Hey all i've focused all my efforts on TvT and TvP i feel good in these matchups now but TvZ i've hit a wall.
I'm a Plat Terran on EU beating diamonds now.
Vs zerg who goes 2 hatch infestor builds i am not quite sure what i should be doing i scout it but i dont know how to react properly. Should i try and take a faster 3rd and go for drops? Or just start going ghost and try and hit a timming. But i've faced a few zerg who go ultra with his infestors into broodlords really threw me off in a game but.
My main question is how do i pressure the zerg without risking to loose my entire army because usually i just go for marine tank medevac. And fungals can destroy me, should i just try the same thing but with good emps, or should i snipe and use a viking for spotting.
Usually vs ling bane muta style i just keep macroing taking bases behind marine tank medic pushes and my macro just takes over.
Usually 2-base infestor implies no mutas, so you can make more marauders, which can absorb the fungals much better. Another option is to make banshees, since they can fly in front of the army and either force mutas or hydras.
When I go mass infestor I fear lots of siege tanks. They outrange NP and fungal. If you combine this with either Turrets or ravens it can be very effective. Against mass Infestor they can't pressure you too easily, as they will lose in a strait up fight. Also hellions are surprisingly good against them as they are so fast, and take 3 fungal growths to kill.
Abuse drops. Zerg is relatively immobile when he has infestors running around, compared to Muta Ling Baneling. Scan to identify the infestation pit and prepare accordingly. Zerg will be reluctant to use his first few fungals on small marine forces, especially if you pressure his front while you drop. Essentially you need to kill alot of drones / tech with your drops while playing expanding behind it. He's in no position to take on PF's on third / fourth bases with only lings and infestors. Here's a vod of Hashe vs Destiny, who demonstrates very well on how to play against his style.
Economic play is necessary against this strategy because you will eventually need tanks + ghosts to deal with silly amounts of infestors, and a two base economy can't support that kind of tech.
I also had these problems. I'm a High Diamond NA Terran (would be Masters I think if I laddered more often). I usually go mech, and I've also had a lot of problems with infestors. The best way I have found is just throw a couple of Ghosts into an army to EMP their Infestors. One thing I've noticed about Zergs who build lots of infestors is that they NEVER spread their infestors (sort of like how P's used to be with their High Templar) and so you only need a couple of Ghosts to deal with a lot of Infestors.
My Ideas (high diamond zerg): -use cloaked ghosts for snipe/EMp -send a marauder and marine or a couple of marines to snipe the infestors -I don't recommend banshee or tons of tanks like people above have done. Banshees easy to take down and tanks easy to infestor bomb from underground. -Drops are key. Key. Just pick up and leave if he doesn't have an infestor there. Spread your marines when you drop them to prevent the fungal from doing a ton of damage.
Interesting responses, I played a game there where i saw the infestation pit around 8 min and took a faster 3rd on shattered temple. and went lots more siege tanks and did a slow push.
Not sure if you saw the Game in the GSL code A where Thorizain did the most amazing slow push on Terminus RE. It worked very nicely i got rid of alot of marines and replaced then with helions because i was afraid of speedling run bys. I am still not 100% sure if this was the right thing to do but i like to play as passivly and as macro orientated as i can i think i got kind of lucky with the timming i moved out with though because he was trying to take his 4th and couldnt but if he got that and i was starting my push he probably could have won the game. But it seems going more mech heavy works well for me, but i worry about mass muta switches. could be very scary but most zerg seem to want to rush to brood lord infestor of 3 base trying to get a 4th.
On August 12 2011 10:36 MarkBolinder3 wrote: Ghosts can usually get like 6 infestors on one emp throw. Little op IMO but I am a Zerg player
Snipe is better than emp most times imo. Snipe does 45 damage ignoring armor and infestors have 90hp. 4 cloaked ghosts is all in takes to kill all infestors a lot of times. A ghost can snipe 8 times with full energy.
On August 12 2011 10:36 MarkBolinder3 wrote: Ghosts can usually get like 6 infestors on one emp throw. Little op IMO but I am a Zerg player
You could always split up your Infestors. I remember when P's started doing that with their High Templar, suddenly they became way more powerful because one EMP didn't knock out the energy of all their High Templar. It really isn't too difficult, it just requires a little bit of planning (and it's especially easy if the engagement is a more defensive engage for the Zerg as then splitting Infestors should just be something that you've already done.
