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On September 04 2011 18:54 Girondelle wrote:
In my opinion the main reason TOP lost is the fact that he salvaged the bunkers and headed back home after killing the hatchery.
There is no reason to let the zerg retake his natural only 1 min after loosing it. If I am in TOP's shoes i make a third bunker at the natural and play defensive.
A zerg on 1 base cannot do much against a terran with mules.
We saw the same aftermath at MLG Raleigh in NaDa vs DRG : NaDa kills the hatch but no drones, he backs off, DRG double expands and win.
Nada didn't back off properly. If he managed to salvage both bunkers and retained all of his scvs and rines, he would be fine. DRG didn't lose any drones, and the lings he massed up killed all of nada's forces cost effectively in terms of larva-wise, both drones and zerglings cost 1 larva. DRG didnt even bother to maynard his drones, he was mining with 100% of his drones. The only situation when terran should stay after killing zerg's natural is when his bunker placement has very small surface area for zerglings to attack, thus being able to trade cost effectively.
Instead of getting more ahead after being ahead, the proper way is getting more ahead while attempting to trade army. This way you can keep the losing side honest, you will kill him if he attempts to be greedy. Even if you are trading slightly cost ineffectively due to defender's advantage, you will still be ahead since economy grows exponentially.
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On that map with those spawns, seeing roaches came a bit unexpected i belief and that allowed losira to get through with his double expand cheese.
Since he didn't loose drones but 50% of his larva production, the decision to go on the larva cheap roaches was quiet good, but on that map attacking with them is pretty hopeless without speed. So imo thats why he went for the double expand (always be 1 base ahead of the terran).
If top would have scouted that in time, he would have probably won quiet easily. But since he never really get to kill drones, he was badly behind. (guess top went for the hatch since he never expected roaches on this map, so he decided to cut the larva production of losira and have him sit on a pile of overmins)
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He also just stuck with producing units, he didn't get upgrades or even tech to lair until he had that 'one favourable battle'. Because he knew TOP was in a mindset of 'I have a huge advantage, better finish him off now'.
Also, those hellions were in a position to kill every drone on the expo when they attacked, that could have cost him the game easily.
There was also the point with the burrowed banelings. TOP moved out to what I think was a marine tank push, but when he saw the banelings burrowing, he stopped dead in his tracks and sieged up. He didn't have detection at all - and no energy on the OC I think (saw the commentary not the replay) and there he missed a good window.
A lot of ifs and buts.
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I often lose games like this. Glad to see it's not totally nooby.
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On September 04 2011 19:06 Herculix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 18:54 Girondelle wrote:
In my opinion the main reason TOP lost is the fact that he salvaged the bunkers and headed back home after killing the hatchery.
There is no reason to let the zerg retake his natural only 1 min after loosing it. If I am in TOP's shoes i make a third bunker at the natural and play defensive.
A zerg on 1 base cannot do much against a terran with mules.
We saw the same aftermath at MLG Raleigh in NaDa vs DRG : NaDa kills the hatch but no drones, he backs off, DRG double expands and win. the problem with that is terrans don't think it's actually viable to do that. you could easily go back to your base, put a marine at the third and macro like a normal game. if your marine blocks a random drone you know what's up before it happens and you might even kill the drone. your suggestion is viable but that's turning pressure into something highly commital since if you lose all those units and you force zerg to make the units to kill it, you will also fail to hold your expo to zerg's remaining units and things will get really weird.
Yep it's true, but at least you force him to mine some gas to get either roaches or banelings wich is not a zerg wants to do. Losira pulled drones off gaz after he started ling speed.
What you wanna do, is force the zerg to engage in a non cost effective fight in order to retake his natural. There after if you don't expand too quickly you should be safe and ahead.
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I feel terran waited a lot before expanding, while having the ressources and armies to do so; he got overdefensive and waited for an all in (like a baneling bust) which never came...
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TOP could probably have ended the game right away after killing off the expansion, or at least set up a heavy contain instead of just pulling back completely. TOP's next attacks were very cost inefficient due to Losira's great unit compositions and micro. I feel like TOP played way too passively and failed to use the correct units / upgrades at the right times.
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On September 04 2011 21:56 aRRoSC2 wrote:
TOP could probably have ended the game right away after killing off the expansion, or at least set up a heavy contain instead of just pulling back completely. TOP's next attacks were very cost inefficient due to Losira's great unit compositions and micro. I feel like TOP played way too passively and failed to use the correct units / upgrades at the right times.
I don't think there's a really cost effective way to contain a zerg given the unit production off a two-rax.
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Well few days ago i played one top eu zerg i killed his expo with 2 rax (not proxy),after that he did doble expo and i did same marine helion push he just had too many units and too powerfull eco after i asked him how is that posible after getting too far befind he sad that i lost 3 scvs and i was scared of counter allin so i waited to ling to putt expo in nat so he got a lot ahead,also he sad that zerg are making mistake with pulling all drones just to take bunker.
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On September 04 2011 22:31 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 21:56 aRRoSC2 wrote:
TOP could probably have ended the game right away after killing off the expansion, or at least set up a heavy contain instead of just pulling back completely. TOP's next attacks were very cost inefficient due to Losira's great unit compositions and micro. I feel like TOP played way too passively and failed to use the correct units / upgrades at the right times. I don't think there's a really cost effective way to contain a zerg given the unit production off a two-rax.
well, the easiest way is to drop a scan in his main about 30 seconds after you finished off his hatch to see if he's mining gas. If he is, prepare for the all-in. If he isn't, drop 3 more raxes and just go and kill him with his crippled production (after you've verified that he's not going quick banelings off of it).
