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I lost 13 games literally in a row last night, which led me to dive into analyzing my replays in SC2Gears.
I discovered that I'm teching up way later than my opponents... consistently. This is what the Unit Tiers page looks like for almost all of my games:
![[image loading]](http://oi53.tinypic.com/2j1otag.jpg)
Being behind my opponent in Unit Tiers isn't the whole story, but I'm sure it's not doing me any favors.
I did some calculations, and getting a Lair costs about the same as 2 Roaches or 3 Banelings... when you think about it that way, it seems like a small price to pay for tech'ing up.
I know that ZvZ is more about being reactionary, but just in general for all match-ups:
1 - When do you get your Lair? Right after you get ling speed / baneling nest, etc... and not scouting any immediate threats?
2 - How can I improve my tech'ing up?
Thanks for taking the time to ready this!
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When I get my lair depends on the match-up. In ZvP for example, I'll get it somewhere around 9-11 minutes (evo's deal with dt and stargate). ZvT I'll get my lair when I feel I'm safe from any timing attacks (usually around the 6-7 mark). ZvZ I usually delay my lair for a faster +1 range if my opponent is going lots of lings. If the map is good for mutas (small chokes so I can plant lots of spines) I will go early lair and get some mutas. If not I usually get my lair once I'm fairly saturated.
Honestly I feel like many zergs make the mistake of teching up too much. In ZvP for example people used to always rush roach upgrades including +1/+1 and roach speed/burrow/ov speed. But you can defend pushes just as easily with just 1 evo (for spores) and mass ling/roach. Terran and zerg you might want to tech up faster but never feel like you HAVE to tech to something. And don't just get lair because it's "around that time to get it", have a plan and know WHY your getting it. Many times you may not need it.
Just my 2 cents... mid-high masters zerg
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i normally grab my lair around 7-9 min ish
because you do much shit with slow roaches, slow blings and slings for a while because if you stay on hatch tech during a 6 gate timing push (11 min) youre just gonnna get analled
EDIT: i also grab it when my +1 is half way through and drop my bling nest around 20seconds in while my lair is evolving so the nest and lair pop at the same time.
and to answer your second question is to just play more games
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zerg will generally tech slower than the other races, getting more low-tier stuff is more appealing to us
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On August 18 2011 10:25 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
zerg will generally tech slower than the other races, getting more low-tier stuff is more appealing to us
Does everyone agree with this?
Is the image I posted of my Unit Tiers similar to that of a skilled player who won all three of those games?
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To keep it simple, when it comes to tech: T>P>Z
Terran tech units can be exceptional in many situations even if they are alone. For example, early reaper, early thor, or early banshee. Zerg tech units are almost never exceptional alone. You need to have a strong economy to justify teching. One important thing as well, Zerg takes the longest to tech up.
Teching also greatly depends on the match-up and your specific game. In general, you can be safe massing tier 1.5 units on 2 base. This will allow you to either defend a big push, or put on pressure and expand at the same time. Get tier 2 units when you are on 3 base.
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On August 18 2011 10:29 DynamiteLaserbeam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 10:25 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
zerg will generally tech slower than the other races, getting more low-tier stuff is more appealing to us Does everyone agree with this? Is the image I posted of my Unit Tiers similar to that of a skilled player who won all three of those games?
Yes this is correct, for ex in ZvT you can go pretty late into the game with only ling bane mutas
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It's a design of the Zerg race to tech slower. The reason is once we have a tech, we can instantly pump as many of that tech's units as resources allow (assuming you are good on larvae injects). The other races usually have 1-2 production facilities that can only slowly accumulate high tech units. This is why they get their tech earlier. If you try to tech fast as Zerg, especially off one base (which is near impossible), you will be sorely, sorely punished.
Our tech units are also extremely gas intensive, which is why it makes no sense to tech earlier, as you cannot build high tech units without at least 2 bases (a solid macro foundation).
This is also why cheese / timing attacks work so often vs. Zerg. We simply don't have any AA or detection capability until later in the game (spore crawlers require foresight of the enemy's build, and we all know how Zerg scouting is...).
As a final suggestion, your tech pacing, like your expansion pacing, should be based on scouting. It's something that, as you play more, you'll realize how much flexibility you have to drone hard / tech, and when you have to make precautionary static defenses or units. I think timing is more important for Zerg players than any other race - it takes a lot of finesse to get good due to unconventional mechanics.
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This may or may not be the cause, as zerg's lower tier units in mass is very effective even against high tier units from other races.
For example, mass roach can give protoss a VERY hard time (albeit it can still be defended) even when protoss has a few colossi out. (T1.5 v T3)
Another example is the early tank marine push, which can usually be defended with decent amounts of s/blings. (T1.5 v T2)
Banshee harass? Make queens. (T1vT3)
Sometimes it's not about how fast you tech, but rather on positioning and macro decisions (ie drones vs army).
