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United States96 Posts
I for the life of me can't think of how to beat this composition, especially against a turtling toss. The zealots shut down lings, the immortals shut down roaches, the archons shut down roaches and mutas, and the high templar shut down basically everything on the ground and mutas. The only real counter to this is brood lords, but the way this guy plays, he gets 2 obs and is able to see when I'm getting a greater spire, allowing him to push out at that point.
Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/60438
I understand, he's teching pretty fast, but he has way too much defense to push up that ramp and gets immortals and ht tech pretty fast. I'm not sure whether a hydra creep highway push would come before high templars or archons, but even then he should have chargelots. I also don't want that to be my only options when dealing with this. I feel like I played pretty well in this game except for the part where I lose my third. I don't think that set me back too much, as my macro was decent except for at the end when it didn't really matter. I went for hydras as I thought the high templars would be the real threat to them as the roaches were in front. Unfortunately the storms did way too much damage he crushed my roach hydra army. I shied away from mutas since archons and ht can counter that really easily and he can just max a death ball of them while countering the muta harass.
I guess I'm just looking for solutions to that army comp that doesn't involve broodlords, since he could hit a timing before they can even come on the field.
Thanks.
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I used to run this composition until I realized that upgraded Speed Roaches and good engagement angles from the Zerg absolutely shut it down. Mutas also do well against it assuming you have competent Muta control and can keep him in his base. He won't have (as many) Stalkers as a typical army composition, so him putting an end to Muta harassment is going to be purely reliant on you screwing up and taking too much Storm or Archon damage.
It's not a composition you can be overly aggressive with because it doesn't have the staying power of Colossi and the Protoss player has to reinforce very aggressively with their weakest units. It also takes forever to get all of that out on 2 bases so you can deny 3rd bases for a while with good success.
You ultimately have to kill him with your reinforcements, and you should easily win that since your reinforcements are better than his (no more warp-in Storms). It's very susceptible to constant pressure considering they are relying on Storm for their AoE. If they have a single late-ish game battle without Storm, there's no way they can win it.
But ultimately Brood Lords are your end-game. Just find a way to Zerg him to death and make him burn Storms that don't do much.
It's also not the most nimble unit composition. Runby's and later game Nydus stuff is good.
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roach hydra could shut it down just fine if you engage on creep and have a good angle.
the problem with such a protoss composition is that it has a bit of everything: Zealot anti lings, immortal anti roach, storm anti hydra muta. To counter this you have to know the exact ratio of units therefore counter it with proper ratio of your own. It comes down to army scouting mid game which is almost non existence in most Zerg. Changelings and overseer help a lot in this case so use them.
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On November 18 2011 09:56 NB wrote:
roach hydra could shut it down just fine if you engage on creep and have a good angle.
the problem with such a protoss composition is that it has a bit of everything: Zealot anti lings, immortal anti roach, storm anti hydra muta. To counter this you have to know the exact ratio of units therefore counter it with proper ratio of your own. It comes down to army scouting mid game which is almost non existence in most Zerg. Changelings and overseer help a lot in this case so use them.
*Scouts protoss army*
Oh, so you've only got 9 immortals, so I need to be more hydra heavy. But then again you have storm so they'll just instantly die.. I guess more lings and roaches? But the zealots storms and immortals will just eat that up.. I guess some mutas.. But then again the archons you'll morph tear my mutas a new a**hole.. So I guess maybe uuhm.. THIS WILL DO! Engage!
Trade 120/200 for 5 zealots. REMAX! Trade 120/200 for 4 zealots.
GG
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Usually I go muta in zvp and when i scout this I know I'm pretty much screwed.
I'm thinking the best way to beat this strategy is simply infestor roach hydra because you have to FORCE enagagements because of the slowness of hydras. Infestors are the solution, by using fungal to hold down zealots/archons and then picking off with army you will eventually come out ahead. The fungal also helps prevent melee/short range attacks.
User was temp banned for this post.
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As NB have said, Roach hydra is the counter to this. Without colossus in the Protoss army you really do not have to fear; roach can trade effectively with zealot immortal as long as you have a good angle. That P cannot have that many sentry when he is also going HT.
Muta can be used to harass (since stalker is not common when you go both zealot and HT); but do not engage the archons and HT. Once you have multiple hatch to produce roach and the economy to support it, you can simply trade units with the P.
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Well, I'm only a diamond toss, but when I've used this comp in the past, roach/hydra, as you chose to go, has worked against me.
He claims in the replay that his sniping of your 3rd with 2 zealots lost you the game. I DO think he has a point. You both hit 100-supply around the same time. I find that this is usually the point in the game where the Zerg has a supply advantage.
During the 1 big engagement, he took the initiative as both of your armies were standing around barely within vision of each other. He hit some money storms. I have trouble advising on what you could have done, barring having taken him by surprise, or perhaps having run in with your roaches first to tank the storms. You had a nice concave, but he literally stormed your entire army.
After that engagement, you lose a handful of roaches to a bad rally and, imo, here is where you feel the limitations of having lost your 3rd: you have 1k minerals and only about 100 gas. His army is so zealot and archon heavy that lings aren't going to help you. At that point, if you had more gas to work with, you could have popped more hydras.
tl;dr I think losing that 3rd early on curbed the gas you had to work with and hampered your ability to re-pop with a serious army. That said, I think his ability to out-micro you by taking initiative and storming your whole army really lost you the battle. While his army comp might be part of the issue, the lost hatch and the severe psi storms were, imo, the game changers.
