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Whatever these guys were talking about vikings, forget it.
Yes, voidrays do extra dmg against vikings, but vikings also do extra dmg against voidrays.
But with the higher range you can stay with ur vikings above your marines and attack the voidrays.
If he attack your vikings your marines will clean up his voidrays, if he pull back he is loosing time because a voidrayopening is mostly an allin or semi-allin with cutted probes or very late expansion.
If you play without vikings and only marines the voidrays will outrange your marines and kill buildings near a cliff or just kite your marines.
Additional most protoss player combine voidrays with stalker, just because terran will try to counter voidray with marines, but then the stalker roflstomp your marines because you dont have marauder.
If i play against a voidray opening i do build 2 turrets just to safe my mineralline. If he attack your turrets just repair em.
My units will be vikings, marines, marauder. When you cleaned the voidrays or the contain you can lift of your second cc and take your expansion. Then you should add some ghosts and medivacs. If he do more voidrays or colossi dont stop producing vikings.
regards,
Crytch, 1.8000 points Masterleague Terran EU
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Thanks, guys! I've won 7 games (including placement for season 3) and lost 2 today! My last game was against a high silver who 6-pooled me badly, but facing someone a league higher still made me happy. I'm sitting at bronze rank 8 (6 before my last loss), so I'm really happy with that. The other loss was to a Terran while I tried the build that Spam suggested (although it worked amazingly against the other 2 races). Right now, I'm using the SCV that builds the barracks to scout as soon as the rax is finished, but in my last game zerglings were in my base before I was even halfway to his main, and my opening only had 1 marine to defend against it. Should I scout really early just as a precaution against cheese, even though I won't get much information otherwise?
Also, even though vikings do extra damage against void rays, the micro required to stay out of range is something I just don't have yet. My mechanics/micro aren't nearly good enough to do something like that (My APM is around 35-45 right now, and I have no clue how to get it higher).
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You APM will go up as you play. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT. I can't stress that enough.
A lot of people here might seem to be making a big deal about APM, but usually its a just a way of saying whether a player can handle certain builds and units. At your point in the game, it does not matter, you can have 40 APM and get to diamond.
The only way to improve APM is to play play play. And don't play relaxed, but played stressed. You can compare it to jogging and sprinting. If you jog a lot, you can become a faster sprinter, and probably will, but if you sprinter a lot you will definitely become a faster sprinter. Its the relaxed state of mind to the stressed state of mind.
And I don't mean stressed as not having fun and getting heart attack make a big deal out of the game. I just can't think of a better word.
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I wouldn't necessarily send out a super early scout, I would practice defending against it. Though if you send out a scout at the same time you start your barracks, you should see the zerglings running toward your base with enough time so complete your wall. Practice having someone 6 pool you and try to fight it off (if you don't manage to complete your wall). That way even if you slip up you should be in a good position to defend against it. The key to defending the 6 pool is keeping a marine alive and either having a bunker that will also be in range to protect your workers, or having your workers act as a shield for your marine. Obviously the less workers you lose the better. If you fight off his lings without using too much, you should have an easy win!
Edit: What TheTomato said is spot on. Don't worry about APM... it'll naturally go up as you get better probably to around 60 APM. The more important part is that you're doing the things you need to do with the APM you have.
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Based on everybody else's comments, Macro is easily the biggest problem here, not your inability to counter Void Rays.
As a player, you need to utilise your resources more. Spend them sooner on more units and more supply buildings if you feel you are close to being supply blocked.
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On July 26 2011 17:38 Spam4119 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 17:34 iSoLow wrote:
First of all, don't wall off, it's just inviting void rays to come knocking on your door. Anyways to counter, you first have to know whether or not his going void rays. I usually hide an SCV in their base, and scout them after a while. However, if your SCV gets killed, and you found out too late, build marines out of your rax. I don't know what you mean by vikings not being able to catch up to void rays. Once you get vikings and marines, you'll have to hit them before their Colos. come out to kill your marines(not a good sight). Get 1 or 2 turrets at your main entrance just in case they decide to come from the front. and you should be using your vikings to come at them from the back and blocking their way of exiting and your marines should be on the other side. Anyways good luck!!! lolwut? Wall off against protoss. Especially at your level. There is a lot wrong with this post. For example... missile turrets at main entrance isnt the best idea except for detection. Missile turrets should be built around mineral lines first since that is the most important part of your base. Also... voidrays straight into colossus is kinda an interesting tech route... particularly if u have any number of vikings since 1 viking can kill infinite colossus.
