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+ Show Spoiler [Replay] +
Hi, guys. I was wondering (after the AMA of MKP, PuMa and I-just-forgot-his-name-but-he's-awesome) how good/effective 14cc is against Protoss. In this game I went to MMM and super fast upgrades (since I had a super boost on my economy).
The real problem I faced was dealing with chargelots (although archons are a bit dangerous, the charge is just out of my actual skill to deal) - since I know I need to stim and kite, I tried it, but it's just not enough... Or at least not cost-effective.
I don't want to whine on game design (since this isn't a balance issue, to me), so I wanted to seek help.
I thank in advance for any advice given.
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SC2replayed.com or some other similar site next time please.
I'll take a look and edit this in a few mins.
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Not sure what league your in but even slow/bad kiting is moderately effective against chargelots. Don't try and rip out sick SeleCT micro just start kiting at a pace you are comfortable at. You can't let zealots sit there and whack on ya!
Good luck dudebrosauce.
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The key is EMPs. Even very quick 3/3 Chargelots with Archons, Stalkers, and Sentries will get eaten alive by mere MMM if you have a few Ghosts. EMP the Sentries first so that you can kite, and blanket the entire Protoss army with EMPs because it does an absurd amount of damage. Without a few Colossi or HTs (again, EMP) with Storm, even a highly upgraded Gateway army will melt to MMM.
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Well you just gotta kite, the chargelots will still get a good amount of hits off but if you are kiting the amount of time they are hitting you units are reduced, they don't get a chance to surround, and the slow archons have trouble catching up so he will have to reposition eventually giving you more free hits.
Also try to position marus in front of the rines, they tank more damage letting your rines stay alive longer to do the real damage.
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After the famously popularized Charglot/Archon style had circled its way around the community, i have seen alot more zealots in the TvP matchup. This unit composition seems to be very effective against the Rine/Rauder.
Try adding a reactor'd factory or 2 to add units to your MM ball. hellions do more dmg to the chargelots and can kite them with more ease.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
chargelot/archon>marine/marauder
marine/ghost>chargelot/archon
colossi>marine/ghost
marauder/viking>colossi
stalker/sentries>vikings
storm/feedback/forcefield/guardian shield>terran
emp>storm/feedback/forcefield/guardian shield
etc. etc. etc.
you just have to find the right composition 
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On October 27 2011 17:24 Ganseng wrote:
storm/feedback/forcefield/guardian shield>terran
emp>storm/feedback/forcefield/guardian shield
does not compute
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he forgot the conclusion which is:
therefore, emp > terran
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On October 27 2011 17:14 LFHaunt wrote:
After the famously popularized Charglot/Archon style had circled its way around the community, i have seen alot more zealots in the TvP matchup. This unit composition seems to be very effective against the Rine/Rauder.
Try adding a reactor'd factory or 2 to add units to your MM ball. hellions do more dmg to the chargelots and can kite them with more ease.
Have you tried that? Because I think its terrible especially since the BF nerf. The fact that you are
way behind on upgrades with the hellions doesnt help but its not effective even if you are not unless maybe with perfect control but I dont think its an option at all.
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Yeah, Hellions are bad don't do. Chargelot-Archon is relatively good pretty early and gets weaker as the game goes on. Just don't attack into it, expand, upgrade, keep track of potential tech switches. Thing is, later when upgrades are equal, and you have a large ball the zealots get less and less dangerous as the available surface area relative to the amount of zealots decreases.
Its actually pretty bad late game (zealot/archon) so if he doesn't switch out you kind of just win if you survive.
You can cheat towards more marines and lots of medivacs to beat it better in a straight up fight if you want, obv marauders worth less. Finally, kiting still very important even if it doesn't feel like it. Charge has cooldown.
I don't know what level you are at, but interestingly enough it seems fairly common to open zealot archon and then transition quickly into colossus rather than storm to take advantage of medivac/marine/ghost overcommitments so its important to keep this in mind.
