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Hi (again),
Sorry I don't want to spam threads but there is one more thing I came to think about once I had tried out to seeker missile my own units.
There is another unit in starcraft2 that has a similar attack mechanism as the raven: The brood lord. It's broodlings are also following its target, once they are released.
I must say beforehand that I am a) not a good player and b) not at all a zerg player so I don't know how much use the following really is:
You can extend to range of the broodlord quite considerably. Lets say the terran opponent has sieged up with marines in front of his tanks and vikings above his marines. Your army is out of range of both though.
Now you can place a single zergling in front of your Broodlords and tell them to attack it. They will shot the broodlings, which instantly kills the zergling. But now you have a bunch of broodlings. If you have vision of the enemy forces and are near enough (but you can still be out of tank range) a part or the whole group will automatically head towards them. But if some stay (best is, I think if all stay) you can just attack klick one of the broodlings, the broodlords will attack again and this will result in you even having more broodlings. Now there evidently is a limit to that given the attack speed of the broodlords and the decay time of the broodlings. But you can mass them up a bit.
Now just select all but 1 or a few broodlings and attack move them in the enemys positiion. Then switch back to the brood lords and attack the broodling(s) that is left behind. Like this you will have a steady amount of "free" broodlings that you can stream towards your opponent or use for hm short range scouting or whatever.
The Broodlings are not that strong as with the "official" attack, because they do not land on the opponents forces but run towards it, which gives them more time to kill them. But still...you can delay pushes or slowly push forward.
I tried this a bit with the map editor. Not in a fight but just to test the mechanics. I found that if you queue up some attacks with the broodlords and send the broodlings in in the meanwhile, the attack becomes stronger because the broodlords will another round of fresh broodlings after the running ones. If you attack commanded to often and the brood lords start following the broodlings just attack klick again the broodling(s) that you left behind.
Again. I don't know if this is useful. But it surely works. And in the map editor I was able to slowly whitle down a marine tank force without even getting in the range of a viking. So you could keep your broodlords behind your anti air and if you are maxed out, the constant micro shouldn't be that much of a problem.
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Seems like a good idea, but doing that in game would be nearly impossible
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I see where you would think about this and it sounds like a sweet idea for having an extra meat sheild. But like Ownerage said it would probably be close to impossible to pull off in game. It would take too much focus and time. If you have a high enough apm you may be able to go for it though.
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On a similar note, i just saw a game betwen sjow and vibe on day9's site where sjow saved a hatchery from attackmoving marines by shoting his own larva with broodlords, which made broodslings spawn and delay the marines. He still lost the game, but i thought it was a pretty awesome move
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Could you post a replay of your map editor session? This sounds sick
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On July 28 2011 01:37 sweetbabyjesus wrote:
On a similar note, i just saw a game betwen sjow and vibe on day9's site where sjow saved a hatchery from attackmoving marines by shoting his own larva with broodlords, which made broodslings spawn and delay the marines. He still lost the game, but i thought it was a pretty awesome move
I wanna see that game. Could you post a link?
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There is also the other huge side of things that you are giving up in the opening double-attack.
It tends not to be listed anywhere, but broodlords spawn 1 broodling per attack, and deal 20 damage per attack.
Everybody knows Broodlords by default have 2 broodlings floating with them, so your first attack is a double attack. An extra 20 damage might not sound like a lot to you, but vs Marines and Medivacs, it can easily make the difference between 1 more dead Marine and 1 more dead Brood Lord.
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This does't seem like it would be very effective in a actual game compared to just attacking normally with the broodlords.
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the first attack does spawn an additional broodling, but does not deal 40 damage, only the standard 20.
Edit: spelling
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On July 28 2011 01:56 CoughHarder wrote:
the first attack does spawn an additional broodling, but does not deal 40 damage, only the standard 20.
Edit: spelling
this is the correct response. the delay allows another broodling to spawn, but the damage from the initial attack is always 20.
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On July 28 2011 01:37 prowala wrote:
Could you post a replay of your map editor session? This sounds sick
I will, once I've figured out how to make a replay of a map editor session. I just clicked test the map and started sending broodlings towards the enemy forces I placed a bit away (marked them as "enemy" in the editor)...well I'll try.
On July 28 2011 01:47 Jermstuddog wrote:
There is also the other huge side of things that you are giving up in the opening double-attack.
It tends not to be listed anywhere, but broodlords spawn 1 broodling per attack, and deal 20 damage per attack.
