this to be news, but it's still a nice post, and it's probably really good for lower level players to learn from.

I'm sure a lot of this is widely known already. However, I've seen like, clan mates and people who stream who either consistently mess up their wall or just don't wall to their natural. I don't think there are many situations where you would not want to wall off your natural so I kind of wanted to briefly explain how to do so.
All of us warned you of the big white face.
Quochobao
Profile Joined October 2010
United States350 Posts
December 10 2011 16:00 GMT
#8
Note that the plyon is safe and further back. The cannon could be moved back further as well if desired, but keeping it forward is better imo. The key point is to avoid using a pylon as a part of your wall when doing a forge expand.
Now that you've got a few basic ideas, go apply them!


Do not put your canon back. The canon must hug the building, or else hatch cancel roach bust can hit your forge without being in range of the canon. (You won't have any range unit but a stalker by then too, so there is no way to survive).

The second canon is needed to cover the entire probe line (also safer against all in). Otherwise, a few lings can run by and harass the farthest mineral patches and gas.
Best or nothing.
CaptainHaz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States240 Posts
December 10 2011 16:09 GMT
#9
On December 11 2011 01:00 Quochobao wrote:
Show nested quote +
Note that the plyon is safe and further back. The cannon could be moved back further as well if desired, but keeping it forward is better imo. The key point is to avoid using a pylon as a part of your wall when doing a forge expand.
Now that you've got a few basic ideas, go apply them!


Do not put your canon back. The canon must hug the building, or else hatch cancel roach bust can hit your forge without being in range of the canon. (You won't have any range unit but a stalker by then too, so there is no way to survive).

The second canon is needed to cover the entire probe line (also safer against all in). Otherwise, a few lings can run by and harass the farthest mineral patches and gas.

I disagree with this, there are certain situations where it makes sense to have a cannon that is placed further back. For instance, there are some positions where regardless of how far forward your cannon is, roaches can still hit your wall uncontested. If your cannon is further back, it can stay out of range until your wall is busted down which allows time for a void or your gateway research to finish. I think it is pretty situational.

If you look Nani vs Leenock from MLG you'll notice his cannons are placed further back as well (the emergency ones). Your first cannon is rarely going to be your main line of defense against a roach bust, but your next few will be, which should be placed further back.
All of us warned you of the big white face.
Flaiker
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany235 Posts
December 10 2011 16:11 GMT
#10
Basically this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221763
...
-BladeOfAuir-
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada2 Posts
December 10 2011 16:13 GMT
#11
Nice post! This would be amazing vs Zerg counter attack.

CaptainHaz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States240 Posts
December 10 2011 16:15 GMT
#12
On December 11 2011 01:11 Flaiker wrote:
Basically this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221763

For some reason when I searched, this did not come up. Good thread, though I feel that a few of the examples have a couple mistakes. The second pylon is placed badly.
All of us warned you of the big white face.
InvXXVII
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada242 Posts
December 10 2011 16:16 GMT
#13
This is just a suggestion to imrpove the thread. Maybe include some examples of sim cities on specific maps because the way u wall off varies so much from map to map. Again just a suggestion. Great article!
A good loser is still a loser.
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
December 10 2011 16:26 GMT
#14
I make sure to molest all of the zerglings that enter my base. Yes, yes I do. xDDD
A time to live.
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
December 10 2011 16:26 GMT
#15
nice post
beep boop
paintfive
Profile Joined September 2011
785 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-10 16:35:39
December 10 2011 16:30 GMT
#16
http://imgur.com/a/37m5p here you go made this a while back
follows mostly what youre talking about, pylons in the back and 1x1 hole to prevent ling runbys

oh yeah, the brown grids connecting thing dosent hold true on some maps. ex: top spawn on xel.

needs the cannon or lings can pass by.
[image loading]

ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
December 10 2011 17:07 GMT
#17
On December 11 2011 01:30 paintfive wrote:
http://imgur.com/a/37m5p here you go made this a while back
follows mostly what youre talking about, pylons in the back and 1x1 hole to prevent ling runbys

oh yeah, the brown grids connecting thing dosent hold true on some maps. ex: top spawn on xel.

