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So I noticed that the natural expansion on antiga shipyard is rather large. I also noticed protoss players tend to favour forge fast expanding on this map pretty much all the time. However compared to similar maps such as shakuras plateau and taldarim altar the layout of the map is such that to wall off completely you need more buildings. Furthermore the location of their cannons is such that if you were to sneak lings in you could easily attack the nexus at the natural expansion whilst being out of cannon range unless on the afromentioned maps.
This gives zerg players a short window of opportunity to do ling run by's in the early game. If you manage to sneak 10+ lings past the cannons at the front it is pretty much auto-win.
Using a 10 pool i've found that should the protoss player opt for forge cannon then nexus you can sneak enough lings into their base in time for an auto win because the cannon they built does not protect their nexus if you run around to the other side.
Should the toss player scout the 10 pool early enough, the standard response by the toss player has been to wall off compeltely with 2 gates forge plus two pylons. As i said before due to the layout of the map if they want to wall off completely they need to use two pylons in their wall off....with a 10 pool you can destroy both pylons before the cannon is completed. However a good player will build gateway's/ more pylons behind it to completely wall off.
This can be advantageous because if u cut lings at 6 just to kill the two pylons and proceed to a macro game the toss player may be behind after losing 2 pylons, being forced to throw down extra gates/ delayed nexus.......a toss player who doesnt do this will be overrun with lings and you can auto win.
I have also tried variations by building a hatch to block where they would put their gates/cannons and letting me get my lings in.....this had varying success.
I have yet to test out a 7 pool on this map. 7 pools generally dont work as seen by Huk vs Moon finals in dreamhack....but that was because Huk was able to wall off with forge gate cyber(or maybe it was 2 gates i forget). However this map has a wider choke and there are more weak spots....furthermore the distance between bases is much smaller, so a 7 pool my be viable.
If any zerg players have tested the 7 pool or found a way to abuse the layout of the map please post away
In conclusion....if you 10 pool vs a forge fe on this map....if the toss player does not respond by cutting probes and building multiple buildings behind their pylons asap they auto lose. Furthermore should you cut at 6 lings and manage to down these pylons you can be at a advantage.
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On July 29 2011 04:35 slim_z wrote:
So I noticed that the natural expansion on antiga shipyard is rather large. I also noticed protoss players tend to favour forge fast expanding on this map pretty much all the time. However compared to similar maps such as shakuras plateau and taldarim altar the layout of the map is such that to wall off completely you need more buildings. Furthermore the location of their cannons is such that if you were to sneak lings in you could easily attack the nexus at the natural expansion whilst being out of cannon range unless on the afromentioned maps.
This gives zerg players a short window of opportunity to do ling run by's in the early game. If you manage to sneak 10+ lings past the cannons at the front it is pretty much auto-win.
Using a 10 pool i've found that should the protoss player opt for forge cannon then nexus you can sneak enough lings into their base in time for an auto win because the cannon they built does not protect their nexus if you run around to the other side.
Should the toss player scout the 10 pool early enough, the standard response by the toss player has been to wall off compeltely with 2 gates forge plus two pylons. As i said before due to the layout of the map if they want to wall off completely they need to use two pylons in their wall off....with a 10 pool you can destroy both pylons before the cannon is completed. However a good player will build gateway's/ more pylons behind it to completely wall off.
This can be advantageous because if u cut lings at 6 just to kill the two pylons and proceed to a macro game the toss player may be behind after losing 2 pylons, being forced to throw down extra gates/ delayed nexus.......a toss player who doesnt do this will be overrun with lings and you can auto win.
I have also tried variations by building a hatch to block where they would put their gates/cannons and letting me get my lings in.....this had varying success.
If any zerg players have tested the 7 pool or found a way to abuse the layout of the map please post away
In conclusion....if you 10 pool vs a forge fe on this map....if the toss player does not respond by cutting probes and building multiple buildings behind their pylons asap they auto lose. Furthermore should you cut at 6 lings and manage to down these pylons you can be at a advantage.
A good map for fast-pool (fast-pool meaning any pool that is made before 1st overlord) meets the following criteria:
-it's a 3 or 4-player map
-it's a small or medium-sized map; this is important because it lets you scout out an adjacent start location with your 1st overlord, and all you have to do is send out a drone to scout the other adjacent start location, and you will know where the opponent is when your lings are ready
-the map favors FFE builds
Antiga Shipyard meets all of these. Thus, Antiga Shipyard is an excellent map for any 6/7/8/9/10 pool build.
On July 29 2011 04:35 slim_z wrote:
I have yet to test out a 7 pool on this map. 7 pools generally dont work as seen by Huk vs Moon finals in dreamhack....but that was because Huk was able to wall off with forge gate cyber(or maybe it was 2 gates i forget). However this map has a wider choke and there are more weak spots....furthermore the distance between bases is much smaller, so a 7 pool my be viable.
any map where 10pool works on, 7pool will work as well.
The reason that the fast pool failed in Moon v HuK was because he tried it on Tal'Darim Altar. That map is too big for a fast-pool, for precisely the reason you described (you can complete a wall off before zerglings arrive).