I think it is listed, at least I've read it somewhere. But I'm not giving anything up. The Broodlings you are able to produce are acutally free (if you leave aside the cost of 1 zergling it initially needed) and at this moment your broodlords shoulb be way out of range to shoot the enemy directly. (You can more than double the range of the Broodlord like this). The 2 Broodlings on their side will regenerate. Even while doing this constand flooding you don't have to attack command that fast. Just wait untill the 2 Broodlings have returned on the broodlord's wings and attack the remaining broodlings again..and you will again have a broodling spawn.
On July 28 2011 01:51 pepperman wrote:
This does't seem like it would be very effective in a actual game compared to just attacking normally with the broodlords.
I don't know if you can pull it of in a real battle. But it isn't meant to be an alternative to the normal attack. If the broodlord can safely get in range of their target, sure you would use their normal way of attacking. As I said, this deals more damage than what I stumbled upon.
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I don't think you're correctly informed on how brood lord mechanics work
The main DPS of brood lords is the initial attack from impact damage by the brood lings. The brood lings themselves do very little damage, less than that of a zergling.
So by sending your ~8 broodlings you'd get into a tank/marine ball you'd basically accomplish nothing but wasting your broodling "ammo" for when the terran decides to push into you.
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On July 28 2011 02:18 xHassassin wrote:
I don't think you're correctly informed on how brood lord mechanics work
The main DPS of brood lords is the initial attack from impact damage by the brood lings. The brood lings themselves do very little damage, less than that of a zergling.
So by sending your ~8 broodlings you'd get into a tank/marine ball you'd basically accomplish nothing but wasting your broodling "ammo" for when the terran decides to push into you.
If you would have read the threat, you should have noticed that I am very well aware of that. Didn't I write that the attack is less stronger because of how the normal broodlord attack works????
And you are not waisting anything. The brood lords can be far away so that the regenerate their broodlings until an army would be in range. Yes maybe you can't do much with those "extra broodlings" from far away. But a) that doesn't have to be the case and b) I think you might could slowpush like this. because the constant stream of broodlings will make it harder for the terran to advance forward.
After all: Look, it's just an idea. I mean how can u say: That certainly won't work a single bit, for sure?
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Killing your own zergling for 1 pair of broodlings to.. get range? Why wouldn't you just sac the zergling to get vision? If your opponent has any defense at all, 1 pair of broodlings won't get you any vision anyway. You would need maybe 4-5 pairs, which is 4-5 zerglings, which is hurting your army a tad. Not big i know, but i don't get why you wouldn't just use lings
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On July 28 2011 02:29 phiinix wrote:
Killing your own zergling for 1 pair of broodlings to.. get range? Why wouldn't you just sac the zergling to get vision? If your opponent has any defense at all, 1 pair of broodlings won't get you any vision anyway. You would need maybe 4-5 pairs, which is 4-5 zerglings, which is hurting your army a tad. Not big i know, but i don't get why you wouldn't just use lings
You initially get as many pairs of broodlings as you have Broodlords (or maybe there is a limit, but more than 1 will shoot). Then you shoot again and will get even more Broodlings. Also I think this could be used for more than just vision.
Sure you can use lings. I came to the conclusion that there is a possibility to get a pack of broodlings over and over agains just from one zergling. And I thought that may be usefull and that this way u can extend the broodlord range while loosing a part of the damage they deal (but you couldn't attack on such a long range otherwise). That's what I am saying.
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Holy shit, that's a brilliant idea!
Also just realized this with HSM and with Ravens, wow that will be interesting. HSM'ing your own units (too bad there aren't that many fast units aside from Banshee and Hellion... assuming you're going Air style so you don't have stim marines, unless you're going Marine/Raven) and then running into the Broodlords or whatever unit or just running under them.
Hope this is one of those micro things we will see more of in the future when the players get better 
Edit:
NEW IDEA
How about after you have some broodlings, you could even bring 1 back, and then shoot more broodlings. If i'm not mistaken, after the first shot you start shooting 2 broodlings at once right? so although it would be hard to do fast, it could be a nice trick just to get some tanks to splash some marines or vision or whatnot.
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On July 28 2011 02:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Holy shit, that's a brilliant idea! Also just realized this with HSM and with Ravens, wow that will be interesting. HSM'ing your own units (too bad there aren't that many fast units aside from Banshee and Hellion... assuming you're going Air style so you don't have stim marines, unless you're going Marine/Raven) and then running into the Broodlords or whatever unit or just running under them. Hope this is one of those micro things we will see more of in the future when the players get better
Thx. I think I do better thinking than playing *g. Well there is the reaper that is fast too. And if you go for ravens you will have to spend your minerals somehow...so getting marines or hellions is almost necessary and then you should get stim to at some point. But I really haven't figured out (if at all) when to start with this raven seeker attack. It seemed to me that early on killing drones is most important but then its hard to get ravens and not beeing killed meanwhile so...
