|
On August 26 2011 21:19 rmAmnesiac wrote:
so i'm supposed to reply politely with arguments vs someone who thinks he can just say terran have dominated since september simply because he's doesn't like losing to them?
the fact that terran have dominated for a year has very little to do if I do or do not like losing to them
On August 26 2011 20:40 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them? Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc. thanks for proving my point. not everyone who plays this game have the time to practise 5 plus hours a day and on a semi-pro/pro level of play. i reached masters as a random palyer and chose the race i enjoyed most. why should i have to outplay opponents to stay level with my opponents at this level simply because i don't play this game on gm, or pro level? how is that balanced?
Your claim that you have to outplay your opponents just to stay level is a completely biased QQ that has been proven wrong multiple times
Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily. Using HTs is much harder than using ghosts. Using marauders that have slow is also really not that challenging, etc.
And using drops is much easier than defending against them.
This is just the same as toss a-move with forcefields and storm...
Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
|
On August 26 2011 21:29 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 21:19 rmAmnesiac wrote:
so i'm supposed to reply politely with arguments vs someone who thinks he can just say terran have dominated since september simply because he's doesn't like losing to them? the fact that terran have dominated for a year has very little to do if I do or do not like losing to them Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 20:40 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them? Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc. thanks for proving my point. not everyone who plays this game have the time to practise 5 plus hours a day and on a semi-pro/pro level of play. i reached masters as a random palyer and chose the race i enjoyed most. why should i have to outplay opponents to stay level with my opponents at this level simply because i don't play this game on gm, or pro level? how is that balanced? Your claim that you have to outplay your opponents just to stay level is a completely biased QQ that has been proven wrong multiple times Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily. Using HTs is much harder than using ghosts. Using marauders that have slow is also really not that challenging, etc. And using drops is much easier than defending against them. This is just the same as toss a-move with forcefields and storm... Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
|
i agree with the people saying it will be unstable for some time, so much is changed in this patch, i recommend playing alot of ptr, testing this out, so blizzard will get enough results. Otherwise we will have to survive those changes for a few month  . Alot will be affected if you look at a single part of the puzzle, it will destroy the game. But maybe the overall will work it.
Anyway the changes were meant to affect single match-ups, while trying to reduce the impact on the others. That means there are still some, and those will decide if the changes fail or work.
also all of the changes were wanted by a majority of people, so here you go this is a community sponsored patch imo. (and guess what still lots of complaining *g*)
editPS: i think this time there will be also be some changes not mentioned, so get your free cookie for finding them, before the main server does.
Oh and i see alot of those changes as crimes of the beta repatching (imo they patched there a bit to strongly on behalf of the community as soon as something was found (not mean that they did something, but they went a bit for an overachiever))
|
On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote:
rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point?
For the statistics I suggest looking here:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090
People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
|
On August 26 2011 21:53 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote:
rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point? For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that. Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly. Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed.
T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf.
Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z).
|
On August 26 2011 20:27 Thraundil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 20:20 Tschis wrote:
I don't understand why the OP thinks the vision range up ramps will change scouting in a bad way. For all I know (from what I understood), the units down the ramp will have an extra range free of vision from the units up the ramp, so that's better for scouting?
The other way around: units poking up ramps will see 1 range less than they do currently. So spotting e.g. a terran expansion building with a probe or drone/ling will be more difficult.
Maybe I got it wrong, but I thought it meant units on a higher level have -1 range vision on the lower level. Which doesn't affect your scout unit because you're on the lower level, and if you go up the ramp, then you're in the same level and will have the same range as today.
|
I think they forgot to either make the HSM cost less mana or be non-researchable again (comes without having to upgrade it) if they want people to start using it.
|
On August 26 2011 21:53 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote:
rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point? For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that. Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly. Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
Yikes, your kinda being a dick for no reason. You have valid points though. I lold at your A-move, but dont forget emps. Thats like saying P can a move, but dont forget FF or storm.
If T goes bio they have to stim, emp, kite and focus fire vikings. Definitively not A-move. P also has to blink, storm and FF so im not getting the the middle of a who micros more debate. Just pointing out that rarely do they A-move.
That aside chargelot Archon is the most awesome a-move army in the game and Z often amoves which i think is probably what he was talking about. And no archons are massive its even better. Not a whine at all, just a statement.
