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On October 28 2011 07:45 iFluX wrote:
what ever do you mean you don't want to whine about game design/balance!? I'm so shocked ... Terran > Protoss,
Protoss > Zerg
Zerg > Terran
Anyways, the point is, like someone said up top, EMP is the Terran version of the Psionic storm, except that it casts instantaneously. It is very highly effective against ANY Protoss unit(s) grouped together.... I'm sure if you turtle up your seige tanks and use EMP, then kite, you will melt any Protoss player
My point was that how can a ability that requires no micro need SO much micro to be countered?
Also... Did you even mind to watch the replay? ._.
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On October 27 2011 18:19 Atreides wrote:
Yeah, Hellions are bad don't do. Chargelot-Archon is relatively good pretty early and gets weaker as the game goes on. Just don't attack into it, expand, upgrade, keep track of potential tech switches. Thing is, later when upgrades are equal, and you have a large ball the zealots get less and less dangerous as the available surface area relative to the amount of zealots decreases.
Its actually pretty bad late game (zealot/archon) so if he doesn't switch out you kind of just win if you survive.
You can cheat towards more marines and lots of medivacs to beat it better in a straight up fight if you want, obv marauders worth less. Finally, kiting still very important even if it doesn't feel like it. Charge has cooldown.
I don't know what level you are at, but interestingly enough it seems fairly common to open zealot archon and then transition quickly into colossus rather than storm to take advantage of medivac/marine/ghost overcommitments so its important to keep this in mind.
I feel completely the opposite. Charge-lot archon gets stronger as you get more upgrades and more units. Earlier it's relatively vulnerable since a timing push before charge finishes can cripple you.
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whenever i go against this build and i scout it as protoss i will just 4 gate and win. i really do not think that this is a viable build outside of tourney situation where you know your opponents well
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Generally speaking, most ppl agree that to deal with chargelot archon, you have to be more marine heavy, and in more ghosts, and many also say to upgrade faster also. Since you are going so marine heavy, because marauders aren't effective at all vs chargelots, you have to be wary of the big aoe threats (ht, colossus). The reasons for going fasters ghosts are pretty obvious since they counter archons hard and also do well with the natural immediate aoe threat (ht). One main thing you have to keep in mind is since you are going so marine heavy you need to really look out for the colossus switch because your marines will get eaten alive with just 2 colossi out on the field with no vikings.
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I don't really like to rely on throwing ghosts, since they don't hold on their own without a fair amount of micro. Thor actually do a very good job at nullifying archons, and they more or less ignore armor upgrades since their damage/hit is large. Don't get a lot of thor -- one or two at the most. But you need a gas dump when you're on 3 bases, and thor works most seamlessly with your game plan so far at that point.
Furthermore, against zealot/archon, their anti-air is weak, and you can often pick up thors and bring them home to be repaired.
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Not much more to be said about this,
proper kiting with MMM is really the answer to this. Don't try anything mech or whatever other people suggest, it's utter bullshit and doesn't work.
It can feel a bit unfair as MMM seemingly needs more micro then chargelot/archon/stalker but you just have to keep practicing the kiting, it's not that hard actually.
Also keeping up in upgrades is really important, being 1 upgrade behind for a small window is not too bad and unavoidable but you really want to hit 3-3 not much after P does.
Some aspects of the TvP matchup can make it seem a little dull at the moment and perhaps even unfair towards protoss.
Protoss lategame is somewhat easier to play because the unit composition does better without proper micro then terran's (not saying T needs more micro though). P macro lategame also becomes quite easy with gateways and the perfect gas outlet in templar's making it really easy to balance gas/minerals. T has no effective gas outlet thus has an extra thing to watch out for in managing the economy.
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On October 27 2011 18:05 ReligionLOL wrote:
he forgot the conclusion which is:
therefore, emp > terran
forgot QED
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I haven't used hellions tvp since patch, but I think they have some use. If you have money to spend, go ahead and get bf and a another factory or 2 (why not right?) and get a SMALL amount of them. If the late game, depending on size, i think 6-10 hellions have a lot of utility. Going hellions to counter the zealots is a bad idea, but that's not the point of them. They tank damage and deal good splash as the chargelots come barging in, and since they're faster than your bio, you can go straight into emp+stim while having a window before the charlots start coming after your marines.
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On November 26 2011 13:29 phiinix wrote:
I haven't used hellions tvp since patch, but I think they have some use. If you have money to spend, go ahead and get bf and a another factory or 2 (why not right?) and get a SMALL amount of them. If the late game, depending on size, i think 6-10 hellions have a lot of utility. Going hellions to counter the zealots is a bad idea, but that's not the point of them. They tank damage and deal good splash as the chargelots come barging in, and since they're faster than your bio, you can go straight into emp+stim while having a window before the charlots start coming after your marines.
This here, is what I would suggest as well.
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EPT