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On July 28 2011 02:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Edit:
NEW IDEA
How about after you have some broodlings, you could even bring 1 back, and then shoot more broodlings. If i'm not mistaken, after the first shot you start shooting 2 broodlings at once right? so although it would be hard to do fast, it could be a nice trick just to get some tanks to splash some marines or vision or whatnot.
Yes, actually I wrote about that in the original post. You don't send in all your broodlings but keep one (or as many as it will end up) back, switch to your broodlords and attack them so that you get fresh broodlings. Like this you theoretically can always reproduce them for free.
It's not even that hard to do, I made a broodlord map where I tried this out and was able to sustain a steady stream of broodlings after just some attempts...and I am a silver league player with baad micro.
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In theory, this sounds amazing. If you can pull it all off without losing too much time. Great OP.
P.S. It's kinds pathetic how so many people post without reading all of the initial post.
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I have made a short replay to illustrate my idea. It's from a map I shortly made. You will see that the damage the broodlings are able to make against the tank line with the marines is minimal. But they aren't upgraded at all and it's just so show what I mean. Also it surely could be done way better. I quite often slip. I think from approx min 5 I keep producing broodlings for quite some time.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/5vjmfr8qaslkkqj/broodlordidea.SC2Replay
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I think this is a wonderful idea!
Zerg's Problems:
1) Dealing with Siege Units.
A) Extra Broodlings take tank fire, as opposed to actual units in ZvT. Vikings aren't in range when you are massing broodlings. Marines can't engage near broods as fast because of meatshield. Overall, extremely useful.
2) PvZ: Blink Stalkers have a hard time blinking under broodlords when there already is broodlings. Void rays can't kill broodlords while they're massing up. Roach Broodlord Infestor becomes even more ridiculously viable. Overall, Extremely useful.
IMHO: The Broodlord is just way better then the ultralisk and with these micro tactics it is going to become a neccesity of the zerg army, like the infestor.
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Thanks for appreciating the idea :-). For me it feels like there could be some potential to it, too. Or maybe it's just a gimmick. I don't know.
Your points are interesting because simply to keep the broodlings streaming in, you dont have to use a lot of micro at all. You can place a zergling in a way so that the broodling resulting from attacking it all but a few automatically head towards the enemy. On the few remaining on you then can throw again fresh broodlings. Like this you won't be able to "mass" broodlings but you would have a constant little stream of them, while not having to use a lot of time for this.
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It sounds cool, but it probably would,t work very well, as the initial attack of the BL is very strong, and there just wouldn't be enough Broodlings for it to be worth the effort.
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On July 28 2011 04:14 Nemasyst.598 wrote:
It sounds cool, but it probably would,t work very well, as the initial attack of the BL is very strong, and there just wouldn't be enough Broodlings for it to be worth the effort.
I have uploaded a little replay of a map editor session. You are right in this case the broodlings don't do much, but they can become quite a few. and even when they do not hit the enemy directly from air, they do considerable amount of damage I think. In a lot of replays you see for example terran forces retreating while the broodlings are following them and they then still manage to be rather harmful (but sure, its not the same situation as if they would ran towards a standing army)
Edit: I mean if you are interested in seeing how it works in principle.
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As I am no Zerg player. I have a question: What is the "usual" (if somethink like this exists) number of broodlords, that you manage to get? 5 to 8?
I just ask because I'd like to try this out against a computer enemy.
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On July 28 2011 17:26 baas wrote:
As I am no Zerg player. I have a question: What is the "usual" (if somethink like this exists) number of broodlords, that you manage to get? 5 to 8?
I just ask because I'd like to try this out against a computer enemy.
A normal number in lategamewould be, as you said, 5-8. In late-lategame it could as much as 12+ though.
OT I think that this can be very useful, maybe not to deal damage but to tank the fire from the tanks.
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On July 28 2011 19:27 UniQ.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 17:26 baas wrote:
As I am no Zerg player. I have a question: What is the "usual" (if somethink like this exists) number of broodlords, that you manage to get? 5 to 8?
I just ask because I'd like to try this out against a computer enemy.
A normal number in lategamewould be, as you said, 5-8. In late-lategame it could as much as 12+ though. OT I think that this can be very useful, maybe not to deal damage but to tank the fire from the tanks.
Ok, thanks. I will try to try this out. I think one benefit would also be that you can get an idea of how big his army is and how it is spread out, when he is off creep. But as I said, I'm no zerg player so, maybe someone who is, could tell us here, if he has tried it out and made it work.
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EPT