Dude ... Ghosts Few Emps and all Infestor become useless Since ghosts are invisible and infestors usually clump up its pretty easy So Marine tank medic ghost works pretty good especially cause ghosts are also darn good against mutas if zerg decides to tech switch
On August 12 2011 10:36 MarkBolinder3 wrote: Ghosts can usually get like 6 infestors on one emp throw. Little op IMO but I am a Zerg player
Snipe is better than emp most times imo. Snipe does 45 damage ignoring armor and infestors have 90hp. 4 cloaked ghosts is all in takes to kill all infestors a lot of times. A ghost can snipe 8 times with full energy.
It takes 3 snipes to kill an infestor cuz they regen one HP as soon as the first snipe hits them.
Generally EMP is better for a clump, but yeah to pick off one or two infestors snipe is great.
On August 12 2011 10:36 MarkBolinder3 wrote: Ghosts can usually get like 6 infestors on one emp throw. Little op IMO but I am a Zerg player
Snipe is better than emp most times imo. Snipe does 45 damage ignoring armor and infestors have 90hp. 4 cloaked ghosts is all in takes to kill all infestors a lot of times. A ghost can snipe 8 times with full energy.
It takes 3 snipes to kill an infestor cuz they regen one HP as soon as the first snipe hits them.
Generally EMP is better for a clump, but yeah to pick off one or two infestors snipe is great.
Agree with this 100%. Especially since a fast player will immediately uncloak your Ghosts with Fungal the moment you start Sniping a clump of Infestors one at a time.
My best results vs Ling-Infestor is by having a large Ghost count (6+) with Cloak. They also kill everything in the air with Snipe, so you won't get blind-sided by a Broodlord transition.
Mass Infestor Zerg needs a lot of gas (if you're aggressive enough to pick off Infestors so he has to build more), so you have to control his number of bases. Ling/Infestor relies on a faster Hive for upgrade #3 and BL/Ultra to last late into the game, so it's almost more gas intensive than Ling/Bling/Muta.
On August 12 2011 10:36 MarkBolinder3 wrote: Ghosts can usually get like 6 infestors on one emp throw. Little op IMO but I am a Zerg player
Snipe is better than emp most times imo. Snipe does 45 damage ignoring armor and infestors have 90hp. 4 cloaked ghosts is all in takes to kill all infestors a lot of times. A ghost can snipe 8 times with full energy.
It takes 3 snipes to kill an infestor cuz they regen one HP as soon as the first snipe hits them.
Generally EMP is better for a clump, but yeah to pick off one or two infestors snipe is great.
Wouldn't Snipe + Snipe + queue normal attack work? I think that whole queue would take about 2s to go through fully.
I think in this case you should respond by getting turtley, get a 3rd up, and max on an ideal unit composition. Your main for of harass imo should be blue flame drops/runbys, because they are cheap and have more game-change potential than the standard marine drops. 1 big shot kills 25 drones and you're sitting with a VBG on your face.
I say play defensively because infestors don't have great offensive potential until BLs and ultras. So if u have time and stay even on bases and macro = or better to the Z, you win because your army is more cost effective (assuming equally skilled unit control). So if you can get to the dream composition of marine tank thor with BFhellion sprinkled in and then 10ish ghosts, with about 20 supply left for dealing with their chosen hive tech, you win easily. Watch ThorZain vs CatZ on shakuras. ThorZain plays like a baller.
I usually go drops with the addition of cloaked ghosts to sneak into bases and emp infestors, while my main army waits outside tehir base. Basically marine medivac tank with ghosts. Make sure to slow push on creep, and not let your tanks seem vulnerable :D
Going Ultra/Infestor gets demolished by large tank numbers. Keep your marines safe and as the Ultras claw away at the tanks focus down Infestors and finish the Ultras with your marines.
Against Brood Lords, keep making Marine/Tank but secure a good position and spread out your tanks. Then get fleets of Vikings, stay in range of the tanks in order to not get fungalled, and simply do whatever you can with them to kill the Brood Lords. Deny economy with drops around the map until the Zerg simply doesn't have the minerals and gas to keep producing expensive units like the Infestors and Brood Lords.
The best way to beat infestors is to have good micro and go mass marines. Do a 2rax opening, don't bunker rush and don't apply pressure with 5 marines, just save up some marines until like 10, then push up his ramp and try and snipe whatever defense he has. If he has lings back off (no way they are speed if he hatched first especially going infestors).