needs the cannon or lings can pass by.
[image loading]



I really dislike forge FE on Xel naga though to be fair. The second cannon covers the mineral line from ling run bys but not the second gas. Furthermore it provides no extra protection against roaches as they are ranged units. This kind of cannon placement was awesome in BW when all you had to worry about ultra early on was lings but we need to worry about roaches in sc2 as well. This makes FFE on wide natural maps very very hard. I know the pros try to do it and like to do it but they do it for the economic edge and corner cutting they need to really eek out any advantage they can.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
December 10 2011 17:41 GMT
#18
but even among pros, when Zergs see FFE on xel naga they usually just punish it by getting early roaches
beep boop
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
December 10 2011 20:37 GMT
#19
This guide is woefully incomplete without an explanation of how to cancel your wall at the last minute and carrier rush.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
December 10 2011 20:41 GMT
#20
Thanks for this guide, I've been wanting something like this for a while!
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
December 10 2011 20:42 GMT
#21
AMAZING WORK!!

But may I make a suggestion that u spoiler all the pictures? :D
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
Gara
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada435 Posts
December 10 2011 20:44 GMT
#22
This is an amazingly useful guide! You have no idea how many times I've failed a forge fast expand due to poor walloff on Metalopolis.

On December 11 2011 05:37 kcdc wrote:
This guide is woefully incomplete without an explanation of how to cancel your wall at the last minute and carrier rush.


SPESHUL TAKTIKS
paintfive
Profile Joined September 2011
785 Posts
December 10 2011 21:41 GMT
#23
On December 11 2011 02:07 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2011 01:30 paintfive wrote:
http://imgur.com/a/37m5p here you go made this a while back
follows mostly what youre talking about, pylons in the back and 1x1 hole to prevent ling runbys

oh yeah, the brown grids connecting thing dosent hold true on some maps. ex: top spawn on xel.

needs the cannon or lings can pass by.
[image loading]



I really dislike forge FE on Xel naga though to be fair. The second cannon covers the mineral line from ling run bys but not the second gas. Furthermore it provides no extra protection against roaches as they are ranged units. This kind of cannon placement was awesome in BW when all you had to worry about ultra early on was lings but we need to worry about roaches in sc2 as well. This makes FFE on wide natural maps very very hard. I know the pros try to do it and like to do it but they do it for the economic edge and corner cutting they need to really eek out any advantage they can.


It's definently risky to FFE on a map like Xel or Shattered. But the 3rd is so difficult for zergs to take, I think it is often worth the risk.
Dhalphir
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1305 Posts
December 11 2011 01:28 GMT
#24
All very basic stuff but excellent because its most often the basic stuff that doesn't actually get explained by anyone.
Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!!
Ihsahn
Profile Joined April 2010
Chile132 Posts
December 11 2011 01:42 GMT
#25
Great Post, really lots of necessary tips for starting players.
thanks!
nadaesimposibleniunawea
OxyFuel
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada195 Posts
December 11 2011 03:52 GMT
#26
This has really helped with my walls. I personally don't like to forge fe on metal and xel naga though.. I feel it's much to hard to hold roach busts and such as the roaches can just walk around the side and snipe a cannon and have a turkey shoot on the probes and nexus.
Flash | Boxer | qxc | KawaiiRice | LuckyFool | Avilo
PlacidPanda
Profile Joined September 2011
United States246 Posts
December 11 2011 04:08 GMT
#27
Awesome post! I've been having problems with my sim city on open choke maps and this will help a lot!
Squirtle Hwaitting!!
Quartal
Profile Joined April 2011
140 Posts
December 11 2011 07:48 GMT
#28
I've read this 3 times, so if it's there and I've missed it I must be stupid.... but I think you forgot to mention that buildings must border a Nexus on two hexes, otherwise lings and probes can get through.
madmax12ca
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada2 Posts
December 11 2011 09:06 GMT
#29
Awesome. Thanks for the info, Helpful for a newbie like myself.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
December 16 2011 12:56 GMT
#30
On December 11 2011 00:16 CaptainHaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2011 21:00 Danglars wrote:
I'd also like to state that these concepts also apply to forge expands. Here is an example of what I consider the most optimal building placement with Nexus First/Forge expand:

Knowledge that your "optimal building placement" is really just "optimal placement for spawning at 3'oclock position" will start to make you understand that it's quite the rabbit hole.