Uh sorry man, but walling off against protoss is inviting him to harass your wall with void rays. This is true for any level of play. That doesn't mean you shouldn't wall off thought. There are situations when you want to wall off and situations when you don't. If you are fast expanding, walling off is a good idea because the protoss won't have a change to harass your wall, and that wall can be useful later.
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Probes and pylons my friend. Probes and pylons 
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On July 26 2011 10:22 Giwoon wrote:
first of all
dont make turrets you should be spending your minerals on more rax/marines
and engage after the void rays charge cools off
then after killing all the VRs just counter with all your remaining force with reinforcements and win
ezpz
and dont make vikings, they get wrecked by voidrays cuz voidrays do extra dmg to armour lol
EDIT: get a real mouse lol
Pretty sure vikings do extra damage to armor too. And the 25 range of the vikings lets you drive the voids away since they cannot engage the marines and vikings.
But better yet, just wall with 2-3 bunkers and you will be fine.
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It happened again, just before I went to finish my wall off, zerglings came again. I couldn't believe I was about to get 6 pooled again, but then this happened:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10390
I didn't think I could have handled it any worse, but apparently I did something right.
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Just work on your macro. If you need to play against the computer, and have a goal of never letting your money go above 400.
Expand earlier, and make plenty of marines, and upgrade them. Ghosts also help.
I wouldn't suggest vikings unless you are able to micro them perfectly.
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On July 26 2011 17:34 iSoLow wrote:
First of all, don't wall off, it's just inviting void rays to come knocking on your door. Anyways to counter, you first have to know whether or not his going void rays. I usually hide an SCV in their base, and scout them after a while. However, if your SCV gets killed, and you found out too late, build marines out of your rax. I don't know what you mean by vikings not being able to catch up to void rays. Once you get vikings and marines, you'll have to hit them before their Colos. come out to kill your marines(not a good sight). Get 1 or 2 turrets at your main entrance just in case they decide to come from the front. and you should be using your vikings to come at them from the back and blocking their way of exiting and your marines should be on the other side. Anyways good luck!!!
walling of depends on the build u are doing and walling off in lower league games is very helpful seeing how much they rush and how they cant scout this rushes
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Details don't matter. Macro is definitely key to the reason why you lost the first game. You saw his voids very early. you should know and react by making lots of marines instead. If you have enough marines, it does not matter how many cannons they have, you just kill him with 50 marines. He does not have much stuff either. And don't ever let your main mine out that fast. Expand early and often. and vikings are definitely NOT the counters to voids. nor the tanks or the hellions because they cannot shoot up. Devote all your resources to marines and scv's and a couple of marauders just for the ground. You will be well set vs void rays. if you see robo tech, you have to go for more marauders than marines. react to what they have.
Another note is, if you really feel uncomfortable about what he is doing, drop one scan after you call down your 2nd MULE (that will be the 3rd time you have enough energy, and it would be around 7 minutes if you constantly dropping MULES). Drop it in his main, and usually you should see what kind of tech he is doing. Otherwise, just constantly poke up the ramp with one marine and try to take over the watch towers.
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On July 27 2011 05:43 bamman1108 wrote:
Thanks, guys! I've won 7 games (including placement for season 3) and lost 2 today! My last game was against a high silver who 6-pooled me badly, but facing someone a league higher still made me happy. I'm sitting at bronze rank 8 (6 before my last loss), so I'm really happy with that. The other loss was to a Terran while I tried the build that Spam suggested (although it worked amazingly against the other 2 races). Right now, I'm using the SCV that builds the barracks to scout as soon as the rax is finished, but in my last game zerglings were in my base before I was even halfway to his main, and my opening only had 1 marine to defend against it. Should I scout really early just as a precaution against cheese, even though I won't get much information otherwise?
Also, even though vikings do extra damage against void rays, the micro required to stay out of range is something I just don't have yet. My mechanics/micro aren't nearly good enough to do something like that (My APM is around 35-45 right now, and I have no clue how to get it higher).
When I always scout is with my first SCV i send to build my first supply depot. I send that one out as soon as it is done (I queue it up) and I time sending another from my mineral line to start building the rax. You should be able to see any 6 pool (worst case scenario is you will see the lings running in the middle of the map). at that point you just invest EVERYTHING into walling off. It doesn't matter what your supply count is, your rax should already be started at your wall so you add another supply depot instantly. be prepared to send a few SCVs to repair your wall because the 6 pool will arrive before your first marine pops. about 4 or 5 scvs is more then enough to repair (set to auto repair by right clicking the repair button) to help. then while they do that ur 1 marine, and soon more to follow, will kill the zerglings from behind the wall.
