EPT[G] aXa's ZvZ, Ladder Season 3 - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
aXa
France748 Posts
| ||
|
iNViCiOUZ
Germany364 Posts
Since a view days i try 10pool here and there and its very good at the shipyard map (a lot of hatch first) gives me a solid lead against hatch first (cancel + some drones) when they don't quit outright. But I always have problems with a good followup witout building some extra linqs. Definetly will try your queen and roach followup. Is there a hugh difference between 9 pool and 10pool? When do you research linqspeed? Why not using the 9pool on the "hatch first" maps to punish a hatch first from the opponent? | ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
I never see pros use it, but I agree with the logic that even a perfectly executed 14gaspool standard will still leave you more or less even. I just don't understand why. I've been looking at it with a few friends, and it works but it doesn't make sense to me. I really like the ability to take initiative that early in a mirror matchup, but it bothers me that I don't ever see good players using it. Why do you think this is? The only time I've ever seen any 9pool double queen build used at the pro level is when nexlife used it to stop a guy he knew was going for fast pool banes. | ||
|
SC2Epic
United States25 Posts
| ||
|
aXa
France748 Posts
| ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 15 2011 19:09 aXa wrote: Pro player don't use it because it's not a viable option in tourney (You can do it once, but next time your opponent will be prepared) It's a ladder build, where your opponent is different each time and don't know you. Henceforth it is useless for them to practice it on ladder: They must practice their main build. We don't see spanishiwa style either in tourney, don't we? i think the difference here though is that the spanishiwa opener just isn't viable at all after a certain level, and at least what you're claiming is that this is a tourney-worthy build (at least once in a while). The same can't be said about spanishiwa's build (insofar as you're drawing this comparison). I feel like perhaps 9pool can potentially have legitimate standing value at higher level play, at least for variety's sake. It just fails the intuition test (at least for me). It seems like most players into mid and even some high master lack the faculties to really know when they can get away with drones here and there, and this build is fantastic at forcing the other player into making those decisions he's uncomfortable making, and that's where its strength lies. For me as a mid-master zerg, I know that I would probably struggle consistently getting the upper hand against a good 9pool player. | ||
|
Catgroove
Sweden67 Posts
| ||
|
aXa
France748 Posts
| ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 16 2011 03:46 aXa wrote: Do i have to contact an admin for the [G] or will they do it in their own time? If you rename it, could you add something about 9 pool in the title? This (and your last thread) are the only ones coherently discussing the topic. axa, I just tried this 9pool opener, pretty sloppy play all-around, but the early game felt pretty good. I'm not sure exactly where I went wrong (something to do with the roach production early), but it feels difficult to secure the expo against possible aggression. I clearly had an advantage early that I lost, and I'd like your thoughts on what I could/should have done. Replay | ||
|
aXa
France748 Posts
Read my guide carefully and try it again. | ||
|
pStar
996 Posts
And for me as a silver the whole writeup was brilliant, really helped me with ZvZ and I have won 5/5 games since doing this tl;dr thanks | ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 16 2011 16:35 aXa wrote: Sorry michael but i can't tell you what you did wrong because you didn't follow at all my instructions. Read my guide carefully and try it again. I guess what I'm asking is can you elaborate a bit more on securing your natural expansion. In the game I played on XNC, of course the natural is pretty open. I droned after my 6 lings and had the general mindset of your build (although the nuances were off, like extractor trick for the extra drone, and gas was late, made too many roach). The reason I made so many roaches though is I didn't feel comfortable at all moving out to get my natural. In that position on XNC, do you change anything with this build? Do you just take it anyway even if you think your opponent might be massing for an all-in? How can I belay these concerns and safely expand against a mass of speedlings when I only have 4-7 roaches and 2 queens which are too far removed from my natural to provide defense to the lings trying to force cancel. If I move out with my roaches to defend against the cancel, they can easily be surrounded (at least this is my feeling). Just in general, it'd be great if you could explain a bit more of your thought processes behind securing the expansion with your build/strategy. After playing it a few times I do like it, but this is becoming an issue at least for me. | ||
|
bmn
886 Posts