Hardly optimal per se, just a good example of building placement within a forge-fast expand.

Sad you barely touched on the build with such reliance on building placement (FFE/Nexus First). Gateway-Core walloffs is pretty wide-spread now, maybe for new players it deserves a look. But you won't find "Why would I consider moving the first cannon back?" and "Why the second cannon?" or even "Would my walloff look like this on other maps?" answered here.

Would like to ask you to re-read this:
Show nested quote +
I don't intend to teach you every possible useful building placement location (I will show a few though), but more so provide a basis that you can use to construct walls accordingly.

I agree that I haven't covered forge expand adequately and will expand more on it today. However, it makes little sense to explain every possible layout on every map since that doesn't really provide a good foundation. I will give a few examples of how to properly lay out your expansion, but ideally after reading this players should be able to kind of construct that after just looking at the natural. I just used metalopolis in this example because it just seemed like a good map to demonstrate wall offs on.

It's hard to go forward with "This is the most optimal building placement" in a thread where you seek to confine yourself to a minor role. You provide very little disclaimer as you go on to describe your most optimal building placement for Metalopolis in this position. Okay okay, that's fine, I'll concede that for sake of argument. You give an example, claim it's the most optimal, but don't go into why it is, or even hint that its most optimal in that spawn location but needs to be reworked in others. If this were indeed a mini guide on simcity, you would go into some of the questions that arise in your only-provided-example on Metalopolis. Must I restate this to clarify my point? I did read your quoted disclaimer, however, it is regrettably insufficient for any newcomer to this forum. I will separate these, hoping you will see my point.

Why would I consider moving the first cannon back?
The cannon could be moved back further as well if desired, but keeping it forward is better imo.
You invite the reader in, but never state why someone would desire this, or why you decided having it forward is the better idea. Cmon, now.
Why the second cannon? You put a big fat arrow to it on a picture, yet never introduce why it exists. Heck, I know it is to protect against harass on your mineral line, and even more defense of the Nexus and ramp. Would a newcomer, that appreciates your newcomer-friendly approach realize this? No, he/she is expected to take it on jpeg-faith, not even a word of description at all. This is to improve your mini-guide, not to insult you. To point out a lack of description of even your mini-example.
Would my walloff look like this on other maps? I must refer to my previous point to illustrate why this is a question deserving an answer in the thread. You photoshop explicitly that you want a second cannon in your example optimal FFE on Metalopolis. Yet, you do not give its reasoning for existence. How is the casual reader to skim through a common gate-core walloff to the FFE and discern the key tenets of FFE, if you pronounce no reasoning? Maybe Shakuras and Taldarim look very difference in respects to that second cannon (they do, and the reasons for adding it on these maps are worthy of consideration). Oh well, I hope you know I want your guide to be more newbie-friendly than you have made it, and think it a worthy contribution to deserve added improvement. Thanks.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
HaruRH
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore2780 Posts
December 16 2011 13:18 GMT
#31
On December 16 2011 21:56 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2011 00:16 CaptainHaz wrote:
On December 10 2011 21:00 Danglars wrote:
I'd also like to state that these concepts also apply to forge expands. Here is an example of what I consider the most optimal building placement with Nexus First/Forge expand:

Knowledge that your "optimal building placement" is really just "optimal placement for spawning at 3'oclock position" will start to make you understand that it's quite the rabbit hole.

Hardly optimal per se, just a good example of building placement within a forge-fast expand.

Sad you barely touched on the build with such reliance on building placement (FFE/Nexus First). Gateway-Core walloffs is pretty wide-spread now, maybe for new players it deserves a look. But you won't find "Why would I consider moving the first cannon back?" and "Why the second cannon?" or even "Would my walloff look like this on other maps?" answered here.