I remember Idra saying that the main reason why he hatched first (was a while back, but still) was that otherwise he wouldn't have enough larvae to hold off a marine scv all-in. Ergo, killing off his hatch would mean that he'd be unable to stop it.
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whats your problem guys? nothing special if you ask me
so after the bunker rush they are equal on harvesting workers (yeah actually they are not but terran has mules)
look at the army size:
Losira has tons of speedlings top has a few marines.
furthermore top has to rearange all of his buildings cause he maybe has to defend a banelingbus allin.
So he cant produce units for a short period of time.
he cant keep up with zerg droning.
he cant go out cause his army is still too small and therefore he cant expand.
Meanwhile losira can drone up like crazy and is in early midgame already 10drones and 2 bases ahead.
yeah maybe he got a little bit lucky going roaches but as we all know losira he probably knew what hes doing cause he probably experienced such attacks before and he probalby could defend that with banelings too so yeah.
from that point on its a regular zvt and losira won
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On September 04 2011 22:48 Coopa826 wrote:
whats your problem guys? nothing special if you ask me
so after the bunker rush they are equal on harvesting workers (yeah actually they are not but terran has mules)
look at the army size:
Losira has tons of speedlings top has a few marines.
furthermore top has to rearange all of his buildings cause he maybe has to defend a banelingbus allin.
So he cant produce units for a short period of time.
he cant keep up with zerg droning.
he cant go out cause his army is still too small and therefore he cant expand.
Meanwhile losira can drone up like crazy and is in early midgame already 10drones and 2 bases ahead.
yeah maybe he got a little bit lucky going roaches but as we all know losira he probably knew what hes doing cause he probably experienced such attacks before and he probalby could defend that with banelings too so yeah.
from that point on its a regular zvt and losira won
well, the crazy thing here is that, after killing the hatch, zerg is still ahead or at least equal.
basically, either TOP did something wrong, or 11/11 proxy barracks is just a bad build period.
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I feel like if Top had followed up with Banshees instead of the usual marine tank play he would have won. Considering that it's Losira he's facing, the banshees probably wouldn't have won outright but maybe would have at least been able to pick off the 3rd.
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While it was definitely a bit of a risky play to take the fast 3rd, I don't think it's quite as fluky as ppl are making out in this thread. After TOP fell back, Losira moved out with his lings and forced a cancel on a low-ground bunker at TOP's natural. From this, he could reasonably deduce that TOP was going for an expo rather than a 1-base play like banshees or some all-in. He confirmed it seconds later by running up TOP's ramp and seeing (I believe) the CC after TOP moved it to help simcity in case of a baneling bust.
My opinion is that it was a calculated risk by Losira, and his experience and game sense served him well. Sure TOP could have been faking an expo and going banshees, but unless you suspect mind-games, I think what Losira saw indicated a terran expo, and therefore a later attack.
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The correct answer to this question is that Zerg is overpowered =P
However, essentially the thing with Zerg is that they have one of the highest recovery rates for being their race. The get more ahead syndrome only works very well against Protoss and Terran, because there is ONLY so much that they *can* do, where as the decision tree for Zerg is crazy.
Hence, since Losira was pretty behind, the ONLY plausible thing that he could've probably done *is* the double expo. Once you've narrowed your choices down, then you pretty much have what it takes as your path to get back. Once you get back, you win~
Simple as that. Perhaps if Losira was Toss, TOP expanding would have put him much much farther ahead.
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LosirA is just way better than TOP?
I'm actually being serious here; two equally skilled opponents together in this same situation yields a different outcome (zerg loses). Basically, LosirA takes a risk to get back in the game and TOP didn't respond correctly, that's about it.
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Although he seemed a bit undecided about whether or not he could defend against the 2 rax he eventually decided not to and didn't lose any drones. So he wasn't actually that far behind.
His early 3rd was basically a macro hatch early on he didn't have drones for it. He ended up not needing lair tech to defend which basically put him back in the game. The terran made a mistake by not making anything to deal with roaches in his timed attack.
So basically Lorsira wasn't doing anything to fancy he was just sacing all his tech in the hopes that the terran screws up and lets him back into the game. Which he did. The terran thought he was so far ahead he could just walk over and win. He would have been had Losira tried to tech.
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On July 27 2011 02:05 Zarahtra wrote:
He was ahead there after that succesful attack, but lost due to going after Artosis motto: "When ahead, get more ahead", which translates imo pretty poorly into TvP and TvZ.
No. The Artosis motto works fine, but you can't let someone double expand when they have no way to defend it.
Losira got lucky and Top put on no pressure. Not only that, but a hellion follow-up was a terrible idea honestly. He should have immediately grabbed stim and did a nice marine tank timing while taking a third.
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Losira took the two expansions because when TOP killed the overlords he had to halt production to get more ovies up, letting his money skyrocket. Once he got the overlords up, he still wasnt able to use all of his resources because he didnt have enough larvae and there was simply too much money. Double expanding makes sense at this point because: 1. He can afford too 2. Because he was so far behind he wanted to drone as hard as possible to reduce TOP's lead by double expanding while delaying TOP's expansion 3. if TOP had pushed he would have only been able to destroy one of the expansions, meaning that Losira could lose one while sending reinforcements to the other 4. its always a good thing to have as many hatches as you can as zerg, even if they dont mine instantly, because they produce larvae, and a fully saturated base is able to support production off of more then one hatchery
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Losira didn't get pushed when he double expo'd. Those banelings were amazing <3 He was agressive with his lings, and macro'd up. He had excellent micro (nearly perfect), and was smart with his units; he didn't try to save his natural. btw he didn't lose an scv, the 50 mins were from salvaging the bunkers
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EPT