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while roach hydra is effective, it is important to note how quickly a protoss can transition into colossus (i play protoss) and then absolutely wreck you. basically, you have to stop him from getting a third, and be prepared to change your composition to deal with his quickly changing army
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On November 18 2011 11:16 Zestypasta wrote:
Yea, I know what you mean
This is the epitome of easy protoss.
Usually I go muta in pvp and when i scout this I know I'm pretty much screwed.
I'm thinking the best way to beat this strategy is simply infestor roach hydra because you have to FORCE enagagements because of the slowness of hydras. Infestors are the solution, by using fungal to hold down zealots/archons and then picking off with army you will eventually come out ahead. The fungal also helps prevent melee/short range attacks.
yea protoss is pretty dumb.
Yeah I agree with you, only race that utilizes almost every single one of their units, is forced to get all tiers of tech, and requires micro to win fights should not be able to beat mass roach or the maurader + marine, both tier 1 balls...
If you want to beat it trying starting with a t3 unit like broodlords... what counters broodlords? blink stalkers. What counters blink stalkers -> Lings, Hydras, Infestors. To deal with zealot heavy -> banelings..
btw, fungal doesn't work on massive units like archons.
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On November 18 2011 14:11 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 11:16 Zestypasta wrote:
Yea, I know what you mean
This is the epitome of easy protoss.
Usually I go muta in pvp and when i scout this I know I'm pretty much screwed.
I'm thinking the best way to beat this strategy is simply infestor roach hydra because you have to FORCE enagagements because of the slowness of hydras. Infestors are the solution, by using fungal to hold down zealots/archons and then picking off with army you will eventually come out ahead. The fungal also helps prevent melee/short range attacks.
yea protoss is pretty dumb. Yeah I agree with you, only race that utilizes almost every single one of their units, is forced to get all tiers of tech, and requires micro to win fights should not be able to beat mass roach or the maurader + marine, both tier 1 balls... If you want to beat it trying starting with a t3 unit like broodlords... what counters broodlords? blink stalkers. What counters blink stalkers -> Lings, Hydras, Infestors. To deal with zealot heavy -> banelings.. btw, fungal doesn't work on massive units like archons.
thats wrong, fungle hits everything, it only doesnt snare ultralisks but still does damage to them iirc.
as i protoss, when playing this comp i find drops to be very dificult to deal with. as hts and immortals move shit slow and cnat climb up and down clifs i have to rely on my stalkers to fend off any type of ling or roach drop. due to the gas heavy nature of the comp, my stalker count is usually very low and i end up trading inefficently. make sure you bring a overseer with you when u drop too cos the protoss could easily have dt tech. nydus also works great if u can catch the protoss off guard. use these tactics to stall while u get brood lords, which counters this comp very hard.
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On November 18 2011 14:25 mR.bONG789 wrote:
btw, fungal doesn't work on massive units like archons.
thats wrong, fungle hits everything, it only doesnt snare ultralisks but still does damage to them iirc.
That's right, fungal dmgs ultras, but doesn't snare them due to Frenzy
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Macro roach with upgrades. Engage on his half of the map so you have time to remax. Storm tickles roaches, zealots get kited, not enough immortals, gg. A lot of Zergs players let immortals scare them off of roaches, but you don't need to move away from roaches unless P has a LOT of immortals, by which time you should have broodlords.
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On November 18 2011 11:16 Zestypasta wrote:
Yea, I know what you mean
This is the epitome of easy protoss.
Usually I go muta in pvp and when i scout this I know I'm pretty much screwed.
I'm thinking the best way to beat this strategy is simply infestor roach hydra because you have to FORCE enagagements because of the slowness of hydras. Infestors are the solution, by using fungal to hold down zealots/archons and then picking off with army you will eventually come out ahead. The fungal also helps prevent melee/short range attacks.
yea protoss is pretty dumb.
User was temp banned for this post.
How do you go muta in pvp? 
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Im no pro, so what i say should be taken with a pinch of salt, but when you scouted him at the six minute mark, i would have made a round of lings from both hatches and gone for a run by into his main.
he didnt have too much defense at all, an if he had made the extra 2 cannons he would have been way behind where he was. he made his first units at 9 mins, until then he had probes, one cannon and one observer, so you'd have gotten 10 ling into his main, and then you could have taken down alot of probes, or the nexus if he pulled to his natural. his natural mineral line was also undefended, and he had one pylon powering his forge, gateway and cannon till about 8 mins. you could easily have run in and killed him.
alternatively, you could have gotten your 3rd as soon as you saw how far behind his tech was, i know you got it at around 9, but it could have been earlier. even at the 13 min mark, you could probably just have killed him, if you'd attacked and kept reinforcing. if your gonna make those units, then you should do something with them.
you also had 12 larva and 500 mins, which would have been useful.
once he had the 7 gates, charge, ht with storm, +3 ground and alot of immortals you were dead, but he shouldn't have gotten to that position so easily.
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EPT