Would like to ask you to re-read this:
I don't intend to teach you every possible useful building placement location (I will show a few though), but more so provide a basis that you can use to construct walls accordingly.

I agree that I haven't covered forge expand adequately and will expand more on it today. However, it makes little sense to explain every possible layout on every map since that doesn't really provide a good foundation. I will give a few examples of how to properly lay out your expansion, but ideally after reading this players should be able to kind of construct that after just looking at the natural. I just used metalopolis in this example because it just seemed like a good map to demonstrate wall offs on.

It's hard to go forward with "This is the most optimal building placement" in a thread where you seek to confine yourself to a minor role. You provide very little disclaimer as you go on to describe your most optimal building placement for Metalopolis in this position. Okay okay, that's fine, I'll concede that for sake of argument. You give an example, claim it's the most optimal, but don't go into why it is, or even hint that its most optimal in that spawn location but needs to be reworked in others. If this were indeed a mini guide on simcity, you would go into some of the questions that arise in your only-provided-example on Metalopolis. Must I restate this to clarify my point? I did read your quoted disclaimer, however, it is regrettably insufficient for any newcomer to this forum. I will separate these, hoping you will see my point.

Why would I consider moving the first cannon back?
Show nested quote +
The cannon could be moved back further as well if desired, but keeping it forward is better imo.
You invite the reader in, but never state why someone would desire this, or why you decided having it forward is the better idea. Cmon, now.
Why the second cannon? You put a big fat arrow to it on a picture, yet never introduce why it exists. Heck, I know it is to protect against harass on your mineral line, and even more defense of the Nexus and ramp. Would a newcomer, that appreciates your newcomer-friendly approach realize this? No, he/she is expected to take it on jpeg-faith, not even a word of description at all. This is to improve your mini-guide, not to insult you. To point out a lack of description of even your mini-example.
Would my walloff look like this on other maps? I must refer to my previous point to illustrate why this is a question deserving an answer in the thread. You photoshop explicitly that you want a second cannon in your example optimal FFE on Metalopolis. Yet, you do not give its reasoning for existence. How is the casual reader to skim through a common gate-core walloff to the FFE and discern the key tenets of FFE, if you pronounce no reasoning? Maybe Shakuras and Taldarim look very difference in respects to that second cannon (they do, and the reasons for adding it on these maps are worthy of consideration). Oh well, I hope you know I want your guide to be more newbie-friendly than you have made it, and think it a worthy contribution to deserve added improvement. Thanks.


I believe it is not his duty to tell newbies on the reason to build a second cannon. He simply shows a picture of where to place the second cannon. His duty in this thread is to teach new players on how to sim city optimally. The second cannon can be explained by the thread on 'Forge FFE'.

Also, are you expecting him to tell you how to wall off in every single map? He only pulled a map out of the box and proceeded to show examples of how to place buildings. hug them on the walls, make 1 hex overlay etc. this is self-explanatory. After being shown on how to strategically build LEGO pieces, do you expect the instructor to show even more examples of that technique over and over again? No. It is a guide.
It is fucking D4 and you are still alive as a CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN. This is how fucking terrible scum thinks you are - Koshi
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
December 20 2011 11:03 GMT
#32
On December 16 2011 22:18 HaruRH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 21:56 Danglars wrote:
On December 11 2011 00:16 CaptainHaz wrote:
On December 10 2011 21:00 Danglars wrote:
I'd also like to state that these concepts also apply to forge expands. Here is an example of what I consider the most optimal building placement with Nexus First/Forge expand:

Knowledge that your "optimal building placement" is really just "optimal placement for spawning at 3'oclock position" will start to make you understand that it's quite the rabbit hole.

Hardly optimal per se, just a good example of building placement within a forge-fast expand.

Sad you barely touched on the build with such reliance on building placement (FFE/Nexus First). Gateway-Core walloffs is pretty wide-spread now, maybe for new players it deserves a look. But you won't find "Why would I consider moving the first cannon back?" and "Why the second cannon?" or even "Would my walloff look like this on other maps?" answered here.