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hi,
ok many ways to improve, and many mistakes on that game...
1. scouting : u 14 CC great, what about his reaction ? 4 gate, 5 gate, 3 gate robo push ? ur only little bunker coulnt hold any kind of allin
2. ok now he's not allin (u bet), so u go and attack ... good blind timing.
if he has B2, u should know u have eco and pop advantage cos of ur BO
9:20 u kill centries and stalkers ... u see his B2, u could go for probes as he withdraw ... get probes, wait for him to come down, and wait for him down of the choke, good way to engage -> u can win the game by eco damage on that push.
u're REPRO is not enough during the push .. u could have the same army waiting home...
u killed all his army, and probes -> greater eco and pop advantage, with good repro, u can go again with stim and CS... well
3. 16 min .. awefull decision making .. u're last push (13 min) was soso, but u killed probes again, U KNOW by this time, by the game plan etc that u are ahead in eco and pop... so u have a better production, and a huger army...
u kill his prisme ... what a huge advatange again ..
scouting problem again, SCOUT HIS ARMY, SCAN HIS ARMY for god sake
at 16 min, if u had scan his army (B2), u would have seen that is was not worth it going for his gold ... but just make a bilan, see his army size, take u're all army (the part u're microing, and the huge part back home), and aCLICK him
its the game again...
(look u have a bigger army, MM + 4 medick at home :s )
u're engagement here was so bad
and u saw archons -------> GHOST immedialty, its 17, its time for ghost anyways
4. 18 min, u know u hve bigger army, u stay in the middle for 2 minutes ....
scout with ur factory
your decision to switch ur rax to XLab is bad ... where marauder is good against chargelot ? are they good agains probes ?? marines are DPS ! marauders tanks and slow with CS, and crush stalkers ... keep marines heavy with chargelot
5 19 min u finally go, blindly, SCAN !!!!
generally, its never good to engage an P army with storm without ghost .. but if u feel confident (50 pop ahead), u can go
what an engagement..... u never should have lost this fight.. scan .. and PREPARE the fight ... find a good place to engage ... spread ur army as a concave around his ball, then stim aclick ..
here u go with a huge ball, u just move .. then stop and attack ... wtf
never engage like this, always concave ! specially when storm .. one storm on the ball and game over ..
this fight was awfull
one again it could have been GG this point
u could have send a drop before engaging ALSO
now it's long fight, with full marauder against chargelot ... ur army composition sucks...
get back, get more rines, ghost, and push again, u have still 40 pop ahead ............
drop i dont know .. stop this hell
6. 27:30, ok u have a better army composition (more rines, but no ghost) .. and u engage blindly, no scan, u stim so far too early, u dont see anything, u army is a ball ... and ur micro so mad, what are u doing with your marines, they are dps, dont move them all the time, the didnt shoot all the fight long (almost)
imagine the the fight with a scan and a spread, concave .. all chargelot runing in the middle with all rines shooting...
stim all together .. ur rines were useless ... ur medivack also, ur reinforcement also
28 min move order decimate ur reeinforcement
and GG
=)
i'm maybe hard dont be upset .. its for u !
hope it helps ..
but on that game, there are so many points to improve, most important his your decision making and fight engagement ...
SCAN to estimate army size/composition/position, if u're confident, CONCAVE UR army, and go
(try to kill his obs) ..
u had all game long advantage, and u built 2 planetary fortress .... OC werebetter here
watch tvp pro game, dont u see them scanning all the time to locate army ?
this is one key
-- if u have mkp, puma or whoever replay about ur 14 CC i'm intersted, thanks
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@beefITek
Thank you, sir. ^_^
- I really didn't think of an all-in (although I think 4gate would be suicide, since I'd have more barracks.. Pulling SCVs I think I could have held it).
- OC would be better if he drops DTs? My whole fear was drops/warps.