Also you say you have no knowledge of TvZ. My Terran is diamond level, TvP i beat a lot of masters, but TvZ i only go 50-50 with diamond. I started to get pissed when i lost more and more TvZ so i played about 10 games as zerg to prove a point.
I Roflstomped most plat T, and a few diamond T. And i have no mechanics, i manually go to each hatch and inject (Still fairly simple to do though), I purely A-move. My upgrades were always good as i couldnt spend my money anywhere else. I then played a masters and got owned so hard it make me cry. I got dropped all over the place.
From what i found, T is really fucking hard to play against a competent Z until your good, well masterish good. As you have to multitask, a lot. 1 bad unsiege and you get fucked. These sort of things are mistakes which high level players dont seem to really make. Sure theres the odd mistake but no mass unsiege by accident etc. Trust me, that happens even in diamond.
When people say T is the hardest to play, in diamond i would definitely agree as it seems to require so much more apm its mindboggling. You can chill on like 50 apm as zerg and do fine in diamond. Just not possible with T. However once your comfortable with your 130+ apm it probably just seems normal.
|
This patch just reflect the pgm's statistics. Good job Blizzard.
|
On August 26 2011 21:29 sleepingdog wrote:
Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
Terran's not harder? Wow. I always found them to be appallingly tough.
On topic: Finally an Immortal buff... glad that they upped the range instead of doing stupid things like giving them 200 shield and +20 damage.
|
On August 26 2011 22:16 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 21:53 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote:
rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point? For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that. Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly. Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them. Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed. T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf. Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z).
rofl you sure know how to answer a persons actual point. unofficial stats relating to the very highest level of play. fantastic and wholly unrepresentative. also, i never said protoss and zerg are a move races but i don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that terran is the race which scales best with very high levels of micro and multitasking ability, which yes is needed pretty in pretty much any bio related compisitions. i can think of A LOT of zerg and protoss units which perform optimally without micro. from a terran arsenal there is? thors? well not against protoss anyway.
|
On August 26 2011 20:50 CarlaBruni wrote:
same with z and p but they cannot dominate because of obvious imbalance since september 2010
just saying lol
btw was there such a gap between one race and the others in any rts before i dont remember in bw having such domination
Well, for starters SC2 has no expansion, yet. Vanilla Starcraft was not balanced at all, Protoss was unplayable bad and Zerg had a significant advantage over Terran as well. This was when photon cannons only did 10 damage to mutalisks and archons moved at like 1.5 speed.
|
Protoss was also extremely weak in BW until the Bisu Build evolved in 2007 -- 9 years after the release of BroodWar and 6 years after the final Broodwar balance patch.
This is why it's generally considered futile to whine about game balance. The pros who will ultimately enjoy competing in a balanced SC2 are probably preteens at this point.
On the bright side it's likely that terran will enjoy several more years of dominance while blizzard's historically-glacial balancing process continues -- that's plenty of time to switch to and master terran if you're so concerned about not playing at an artificial disadvantage.
|
On August 27 2011 01:17 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 22:16 Shadrak wrote:On August 26 2011 21:53 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote:
rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point? For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that. Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly. Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them. Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed. T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf. Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z). rofl you sure know how to answer a persons actual point. unofficial stats relating to the very highest level of play. fantastic and wholly unrepresentative. also, i never said protoss and zerg are a move races but i don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that terran is the race which scales best with very high levels of micro and multitasking ability, which yes is needed pretty in pretty much any bio related compisitions. i can think of A LOT of zerg and protoss units which perform optimally without micro. from a terran arsenal there is? thors? well not against protoss anyway.
Who are you talking to? Yourself?
|
On August 27 2011 04:48 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:17 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 22:16 Shadrak wrote:On August 26 2011 21:53 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote:
rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point? For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that. Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly. Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them. Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed. T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf. Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z). rofl you sure know how to answer a persons actual point. unofficial stats relating to the very highest level of play. fantastic and wholly unrepresentative. also, i never said protoss and zerg are a move races but i don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that terran is the race which scales best with very high levels of micro and multitasking ability, which yes is needed pretty in pretty much any bio related compisitions. i can think of A LOT of zerg and protoss units which perform optimally without micro. from a terran arsenal there is? thors? well not against protoss anyway. Who are you talking to? Yourself?
He has a valid point that sure you may dispute. Posting useless posts like yours isnt helping anything though. Try and refrain in future not just for us, but youll get warnings, so for u too.