Would like to ask you to re-read this:
I don't intend to teach you every possible useful building placement location (I will show a few though), but more so provide a basis that you can use to construct walls accordingly.

I agree that I haven't covered forge expand adequately and will expand more on it today. However, it makes little sense to explain every possible layout on every map since that doesn't really provide a good foundation. I will give a few examples of how to properly lay out your expansion, but ideally after reading this players should be able to kind of construct that after just looking at the natural. I just used metalopolis in this example because it just seemed like a good map to demonstrate wall offs on.

It's hard to go forward with "This is the most optimal building placement" in a thread where you seek to confine yourself to a minor role. You provide very little disclaimer as you go on to describe your most optimal building placement for Metalopolis in this position. Okay okay, that's fine, I'll concede that for sake of argument. You give an example, claim it's the most optimal, but don't go into why it is, or even hint that its most optimal in that spawn location but needs to be reworked in others. If this were indeed a mini guide on simcity, you would go into some of the questions that arise in your only-provided-example on Metalopolis. Must I restate this to clarify my point? I did read your quoted disclaimer, however, it is regrettably insufficient for any newcomer to this forum. I will separate these, hoping you will see my point.

Why would I consider moving the first cannon back?
The cannon could be moved back further as well if desired, but keeping it forward is better imo.
You invite the reader in, but never state why someone would desire this, or why you decided having it forward is the better idea. Cmon, now.
Why the second cannon? You put a big fat arrow to it on a picture, yet never introduce why it exists. Heck, I know it is to protect against harass on your mineral line, and even more defense of the Nexus and ramp. Would a newcomer, that appreciates your newcomer-friendly approach realize this? No, he/she is expected to take it on jpeg-faith, not even a word of description at all. This is to improve your mini-guide, not to insult you. To point out a lack of description of even your mini-example.
Would my walloff look like this on other maps? I must refer to my previous point to illustrate why this is a question deserving an answer in the thread. You photoshop explicitly that you want a second cannon in your example optimal FFE on Metalopolis. Yet, you do not give its reasoning for existence. How is the casual reader to skim through a common gate-core walloff to the FFE and discern the key tenets of FFE, if you pronounce no reasoning? Maybe Shakuras and Taldarim look very difference in respects to that second cannon (they do, and the reasons for adding it on these maps are worthy of consideration). Oh well, I hope you know I want your guide to be more newbie-friendly than you have made it, and think it a worthy contribution to deserve added improvement. Thanks.


I believe it is not his duty to tell newbies on the reason to build a second cannon. He simply shows a picture of where to place the second cannon. His duty in this thread is to teach new players on how to sim city optimally. The second cannon can be explained by the thread on 'Forge FFE'.

Also, are you expecting him to tell you how to wall off in every single map? He only pulled a map out of the box and proceeded to show examples of how to place buildings. hug them on the walls, make 1 hex overlay etc. this is self-explanatory. After being shown on how to strategically build LEGO pieces, do you expect the instructor to show even more examples of that technique over and over again? No. It is a guide.

Maybe if he recommended second thread for how to FFE. I suppose you would support arrows to where structures go on a blank map? Gateway arrow here, Core there. It's not a terrible post, but it still leaves much to be desired. Explanation without justification in multiple instances.

(And no, of course I don't think he should explain every walloff. Just the principles that he introduces--Second Cannon here, etc. I hope a newcomer to the game from reading this thread can see this discussion and realize from my comments the important points that were missed and must be sought elsewhere.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Tazerenix
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia340 Posts
December 20 2011 11:08 GMT
#33
Yes! You put in information about walling the third on TDA. This is something I barely ever see protoss players do that I do all the time. It's absolutely great to defend your third from Roach and Ling attacks, and In the even that they have hydralisks you can sit behind your wall and shoot them with colossus and range. I do a 5 gateway variation (moving the wall up a few hexes) with a good number of cannons behind. Means you don't need to worry about counters nearly as much.
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