Just remember, that build is to help train your fingers. There is a point where it wont work too well any longer... i believe that was upper gold league for me. It works best against protoss. It works well against terran as long as they dont have a bunker at the wall (if they do that is a good time to pull back). just make sure to target fire all his marines first. as long as he wasnt going for a marine rush and didn't have a bunker it should at least put you in the lead since you will have more marines, maruaders die to marines, and the next closest thing in the tech line that is good at killing marines, besides more marines, are hellions.
Just keep using that build whenever though. It taught me me to constantly produce SCVs, produce attacking units, and be aware of my supply count especially at the beginning stages of the game.
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the counter for voidrays is marines. 4 std marines kill a voidray.
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On July 27 2011 06:37 Hybris wrote:
Uh sorry man, but walling off against protoss is inviting him to harass your wall with void rays. This is true for any level of play. That doesn't mean you shouldn't wall off thought. There are situations when you want to wall off and situations when you don't. If you are fast expanding, walling off is a good idea because the protoss won't have a change to harass your wall, and that wall can be useful later.
I dont play against many players who see a terran wall and go "I SHOULD PUNISH IT WITH VOIDRAYS" considering pretty much every terran builds a wall. and a voidray rush is pretty much a blind build, as in you decide before the game starts you are rushing voidrays.
Also remember his level. I am upper platinum and I build a wall for every matchup just to be safe. without a wall you can die to a lot of stupid things worse then voidrays, and a lot more common too. Never forget what it is like playing at his level. Now that I am in platinum I have a much better game sense. I pretty much know what is possible early in the game and what isn't. I remember the first time I played against insane AI in a team match (this was when I was still in platinum) my teammate and I got stomped (he was bronze lol). But as soon as I saw that first push my initial reaction was "there is no way that is possible without some unfair advantage." And then in score screen is when I realized that they did start with more workers and I was happy with myself for being able to just tell that the push that came was not possible under normal circumstances.
But when you are in bronze... everything is scary in that black void known as the fog of war. I still wasn't sure what each tech building of the other races looked like, or what each building was used for, so even with scouting I might not know what units could be made of other races. Gas timing is completely unhelpful since people will go gas haphazardly. Voidrays are a problem not because voidrays are imba. but because they are a very beefy unit, its an easy build, and it takes advantage of a lot of lower league players simply not being as efficient in their builds as possible and not having nearly as many units as they would normally have. Basically a voidray rush allows lower league players to do a build close to the same timing it would be in upper leagues, against players who don't have that efficiency.
So to say "don't build a wall, it is easily taken out by voidrays" seems like a good idea. I would only recommend that if you know that each protoss you went against was going only voidrays. then yea, no need for a wall. what if he goes dark templar? an scv wall repair might be the only thing that keeps you alive. or a proxy gate zealot rush? or a normal zealot stalker push? You might be like "well you have to stutter step your marines and pull half your scvs and you will be fine." But that is not so easy to do when you are just now practicing the timing of the stutter step and there is no way you can quickly select your SCVs and attack with them in time.
When giving advice, always remember what the person is capable of. If I came for help the advice I would need would be a lot different because I could handle things like pulling SCVs and attacking while keeping production up. and the advice I would need is something completely different then what somebody like QXC would need.
So at this stage of the game, I would say always build a wall. You might not need it in 10 games. But that 11th game it might just save you. While 1 in 20 games is when having a wall is more of a hindrance than help. I would say a wall off will have save you a lot more then it will be a problem for you.
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On July 28 2011 02:28 bamman1108 wrote:It happened again, just before I went to finish my wall off, zerglings came again. I couldn't believe I was about to get 6 pooled again, but then this happened: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10390I didn't think I could have handled it any worse, but apparently I did something right.
I dont have a chance to check your replay at this moment. But from what I know about 6 pooling is that usually the best defense a lot of times is simply constant SCV production. if you keep constant SCV production you should have more then enough SCVs to kill his zerglings. particularly if you have good positioning with them (surrounds are best... chokes are bad where only 1 or 2 SCVs are fighting at once). just make sure to finish that wall even after they are in your base to help cut off reinforcements. dont miss any opportunity to mine either. it becomes a micro battle at this point. as soon as the lings attack your scvs attack back, if he pulls lings back go straight back to mining. and continue this back and forth. because chasing lings around your base can be just as harmful as losing a lot of scvs since you arent gaining any income. and every moment he has you not mining he is catching back up.
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EPT