On August 16 2011 20:21 michaelhasanalias wrote: I guess what I'm asking is can you elaborate a bit more on securing your natural expansion. In the game I played on XNC, of course the natural is pretty open. I droned after my 6 lings and had the general mindset of your build (although the nuances were off, like extractor trick for the extra drone, and gas was late, made too many roach). The reason I made so many roaches though is I didn't feel comfortable at all moving out to get my natural. In that position on XNC, do you change anything with this build? Do you just take it anyway even if you think your opponent might be massing for an all-in? How can I belay these concerns and safely expand against a mass of speedlings when I only have 4-7 roaches and 2 queens which are too far removed from my natural to provide defense to the lings trying to force cancel. If I move out with my roaches to defend against the cancel, they can easily be surrounded (at least this is my feeling). Just in general, it'd be great if you could explain a bit more of your thought processes behind securing the expansion with your build/strategy. After playing it a few times I do like it, but this is becoming an issue at least for me. I remember quite vividly that you were very vocal about how any decent zerg will completely own the 9pool by pulling drones with a speedling attack, using drones to attack the queens. What happened to that objection? I always thought it was rather far-fetched, and I have never seen anybody on the ladder do it, but you were quite adamant about this alone making the 9pool build useless. | ||
|
bmn
886 Posts
On August 15 2011 20:04 michaelhasanalias wrote: It seems like most players into mid and even some high master lack the faculties to really know when they can get away with drones here and there, and this build is fantastic at forcing the other player into making those decisions he's uncomfortable making, and that's where its strength lies. For me as a mid-master zerg, I know that I would probably struggle consistently getting the upper hand against a good 9pool player. If you've done the build yourself a few times, you shouldn't struggle against someone else who is doing it. I only saw one other person using it against me; I just happened to go speedling expand that game instead of 9pooling myself, and this build is not scary at all if you know it's coming and you've played it yourself. It's not trivial to hold, but since you already know when the roach push will come, you can safely drone very hard for very long. The 9pool build doesn't even get ling speed until way late, so there's absolutely no threat of sudden aggression. You do need to get enough standing army in time to hold the roach push, but if you've played the build, you should be able to understand the timings well enough. You beat it by droning hard early, and only starting your army (and upgrades, etc.) later. You should have a faster expansion up, map control with speedlings, and there isn't much the other Zerg can hide that would kill you, although the three queens do make overlord base scouting a bad idea in general. Doing the build myself, the only thing I've consistently lost to was people who knew when to drone, expanded quickly, and either went for mass upgraded roaches themselves or people who rushed infestors -- they seem to pop just in time to stop the roach push. (I started trying variations of this build against people rushing infestors, but not often enough to say whether my ideas are any good.) | ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 16 2011 20:55 bmn wrote: I remember quite vividly that you were very vocal about how any decent zerg will completely own the 9pool by pulling drones with a speedling attack, using drones to attack the queens. What happened to that objection? I always thought it was rather far-fetched, and I have never seen anybody on the ladder do it, but you were quite adamant about this alone making the 9pool build useless. yeah, if you want to all-in, you can definitely do that and kill someone who tries to live with 2 queens and nothing behind it, but that goes from massing lings and being behind to super-duper unrecoverable all-in if you have a control failure. That said, the reason I really am starting to like the idea of 9pool now (and axa has a convincing argument) is that whatever you sacrifice for the 9pool, even if you don't do any real damage is that you seize the initiative and don't ever let go of it unless YOU fail (for example, in my replay where I seize the initiative, am clearly ahead for a few minutes, and then piss it away with some poor decisions about roach production vs expansion security). I will say that although it still feels like 9pool should be economically behind any well executed standard opener, it never seems to be in any game I see (and if it is, it's almost always the 9pooler's bad play, rather than the build itself). I won't say I understand why this is so, because I don't, but I'm content enough to accept it for now and start seriously messing with the build as a viable opener. aXa, at least in my opinion, has done a very good job explaining why this can be a good build (in his last thread I didn't think so as much, but this one is better I think). | ||
|
aXa
France748 Posts
| ||
|
firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
| ||
|
oSaRon
United States2 Posts
| ||
|
Benjerry
Sweden9 Posts
AxA: What are your thoughts on current ZvT, specifically holding the mid-game siege-marine push as a mid-skill (High diamond) Zerg, with non-gosu micro? | ||
|
shoooryuken
France14 Posts
For ZvZ, i prefer use a 11 overpool, but, i'll going to test your 9 pool, i promise. 3 questions: - can you update your 9pool on ZvP (with recent replays?) - why do you ban Abyssal Cavern? i'll found this map is very interesting for ZvT and ZvP. - when your opponent gone on 11 overpool fast speedlings => banelings like ImBaLowely or a timing attac like fast 26 speedlings, how do you react? I cant watch your recent replay on my office, i'm watching this weekend  oh, and i'm french, if you can/want playing a game or 2? (i'm only in diamond, but i'm very friendly :D | ||
| ||