Also: I think it might help if we saw the reps of those 3 games?
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Think about it this way, you're going to be using mostly T1 units for the entire game but will be relying on T2 upgrades to beef them or often times just win on T2. For instance, Roach Bane as T1 aren't very good but at T2 with speed upgrades and burrow they become quite a fearsome unit combination.
The most used T2 units you will use are Mutas and Infestors, that's only 2 units. And T3 is ONLY 2 units, broodlords and ultras and generally you will only get one or the other.
Zerg doesn't rely on tech as much as they rely on T1 units with upgrades.
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First I thought you're talking strictly about ZvZ because otherwise comparing unit tiers wouldn't make any sense. Then I look at your graph and realize ZvZ wouldn't make sense off that graph either. Then I read the comments and realize you actually are, in fact, talking about other matchups, and it does not make any sense to me.
You can't compare unit tiers from one race to another. This is even more true in case of zerg vs other races. First of, unit tiers doesn't even make much sense in sc2. In wc3 sure cz every race you unlock new tiers by upgrading your main building. What is factory unit supposed to be? T2? Because you require to build additional building besides Barracks? By that logic then Roaches should also be T2 units. And then Lair would be T3 which would make hydras what? T4?
Hive tech for zerg is also very situational. Keep in mind that once you go hive the only things you unlock are Ultralisk, Broodlords, and cracklings (adrenal gland) upgrade. In most cases you will not need hive tech until the very late game and even so some cases you will not need them at all. If your opponent is going pure air then what's the point of getting "T3"?
I think rather on focusing on "teching up" you should focus more on "responding" to your opponent's move. What is he doing? Is he going DT? Do you have enough detection? If you don't have lair yet then you can respond by just getting some spore crawlers and then you can get lair later for overseer to spot dt on the map. Is he going banshees? Are there going to be more? If it's only a few banshees then queen will deal with that fine, but just in case I'm going to put down some overseers.
By focusing on responding to your opponent correctly you will more quickly figure out the correct timing to go lair/hive tech. There are times when you need to get faster lair or hive but you should never try to plan that blind but rather scout and respond correctly. Zerg is mostly a reactionary race and the best way to play it is to respond correctly to what T and P are doing.
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Gas timings......do you do delayed gas due to the recent macro heavy styles or ?
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On August 18 2011 10:33 cywinr wrote:
To keep it simple, when it comes to tech: T>P>Z
Terran tech units can be exceptional in many situations even if they are alone. For example, early reaper, early thor, or early banshee. Zerg tech units are almost never exceptional alone. You need to have a strong economy to justify teching. One important thing as well, Zerg takes the longest to tech up.
Teching also greatly depends on the match-up and your specific game. In general, you can be safe massing tier 1.5 units on 2 base. This will allow you to either defend a big push, or put on pressure and expand at the same time. Get tier 2 units when you are on 3 base.
When Terran techs it almost always means building a production building. This makes it easier for them to tech up without getting rolled.
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You can look at upgrades as well for tiers because I have noticed that alot of these late late gas builds that zergs do really delay their upgrades in favour of just having a huge army.
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If you have slower tech, it probably means you're substituting it for something. Instead of say teching to mutalisks to harass, you're just gonna take a fast third and go for an eco play.
It's like a Terran doing a 1/1/1 build compared to expanding, or a protoss doing a 2 colossus push as apposed to 6gate push.
So to answer question 2... If you want to tech faster then you have to change your play style. You could try teching up on 2 bases, or teching as you take your first expo. I wouldn't look too far into trying to get tech faster unless you find that you should be getting it faster. (playing responsively)
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You don't tech fast as zerg because teching fast implies that you will be taking your gases, and as zerg you want to pump drones safely for as long as possible, which means minerals are more important. You have to take your gases to make teching worth it because all your tier 2 units (hydras/mutas/infestors) are all fairly gas heavy.
Thats pretty much all there is to it.
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the best way to learn how to tech properly is to watch a Grandmaster and try to gain as much insight about how he scouts and reacts accordingly. Teching in ZvP and ZvT is completely reactionary!! watch how pros react to what they see.
ZvZ is also reactionary, but to a lesser extent. its more about trying to get a economic advantage and survive :-P
if you have any specific Reactionary tech questions, let me know!
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keep in mind that as zerg you usually stay on the lower tiers then your opponent. This is because we tend to mass up lower tier units such as zerglings and roaches. therefore you will tech up later.
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I think teching all depends on what your opponent is doing. Tech only when safe, usually when opponent is getting an expo
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EPT