- My point with that reactor->tech lab transition was that I could slow more zealots. Not that you're wrong, by any means. I guess I learned that the hard way. T_T
I think I got the most important parts of what you said:
Build ghosts, more drops, more OCs. Have I missed anything?
About the 14 CC, I'm interested too. T_T
I only read that it was safe/powerful, but (clearly) I don't know where to go. I think mech maybe viable with this opening, since you economic advantage is so ridiculously high, you can spend in whatever you want and it'll be fine.
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On October 27 2011 21:06 k10forgotten wrote:
I think I got the most important parts of what you said:
Build ghosts, more drops, more OCs. Have I missed anything?
no !
the most important thing in ur game is :
scout his army, SCAN, estimate his army, estimate if u can crush him or not
see when u have the advantage
and TAKE BENEFIT of ur army, work on your fight engagement..
the worse part of ur play is not maccro, OC, nor composition (eventough it was bad), it's ur abitlity of knowing when ur army is superior, when u can end the game, and very important : how u engage the fight...
just scan, just make a small quick concave, , spread ur army around his ball.. then stim aclick and miccro
u lose fight with 50 pop advantage, but with good composition and placement, u should win a fight 20 pop disadvantage 
gl
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On October 27 2011 21:06 k10forgotten wrote:@beefITekThank you, sir. ^_^ - I really didn't think of an all-in (although I think 4gate would be suicide, since I'd have more barracks.. Pulling SCVs I think I could have held it).
- OC would be better if he drops DTs? My whole fear was drops/warps.
- My point with that reactor->tech lab transition was that I could slow more zealots. Not that you're wrong, by any means. I guess I learned that the hard way. T_T
I think I got the most important parts of what you said: Build ghosts, more drops, more OCs. Have I missed anything? About the 14 CC, I'm interested too. T_T I only read that it was safe/powerful, but (clearly) I don't know where to go. I think mech maybe viable with this opening, since you economic advantage is so ridiculously high, you can spend in whatever you want and it'll be fine.
o pior all-in pra levar nao eh 4 gate... 3 gate robo destroi 1,2,3,4 bunker...
eheh
---
the 4-gate is easy to hold as terran... the worst comes in a 3 gate robo all in.. due to the immortal buffed range, now more immortals hit the bunkers at the same time, combined with FF preventing reparis and gg...
when i scout 3 gate robo no expo i build 5 more bunekrs... bunkers on the high ground, bunkers behind, bunkers in front bunekrs everywhere... fill up the ones on high ground with marauders, the ones up front with marauders, the ones behind with mariens (the important ones are the marines ones, because they actually do good dps)
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On October 28 2011 01:09 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 21:06 k10forgotten wrote:@beefITekThank you, sir. ^_^ - I really didn't think of an all-in (although I think 4gate would be suicide, since I'd have more barracks.. Pulling SCVs I think I could have held it).
- OC would be better if he drops DTs? My whole fear was drops/warps.
- My point with that reactor->tech lab transition was that I could slow more zealots. Not that you're wrong, by any means. I guess I learned that the hard way. T_T
I think I got the most important parts of what you said: Build ghosts, more drops, more OCs. Have I missed anything? About the 14 CC, I'm interested too. T_T I only read that it was safe/powerful, but (clearly) I don't know where to go. I think mech maybe viable with this opening, since you economic advantage is so ridiculously high, you can spend in whatever you want and it'll be fine. o pior all-in pra levar nao eh 4 gate... 3 gate robo destroi 1,2,3,4 bunker... eheh --- the 4-gate is easy to hold as terran... the worst comes in a 3 gate robo all in.. due to the immortal buffed range, now more immortals hit the bunkers at the same time, combined with FF preventing reparis and gg... when i scout 3 gate robo no expo i build 5 more bunekrs... bunkers on the high ground, bunkers behind, bunkers in front bunekrs everywhere... fill up the ones on high ground with marauders, the ones up front with marauders, the ones behind with mariens (the important ones are the marines ones, because they actually do good dps)
I've never said that the worst would be 4gate. Just saying.