BC up to a point perfrom kinda well without micro in an actual fight. Not great though. I see your point of chareglots, Archons, colossi, speeldings, roaches the list goes on. And before anyone whines about colossi micro, its the same as thor 'micro'
Basically T NEEDS high apm while it only helps the others i think is his point. Chilling with low APM as terran just doesnt cut it even when everything you do is awesome, just ask sjow.
|
On August 27 2011 04:48 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:17 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 22:16 Shadrak wrote:On August 26 2011 21:53 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote:
rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point? For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that. Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly. Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them. Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed. T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf. Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z). rofl you sure know how to answer a persons actual point. unofficial stats relating to the very highest level of play. fantastic and wholly unrepresentative. also, i never said protoss and zerg are a move races but i don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that terran is the race which scales best with very high levels of micro and multitasking ability, which yes is needed pretty in pretty much any bio related compisitions. i can think of A LOT of zerg and protoss units which perform optimally without micro. from a terran arsenal there is? thors? well not against protoss anyway. Who are you talking to? Yourself?
the concept of quoting a post which you are responding to really isn't a difficult one. perhaps learn to engage your brain?
|
Yay for BFH nerf!! I think overall this seems like a pretty good patch. Although I will miss my OP fungals... Way she goes...
|
On August 27 2011 00:00 Squigly wrote:
From what i found, T is really fucking hard to play against a competent Z until your good, well masterish good. As you have to multitask, a lot. 1 bad unsiege and you get fucked. These sort of things are mistakes which high level players dont seem to really make. Sure theres the odd mistake but no mass unsiege by accident etc. Trust me, that happens even in diamond.
When people say T is the hardest to play, in diamond i would definitely agree as it seems to require so much more apm its mindboggling. You can chill on like 50 apm as zerg and do fine in diamond. Just not possible with T. However once your comfortable with your 130+ apm it probably just seems normal.
Well and now I would argue, that you did well as Zerg, because Zerg is the race that requires the highest overall knowledge of the game.
there is no safe build, so you have to know whats coming, without seeing it. Ofc a high level player will do well with Zerg on low skill level, because he will have that ability.
Also I want to argue, that I, as a Zerg player, have beaten a lot of Masters Zs with T too, because you can simply do anything, and as long as the zerg doesn't get what you do, he loses, and talking about hard micro... The onyl hard terran micro I know about is using snipe effecticly and maybe real good hellion kiting. Stimmed marines are just a clicking excercise to kite and spread in my eyes and real good terrans like MVP are way above this kind of gameplay. They win because they have this zerglike spidersenses, instead of doing the average masterleague pushes, that are just excercises until you find zergs that have brutal good gamesense.
|
I don't know how i feel about zerg getting a build time decrease on the ultralisk. Personally I think zerg endgame is already too good and now making P and T have to deal with two types of T3 tech could be very hard
|
On August 26 2011 21:29 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 21:19 rmAmnesiac wrote:
so i'm supposed to reply politely with arguments vs someone who thinks he can just say terran have dominated since september simply because he's doesn't like losing to them? the fact that terran have dominated for a year has very little to do if I do or do not like losing to them Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 20:40 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them? Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc. thanks for proving my point. not everyone who plays this game have the time to practise 5 plus hours a day and on a semi-pro/pro level of play. i reached masters as a random palyer and chose the race i enjoyed most. why should i have to outplay opponents to stay level with my opponents at this level simply because i don't play this game on gm, or pro level? how is that balanced? Your claim that you have to outplay your opponents just to stay level is a completely biased QQ that has been proven wrong multiple times Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily. Using HTs is much harder than using ghosts. Using marauders that have slow is also really not that challenging, etc. And using drops is much easier than defending against them. This is just the same as toss a-move with forcefields and storm... Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
I'm not sure what game you have been playing, but when it reaches lategame you can never "just stim and roflstomp." If you do that you autolose to collosus+archon deathball with templars.
Also, using HTs is not "much harder than using ghosts." It's pretty much equal, the difference being if T does not hit the EMPs perfectly they have zero chance, whereas if protoss hits even 2 storms they are fine, but a lot of times late game it won't matter because protoss can composition fuck Terran so hard that P ends up with mass collosus+archon+zealot/stalkers which emp doesn't do jack shiot against.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