Once you've caused some damage you should have your expo up. Double engineer bay immediately and start +1/+1 and get a factory. (Before or after is up to you) you want to get medivacs asap. Throw down as many rax as you can afford (5-6) get 2 techlabs and leave the rest bald. Once medivacs are out load up a drop ship and make a reactor on a rax and your starport. Start your 3rd as well (this requires economical management on your part). Even though he'll have infestors by time you get there, you'll either do 1 of 3 things, you can retreat doing no damage and showing oyu have medivacs. You can attack and lose everything, or you can spread drop. Basically you run over the base dropping the marines instead of dropping them in the corner of the main. Once you lose that drop you should have your 3rd up and +2 +2 started. You'll want to get another starport and spend a lot of minerals on rax. get 3 medivacs full of marines and spread drop his main with 2 and spread drop his natural. Don't expand right away but keep up drop harass and attacking his front with always having your marines spread. Once you see him tech to Hive, get about 12 vikings. He has 3 options, mass infestors, broodlords, or ultralisk. If he gets ultralisk your marines will be enough, if he gets infestors you just continue with what you are doing and if he goes broodlords you've hard-countered him.
THis all requires a lot of APM and micro skills so if you want to know how to beat it thats how you beat it.
My favorite response to 2 hatch infestor is a fast double medivac drop, I tend to either open 12|14 rax or 2 reaper expand, both allow for transitions into mech, bio, or biomech. The ultimate response to 2 hatch infestor(ling) is probably a hellion opener into mech, or basically hellion thor, hit them before neural with a scary 1-1 timing with some scvs.
On August 16 2011 07:19 Kornholi0 wrote: The best way to beat infestors is to have good micro and go mass marines. Do a 2rax opening, don't bunker rush and don't apply pressure with 5 marines, just save up some marines until like 10, then push up his ramp and try and snipe whatever defense he has. If he has lings back off (no way they are speed if he hatched first especially going infestors).
How the hek are you supposed to know he is going infestor that early in the game unless you have ESP...?
the bestr thing to do vs a 2 base infestor user is to just expand and mass tanks. make sure to have turrets so you can see burrowed infestors, get on 4 base pretty quick and you can out macro/upgrade the zerg. so while your playing mostly passive and expanding, throw in some marine or bf hellion drops.
infestors while amazing, aren't very good for attacking Terran bases. especially into PFs.
Does mass tank really work? As a zerg player I think it's just hilarious to drop like 6 infested terrans on 6 different tanks, and watch them kill each other with great speed, then just move away. If they chase with rines you pop one up and fg, and go back and burrow and run. Not to mention you dont need all of them, tops just 3 of them to kill like 4 unwatched tanks o.o".
Ghosts to me seem like the more viable option, with both snipe and emp going on, its kinda a hard counter so to speak.
On August 21 2011 15:38 sas911 wrote: Does mass tank really work? As a zerg player I think it's just hilarious to drop like 6 infested terrans on 6 different tanks, and watch them kill each other with great speed, then just move away. If they chase with rines you pop one up and fg, and go back and burrow and run. Not to mention you dont need all of them, tops just 3 of them to kill like 4 unwatched tanks o.o".
Ghosts to me seem like the more viable option, with both snipe and emp going on, its kinda a hard counter so to speak.
As long as the Terran has detection, you cannot just waltz in and do that.
If he doesn't... Well he's bad. A single Raven doesn't really cost THAT much. Also, Turrets.
Why not go both Ghosts and Tanks? I mean yes, that requires a bit of a mech style, but at least it kills Infestor tech.
As has been said throughout this post, the best ways of dealing with infestors include: 1. Pressure through dropping whilst playing a heavy macro style as opposed to relying on strong timings. 2. Having a more mech-based army with larger marine balls discarded in favour of big, impenetrable tank lines. 3. Squadrons of ghosts for EMP and the occasional snipe.
You will also need detection active around your mech army to stop yourself from getting infested terran bombed.
On August 16 2011 07:19 Kornholi0 wrote: The best way to beat infestors is to have good micro and go mass marines. Do a 2rax opening, don't bunker rush and don't apply pressure with 5 marines, just save up some marines until like 10, then push up his ramp and try and snipe whatever defense he has. If he has lings back off (no way they are speed if he hatched first especially going infestors).
On August 12 2011 10:36 MarkBolinder3 wrote: Ghosts can usually get like 6 infestors on one emp throw. Little op IMO but I am a Zerg player
Snipe is better than emp most times imo. Snipe does 45 damage ignoring armor and infestors have 90hp. 4 cloaked ghosts is all in takes to kill all infestors a lot of times. A ghost can snipe 8 times with full energy.