See  8 Pool (vs. Protoss) for more details on fast-pooling in ZvP.
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In my experience, even if they have 2 pylons as part of the wall, unless the cannon is layed down extremely late, it will finish before you can break though. At least as P, this generally seems to be the case. I think only like 3 lings can hit each pylon at once (surface area), and it just isn't fast enough. Even if cannon is delayed, we have enough time to pull all of our probes to the wall and defend for a few seconds while you try and break through.
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In my experience, even if they have 2 pylons as part of the wall, unless the cannon is layed down extremely late, it will finish before you can break though. At least as P, this generally seems to be the case. I think only like 3 lings can hit each pylon at once (surface area), and it just isn't fast enough. Even if cannon is delayed, we have enough time to pull all of our probes to the wall and defend for a few seconds while you try and break through.
Thats right but as someone said earlier that only works on large maps, and taldarim is considerably larger than antiga. And you are also 100% correct about 3 lings only being able to hit a pylon....i splt my first 6 lings 3 hitting each pylon and each time i was able to destroy 2 pylons. If i see that they arent layering more buildings....i can mass lings....if not follow it up with an expand
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Or you could not forge expand at the ramp, and instead do a more back forge wall using the nexus. Think going FFE on destination in BW, same thing.
That being said I don't understand blizzard's obsession in mapmaking with making forge expands harder, they did the same thing making tal'darim's choke larger as well as re-working the back door on searing crater, making it impossible to forge expand on that map. I, as a zerg player, love FFE, it just makes better games.
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league and replays?
im a protoss player, and i although i concede ffe is popular, it is not the only fast expansion option.
for example, i can go for 3 gate sentry expand and secure a third easily with relatively low risk if you ten pool, because you would completely bust ur econ if you focus on only performing a runby. 3 base toss should be able to outpressure and simply outproduce 2 base zerg with a macro hatch >_>
also, how is this "abusing?" i view abusing as something like putting seige tanks in a ridiuclously hard hit position to decimate mineral lines and stop mining. not run-bys that may or may not work depending on building placement and spawn locations (4 player map, i am aware you can use drone scout and deduction). sneaking zerglings behind the mineral line assumes the toss is unaware and while i do admit there is ample space behind the mins, one or two sentries with one well place cannon will win simple because you have 10 lings no reinforcement; toss has 1 cannon, 1-2 sentries, 1 zealot, and reinforcements from chronoboost
and lastly, why do you assume protosses wall at the ramp leading to the expo? a protoss can easily wall using his nexus as a detour to force ling pressure away with a single well placed cannon. and with any type of hold, he has two options: expand and tech and roll you over that way, or execute a 6-7 gate +1 timing attack and run you over because youve been stuck on one base.
imo, save ur time and dont 7 pool.
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On July 29 2011 04:51 slim_z wrote:Show nested quote +In my experience, even if they have 2 pylons as part of the wall, unless the cannon is layed down extremely late, it will finish before you can break though. At least as P, this generally seems to be the case. I think only like 3 lings can hit each pylon at once (surface area), and it just isn't fast enough. Even if cannon is delayed, we have enough time to pull all of our probes to the wall and defend for a few seconds while you try and break through. Thats right but as someone said earlier that only works on large maps, and taldarim is considerably larger than antiga. And you are also 100% correct about 3 lings only being able to hit a pylon....i splt my first 6 lings 3 hitting each pylon and each time i was able to destroy 2 pylons. If i see that they arent layering more buildings....i can mass lings....if not follow it up with an expand
True. Why would the protoss not layer more buildings?
All i have to do is spend another 200ish minerals, delay my nexus, and im set. When you leave, i cancel the buildings, and prosper. I keep my probes at 15 untill I know what zerg is doing. i wont drop that Nexus if i feel anything fishy coming up.
Also, if i scout that early of a pool or see a few lings hitting my pylons, what stops me from sending all 15 probes to my wall and doing some defense. Even if i lose a couple of probes, im ahead, i think.
Im not bashing on it. It just feels to me that you are relying on your protoss playing a certain way, which is something you wont know till you scout. And its also very allin, if the toss defends well, they win. Its not possible for zerg to win without a higher econ, and its not possible for you to transition into an econ based gameplay fast enough before toss counters you. Kinda like saying toss can 4 gate and then fall back and play standard.
Also, after having played the new maps, I myself have been trying random different walls on all the maps, to see which seem best, us toss still figuring out the best openings. Another thing to think about is that a protoss player knows that ramp is huge, so they may just 3 gate expo on it untill all the cheese from the new season dissapears.
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Smart protoss already realize the ramp on this map is too big to wall. You don't FFE at the ramp on Antigua, you FFE as if it was metalopolis, or Shattered. You pylon near your natural nexus and wall with forge, gateway, and nexus. 10pool on this map will still work if protoss scouts you too late, hence the reason smart protoss pylon scouts on maps this big, and builds a forge before nexus if they don't scout you first, and scouts the other direction after forge (thus hitting the 2nd and 3rd available locations at the same time), and cannons before nexus if they scout any early pool (6pool = pylon in main and cannon in main, 10pool = cannon at natural)
In essence, I'm guessing you're a lower league player? Who's banking on protoss making poor decisions to "abuse" a big-ish 4p map.
