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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Can terran employ similar strategies mid-late game? How can you overcome the inherent difficulties that terran has in tech switching? Different and expensive production structures. 3 separate upgrade paths If it were realistic to do a tech switch, what factors would make it successful? In what situation would an opposing player be vulnerable to such a tactic? | ||
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gabapenteado
Brazil37 Posts
In a somewhat realistic scenario, hiding a tech switch could be a solution, though i find it extremely difficult to pull off. Also, i think that due to building time limitations, and money spent on production structures, an tech switch can't be performed reactively, thus reinforcing the point that it can only be done to surprise a player. Also, take my words lightly, as i am only a platinum player. | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
Stuff like that. Although a switch from bio to mech is not feasible imo... | ||
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Ragnarok87
United States55 Posts
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
Other switches in TvT can work too, such as switching into bio if your opponent spreads too thin, or marauders if they go for too many hellions, but they're not really "gotcha" like switches. I like to throw down a bunch of naked raxes when I have a good max and am banking minerals because I can use them to switch quickly if I spot an opening (and marines are always nice to have). | ||
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TG Manny
United States325 Posts
If you go one particular route and get your upgrades for it, IE getting 1/1 marines for a relatively early timing attack off of double-engy bay will say "HEY I am going to be playing BIO" since you'll want to continue upgrading and keeping the upgrade lead... Let's say the attack fails to make a killing blow and you want to get some more tanks to contain/starve the opponent...well you have to have an armory for 2/2 so you might as well start researching mech weapons/armor on top of your bio upgrades. Now you may be transitioning to more mechy infrastructure but you still will have powerful bio forces to use for drops/other general harassment. So I stand by what I have stated, Terran doesn't tech switch, Terran transitions. | ||
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
On November 22 2011 05:41 Ragnarok87 wrote: Yes, Terran can tech-switch and should. This is where "add-on switching" comes into play. My strategies involve a rather large tech switch either entering or in the mid-game. Example: opening reactor hellion vs Zerg to make him build roaches and then switching into marine/tank. To do this you switch the add-on and build a tech lab on the factory (or the rax while making hellions while getting stim and combat shields). Tech switching only works early game where u didnt invest as much money. So reactor hellion opening into marine tank is ok. But lets say something like mid to late game where u alrdy spend the upgrades and you want to go full bio to full mech. Yes u can tech switch, but u have to invest ALOT for this. As in, its so much that its better to just stick to your normal tech route and invest more money in it for units. Example: I have 6 rax to use bio with 1/1 upgrades. I want to switch to full mech but i need like 3-4 factories (Add ons are no problem since i can use rax addons), and i have to restart mech upgrades since its at 0/0. If i switch to mech, My 0/0 upgrades will be the biggest handicap whenever there is a fight initially unless i stall long enough. Also note by going full mech, all the upgrades i have spent (Shell + c-shield + stim + attack and armor upgrade) is basically useless resource i spent temporarily. That also includes all the 6 rax i spent = useless. Thats alot of resource i spent for just tech switching. Zerg can tech switch easily due to having all production facilities as 1 building. Terran is the exact opposite of that, u need many different production facilities to make units. The only real viable tech switch at the late game is when terran transitions into sky terran. But thats about it | ||
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Waah
United States120 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:39 Willzzz wrote: You can often lose a TvZ or a TvP to a quick tech switch, obviously scouting is key here, but if you don't spot it in time it can be devastating. Can terran employ similar strategies mid-late game? How can you overcome the inherent difficulties that terran has in tech switching? Different and expensive production structures. 3 separate upgrade paths If it were realistic to do a tech switch, what factors would make it successful? In what situation would an opposing player be vulnerable to such a tactic? From mid-late game, the production facilities shouldn't be very expensive (although it's nice to have more to begin with, as time is a resource. If tech switch involves reactors for example, it could be an issue). If the game is still in the mid stages, upgrades shouldn't make or break the game. After all, Terran tech switches often involve units that are mainly used for their abilities, or you are tech switching because that unit is effective against their composition to begin with (which makes up for the lack of upgrades). The biggest hindrance for me is time up to this point, to be honest. If the game is late enough, say a split-map scenario, you could just turtle & harass with expendable units while tech switching/upgrading--no rush there (at least in Plat). Obviously, it's risky if you're tech switching without any reasonable defense and if the opponent scouts it right away. That's more like crossing your fingers and hoping it works. I guess having dominant map control (to keep the opponent from pushing out) and some form of fortification helps in tech switching. It's hard to be vulnerable to a tech switch unless the guy didn't scout at all. With that said, one can still be vulnerable