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if you know hes going chargelot archon then just addin some blue flame hellions with you mm ball. works pretty well with kiting. also now you can actually put the factory to some use
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On October 27 2011 17:24 Ganseng wrote:chargelot/archon>marine/marauder marine/ghost>chargelot/archon colossi>marine/ghost marauder/viking>colossi stalker/sentries>vikings storm/feedback/forcefield/guardian shield>terran emp>storm/feedback/forcefield/guardian shield etc. etc. etc. you just have to find the right composition
I just can't understand why people are saying that marines are better than marauders for killing zealots. They have good dps, but get SLICED by zealots.
the 4-gate is easy to hold as terran... the worst comes in a 3 gate robo all in.. due to the immortal buffed range, now more immortals hit the bunkers at the same time, combined with FF preventing reparis and gg...
when i scout 3 gate robo no expo i build 5 more bunekrs... bunkers on the high ground, bunkers behind, bunkers in front bunekrs everywhere... fill up the ones on high ground with marauders, the ones up front with marauders, the ones behind with mariens (the important ones are the marines ones, because they actually do good dps)
Its not the right thing to do. When you see a 3/4 gate robo all-in, you need to lift off your expand and stay in your main while waiting on medivacs.
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Im having good success vs the whole chargelot archon with mass ghost/rauder with snipe being amazing.
Heres how the battle should go, and u need alot of ghost im not talking 3-4 im talking 8-12 ghosts.
You always need ur ghosts in front at the start of the battle, they should always be on a Seperate hotkey from your bio.
Ghosts at the front to EMP everything incoming, then I run the ghosts behind the rauders and begin mass sniping. If you leave your ghosts in front there gona get owned to fast by the zeals and ull have no snipe left, so it is very crucial you let the rauders take the hits while the ghosts go snipe. Spread your snipes around the zeals dont double snipe em down, your ruaders rines take em down so much faster with that 1 snipe round.
Two other things to consider
1) Zeal/Archon/Collsi usually doesnt have storm because that kills all their own zeals.
2) When P goes this composition he usually completely stops all stalker production, this makes drops absolutely incredible. If you keep dropping his expos hes gona lose his economy which is a big part of this build because he is relying on reproduction to finish you off.
3) Dont stutter step your entire army, just do pieces of it at a time, now that charge always hits units a full on stutter step is not ideal in most situations, with practice youll get good at seeing parts of your army that the zeals are really hitting hard and youll be able to micro those.
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what ever do you mean you don't want to whine about game design/balance!? I'm so shocked ... Terran > Protoss,
Protoss > Zerg
Zerg > Terran
Anyways, the point is, like someone said up top, EMP is the Terran version of the Psionic storm, except that it casts instantaneously. It is very highly effective against ANY Protoss unit(s) grouped together.... I'm sure if you turtle up your seige tanks and use EMP, then kite, you will melt any Protoss player
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On October 28 2011 07:45 iFluX wrote:
what ever do you mean you don't want to whine about game design/balance!? I'm so shocked ... Terran > Protoss,
Protoss > Zerg
Zerg > Terran
Anyways, the point is, like someone said up top, EMP is the Terran version of the Psionic storm, except that it casts instantaneously. It is very highly effective against ANY Protoss unit(s) grouped together.... I'm sure if you turtle up your seige tanks and use EMP, then kite, you will melt any Protoss player
My point was that how can a ability that requires no micro need SO much micro to be countered?
Also... Did you even mind to watch the replay? ._.
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On October 27 2011 18:19 Atreides wrote:
Yeah, Hellions are bad don't do. Chargelot-Archon is relatively good pretty early and gets weaker as the game goes on. Just don't attack into it, expand, upgrade, keep track of potential tech switches. Thing is, later when upgrades are equal, and you have a large ball the zealots get less and less dangerous as the available surface area relative to the amount of zealots decreases.