Hey take a look at my guide I wrote up here, it was designed primarily to deal with infestors. Hellions for light units, siege tanks to take down most ground units, and ghosts to counter infestors.
Otherwise what you can try to do is constantly do multidrops to harass their expansion, most of the times, marine drops will already pay for themselves if they pick off a few drones, a tech structure or even a hatchery. Just remember to keep macroing while you harass
In superlategame, you can go for 2-4 banshees to quickly snipe neural infestors, you you can do it with your tanks. Moreover, an early raven helps not to get caught off guard with mass infested terrans. With a mech build (which I prefer against zerg) you can have a starport with a techlab in the midgame to build medivacs and vikings to drop or hunt overlords, in the lategame you need at least one more starport with a reactor to get emergency vikings if you see broodlords. So it's easy to get that raven to detect and the banshees to snipe the infestors.
Keep your units spread, marine tank still works against infesters during mid-game for a nice timing push, but you have to be very diligent about spreading your tanks and not balling your marines, to minimize the effect of FG. If you end up in a position 2base vs tier 3 zerg with infester + broodlord or ultra, you lost the game ages ago.
Hey, I am a EU plat zerg, I often play this style vs T and it seems that the only way for T to beat me is playing mech. That means mass helion and thor and a couple of tanks. You should also add some ghosts to your army, cloak them and EMP the infestors before engaging. These ghosts will also help you against the later broodlords or ultras. The mass helion with blue flame (you should really have a lot of them) will easly kill the zerglings, even under fungal growth, so take care of keeping the helions around your army, do not chase the zerglings. Banshees for sniping the infestors under cloack is not a good idea, they are to big and the zerg will see them, even cloacked. That is why you should rather use ghosts. However, you can still add some banshees to your army mix, just for sniping a neural parasiting infestor. Never go on creep. That is the worst thing that you can do, speedlings beeing so damn fast on it. Considering you would make some banshees, I would also produce a raven, just for killing creep tumors and detecting burrowed infestors. As a zerg, I have often lost to a T playing a heavy drop style. I now build 1-2 spinecrawlers in each of my bases and keep my army close to the bases. But if you go for the drop play, I would make a viking first, just for sniping overlords, and preventing mapcontrol. Playing this style, I am used to build 2 evo chambers and researching upgrades. Another idea would be to drop, stim, and snipe the evo chamber/pool, or just killing the queen. Playing mass sling infestor requires a lot af larva. Killing his queens will slow him down. Warning: I am only in platinium, and describing how I get beaten playing infestor ling. What I say might be wrong
For example, what do you want to do, first of all? Do you want to push? Do you want a longer game and play more passively? Then we can give you more specific details on how to do those, because there are many decisions you can make that are "correct".
For example, if you want to push, then just hit a timing before Infestors come out. If you're going Bio, then marine tank is fine, just make sure your marines are close to your tanks so he can't fungal you without losing Infestors. Or you can let the Infestors come out and attack later even, it just means you have to be more careful (marines next to tanks). If you want to hit before that's fine too, you can push faster and won't have to worry so much.
If you push with Mech, then rush thor hellion before infestors pop or get tanks if you want to push after infestors come. Similar to bio, keep your army close to your tanks so it is safe from fungal/neural.
Late game against Infestor/Broodlord, you will need a composition with MMM Ghost Viking or MMM Ghost if you're going Bio. If mech, then Thor Hellion Ghost Viking or Thor Hellion Ghost, with a few tanks if you want (not necessary, depends on style/map etc.).
Bro, I go mech and I LOVE IT when zerg goes for infestors. I love it because they can't touch me without suciding their army. Also, it's not too micro intesvie either you just have to slow push, keep units near the tanks and focus down infestors with tanks when the zerg does ingage.
I know it's not the best advice since you seem to perfer more bio play, but mech is a soild solution. For example, before that infestor patch TvZ was my best matchup with something like 70% win rate; after the patch I was like 10%. I tierd many differnt things to regan my old glory but once I could execute my current mech build....I'm back baby, better then every! Making bitches rage! I love TvZ especailly when I'm up against infestors.
Yeah, I still can't beat it. Even bcs get owned lol... Late game when the zerg has like 30 infestors, it doesn't matter if I emp or snipe them because as long as like 5 of them have energy, they just win. I will go play some mech I guess.
EPT