to a tech switch if he/she is led to committing too much into a certain composition from scouting something. That person may not have the necessary tech or production facilities up to deal with a tech switch. A simple example (not relevant to the matchup at hand, sorry) is the PvZ stargate opening (to force hydras) into colossus transition. I guess casters would say something like "dictating the pace of the game"? And can this be considered a tech switch? I did use the word "transition" after all. But really, the stuff above were/are almost natural transitions or openings. From what I see, these "tactics[tech switches]" that the "opposing player [is] vulnerable to" is either risky play or bad scouting by the opponent. With some effort into scouting, more times than not will the opponent be not vulnerable. Therefore, unless you enter the game with a specific opening that makes the opponent do "x", then follow up with a tech switch "y" that is effective against "x", "y" feels more like (i.e.) "he has no detection, I should go cloaked banshees!" kind of "tech switch," rather than something with a clear plan and reasoning behind it. In the above example, if the opponent got detection in time, you'd only be wasting resources (assuming we're not gosu and cannot control banshees like one, and digressed extremely far from an intended build order). Wouldn't you have more success with doing a build that makes the opponent do something that leads to them having a vulnerability that you can use for your own advantage? (something that is not a loss for you even when it's scouted). If you wanted to use cloaked banshees in your army, you can harass if the opponent has no detection yet, or try, then incorporate it into your army, as intended. To conclude, I think the fact that I'd like a planned "tech switch" more counts as a transition, rather than a tech switch. It feels like I didn't make a strong point and rambled more. Regardless, I hope you find it helpful. | ||
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rod-
Norway379 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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Huggerz
Great Britain919 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On November 22 2011 05:32 xlava wrote: Absolutely. Although I don't see many Terrans do it on ladder, if you see a Protoss going chargelot archon with no robo bay in sight, a tech switch to a 3:1 marine : marauder ratio can be absolutely devastating if you know how to emp and dodge storms. Stuff like that. Although a switch from bio to mech is not feasible imo... You're falling into their hands. Two robos can easily muster 4 collsai with 3-4 nexus chronoing, and your 'tech switch' just completely lost you the game. Terran have tech easements, not switches. We ease into something else...slowly. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
The main problem is bio. The only way bio is viable lategame is with heavy upgrades. 3/3 Marines can take on T3 units, but 0/0 Marines? Not a prayer. Plus you also need all the relevant miscellaneous upgrades: Stim, Shields, Shells, which further delays any tech switch. It's also difficult to switch between Factory and Starport tech because they share the same upgrade structure, the Armory, which costs a hefty amount of gas. Plus, both production facilities cost a lot of gas themselves. So in order to effectively tech switch, you need to cut quite a bit of gas from your army. This is made more problematic by the fact that there are few mineral-cheap units produced from either facility. The Hellion and Viking are the only two that come close. And while they are both very good "counter" units, they're useless in head-on engagements. The only type of tech switching I've seen done successfully is Reactor swapping, which is really just switching between Marines and Hellions as a mineral sink. The most common example being opening Hellions to force Roaches, and later swapping the Reactors to Rax to make Marines. The idea being it's okay for your infantry upgrades to be delayed because you forced your opponent to make less favorable units. The opposite can work pretty good too. The nice thing about Hellions is that because they have a high damage attack with slow cooldown is that they don't need attack upgrades very much. And because they can be repaired, that can help offset a lack of armor upgrades. So 0/0 Hellions are almost as good as 3/3 Hellions vs light units like Zealots, as long as they have Blue Flame. So it is possible to open Reactor-heavy MMM, and then in the lategame drop a bunch of factories and switch to Hellion + a higher tech unit that is good with even 0/0 upgrades (Such as Tank, Thor, or Banshee) | ||
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Slide
United States10 Posts
I remember doing this in season 1 vs Masters Zergs... If I remember correctly it went: 12 rax 13 gas 15 OC 16 supply 18 gas reactor on rax factory put the factory on the reactor, produce 4 hellions (force roaches, if not you have map control) use rax to build techlab, put fact on techlab, get siege mode, produce tanks starport put the starport on the reactor produce 2 vikings, go overlord hunting, snipe queens by landing (usually easier when you have 4 vikings) 2 more vikings put the rax on the reactor again, use naked starport to make a medivac After all this harass, zerg should be behind if you micro correctly... if you snipe overlords, a couple drones, make him produce units/tech. He might even rush for mutas on 2 base. Either way, if you play well you are ahead. Once you have 2-3 tanks, a handful of marines, and a medivac (and your hellions and vikings if you didn't lose them... which you shouldn't or it makes the push weaker). Take 3/4 of your scvs and put them on auto-repair, and all in. Vikings, seige tanks, and hellions can all be repaired you should hit and have crippled his economy enough for your marines to kill the mutas.... probably the vikings with repair can help. Other than that, it is most costly for terran to tech switch compared to the other races. | ||
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