Its actually pretty bad late game (zealot/archon) so if he doesn't switch out you kind of just win if you survive.
You can cheat towards more marines and lots of medivacs to beat it better in a straight up fight if you want, obv marauders worth less. Finally, kiting still very important even if it doesn't feel like it. Charge has cooldown.
I don't know what level you are at, but interestingly enough it seems fairly common to open zealot archon and then transition quickly into colossus rather than storm to take advantage of medivac/marine/ghost overcommitments so its important to keep this in mind.
I feel completely the opposite. Charge-lot archon gets stronger as you get more upgrades and more units. Earlier it's relatively vulnerable since a timing push before charge finishes can cripple you.
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whenever i go against this build and i scout it as protoss i will just 4 gate and win. i really do not think that this is a viable build outside of tourney situation where you know your opponents well
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Generally speaking, most ppl agree that to deal with chargelot archon, you have to be more marine heavy, and in more ghosts, and many also say to upgrade faster also. Since you are going so marine heavy, because marauders aren't effective at all vs chargelots, you have to be wary of the big aoe threats (ht, colossus). The reasons for going fasters ghosts are pretty obvious since they counter archons hard and also do well with the natural immediate aoe threat (ht). One main thing you have to keep in mind is since you are going so marine heavy you need to really look out for the colossus switch because your marines will get eaten alive with just 2 colossi out on the field with no vikings.
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I don't really like to rely on throwing ghosts, since they don't hold on their own without a fair amount of micro. Thor actually do a very good job at nullifying archons, and they more or less ignore armor upgrades since their damage/hit is large. Don't get a lot of thor -- one or two at the most. But you need a gas dump when you're on 3 bases, and thor works most seamlessly with your game plan so far at that point.
Furthermore, against zealot/archon, their anti-air is weak, and you can often pick up thors and bring them home to be repaired.
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Not much more to be said about this,
proper kiting with MMM is really the answer to this. Don't try anything mech or whatever other people suggest, it's utter bullshit and doesn't work.
It can feel a bit unfair as MMM seemingly needs more micro then chargelot/archon/stalker but you just have to keep practicing the kiting, it's not that hard actually.
Also keeping up in upgrades is really important, being 1 upgrade behind for a small window is not too bad and unavoidable but you really want to hit 3-3 not much after P does.
Some aspects of the TvP matchup can make it seem a little dull at the moment and perhaps even unfair towards protoss.
Protoss lategame is somewhat easier to play because the unit composition does better without proper micro then terran's (not saying T needs more micro though). P macro lategame also becomes quite easy with gateways and the perfect gas outlet in templar's making it really easy to balance gas/minerals. T has no effective gas outlet thus has an extra thing to watch out for in managing the economy.
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On October 27 2011 18:05 ReligionLOL wrote:
he forgot the conclusion which is:
therefore, emp > terran
forgot QED
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I haven't used hellions tvp since patch, but I think they have some use. If you have money to spend, go ahead and get bf and a another factory or 2 (why not right?) and get a SMALL amount of them. If the late game, depending on size, i think 6-10 hellions have a lot of utility. Going hellions to counter the zealots is a bad idea, but that's not the point of them. They tank damage and deal good splash as the chargelots come barging in, and since they're faster than your bio, you can go straight into emp+stim while having a window before the charlots start coming after your marines.
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On November 26 2011 13:29 phiinix wrote:
I haven't used hellions tvp since patch, but I think they have some use. If you have money to spend, go ahead and get bf and a another factory or 2 (why not right?) and get a SMALL amount of them. If the late game, depending on size, i think 6-10 hellions have a lot of utility. Going hellions to counter the zealots is a bad idea, but that's not the point of them. They tank damage and deal good splash as the chargelots come barging in, and since they're faster than your bio, you can go straight into emp+stim while having a window before the charlots start coming after your marines.
This here, is what I would suggest as well.
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EPT