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A 10 pool is a great option on this map. Actually, a 10 pool is a great option vs FFE in any case because:
a) you don't have to worry about cannons
b) if you do it destiny style, it (supposedly) has the same eco as a 15 hatch due to the faster queen, assuming you aren't forced to build more lings (which against an FFE will never happen)
c) it forces the protoss to not cut corners when they are FFE
d) you don't need ling speed as fast vs a FFE
Seems like on Antiga prime it's a lot better due to the option of sneaking lings through.
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It takes a pylon a forge and a gateway to connect ramp to natural. The best way to stop early pool with low ground pylon is to pylon + forge complete wall off on bottom of ramp and get a cannon right after forge finishes. Anyway, I hope you aren't talking about protoss who wall off that huge ramp in front of the natural because there is a much better way to FFE on this map.
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On July 29 2011 04:35 slim_z wrote:
So I noticed that the natural expansion on antiga shipyard is rather large. I also noticed protoss players tend to favour forge fast expanding on this map pretty much all the time. However compared to similar maps such as shakuras plateau and taldarim altar the layout of the map is such that to wall off completely you need more buildings. Furthermore the location of their cannons is such that if you were to sneak lings in you could easily attack the nexus at the natural expansion whilst being out of cannon range unless on the afromentioned maps.
Umm....you realize you just contradicted yourself? You said the natural is too big to forge fast expand on, which means you would run lings by. Well if that's the case, why on earth would any competent toss forge fast expand on this map?
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How do you know the protoss is going with a FFE? Do you scout before you have to throw your pool down so you can proceed with a normal build when the protoss does a 3 gate expand? It seems really risky to attempt this without knowing what the protoss is doing and scouting so early hurts your economy quite a bit.
btw. The reason Moon did an early pool build against HuK on TalDarim was because it's such a big 4 player map. This means that 1. every protoss goes FFE and 2. they will likely scout you late due to the large distance. This makes 7pool a viable build on that map while it isn't really viable on say Metalopolis because you are not guaranteed that the protoss goes FFE and you are likely scouted sooner.
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@novabossa
Well to be fair to the OP, he didnt contradict himself. the natural expo's size is usually irrelevant...
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No, the problem is that no protoss should ever use that HUGE ramp to forge fast expand on. The best FFE on this map is to connect pylon forge and gate to nexus. Vs early pool, toss can full wall off bottom of ramp and get cannon asap.
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I feel that this map is completely anti-protoss. FFE is more risky than FFE-ing on every other map, and since 3 gate fe now means autoloss for the toss, I think Blizzard just failed this map, but completely. I played one game on it, and after it I instantly voted it down (my vetos are all on new maps), this map completely disadvantages PvZ (and since the match-up is really hard for protoss, I think it's already enough)
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Yeah, I think Blizzard should make the ramp smaller. I haven't been earlypooled on this map yet but I imagine it's hard to defend.
Although I really think the map is protoss favored in this matchup. I dont think I have lost a single ZvP on this one yet. There is no safe 4th base to take for zerg, and 3base toss > 3base zerg.
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On August 02 2011 09:49 Sakray wrote:
I feel that this map is completely anti-protoss. FFE is more risky than FFE-ing on every other map, and since 3 gate fe now means autoloss for the toss, I think Blizzard just failed this map, but completely. I played one game on it, and after it I instantly voted it down (my vetos are all on new maps), this map completely disadvantages PvZ (and since the match-up is really hard for protoss, I think it's already enough)
Since when was that true, did I miss something?
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On August 02 2011 10:20 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 09:49 Sakray wrote:
I feel that this map is completely anti-protoss. FFE is more risky than FFE-ing on every other map, and since 3 gate fe now means autoloss for the toss, I think Blizzard just failed this map, but completely. I played one game on it, and after it I instantly voted it down (my vetos are all on new maps), this map completely disadvantages PvZ (and since the match-up is really hard for protoss, I think it's already enough) Since when was that true, did I miss something?
It's not an autoloss but protosses don't use it anymore because of the losira roachling timing.
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On August 02 2011 10:29 dooraven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 10:20 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:On August 02 2011 09:49 Sakray wrote:
I feel that this map is completely anti-protoss. FFE is more risky than FFE-ing on every other map, and since 3 gate fe now means autoloss for the toss, I think Blizzard just failed this map, but completely. I played one game on it, and after it I instantly voted it down (my vetos are all on new maps), this map completely disadvantages PvZ (and since the match-up is really hard for protoss, I think it's already enough) Since when was that true, did I miss something? It's not an autoloss but protosses don't use it anymore because of the losira roachling timing.
Well i really dislike words like "autoloss" because 99% of the players talking about "autolosses" lose because of other mistakes than a build order that's being defeated by some specific strategy.
On the other hand i am amused because players stop using certain strategies because some pros stopped using it. There's a ton of really brutal strategies that are still strong but no longer trendy and can win you a shit ton of games, even in master league.
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EPT
