EPTSolved the matchup!
No seriously, this is a pungent cheese but its not "unbeatable". It is simply a more powerful than average form cheese.
[D] 2v2 Z/P uncounterable cannon rush vs T or P - Page 2
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Solved the matchup! No seriously, this is a pungent cheese but its not "unbeatable". It is simply a more powerful than average form cheese. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On June 15 2011 11:50 aztecx wrote: Keep in mind I haven't watched the replay but... No offense, but theorycraft doesn't really help here. 13 pool is terribly late and will have nowhere near enough lings to deal with it, nor is it at all standard in 2v2. Best case scenario = you 10 pool and hold off the zerg, overlord catches the protoss starting to build immediately, teammate pulls workers to stop the pylon and probe. The rush is denied, but you're now behind in the game because the protoss lost no mining time while your teammate did. This also requires parking your overlord at the teammate's ramp, which means it's not scouting the usual locations for proxy gates or cannon rush. Best case scenario if there's no zerg on your team = your teammate is dead and you're now playing 1v2. I've read through a few of the other comments and it seems like you have an issue with scouting. I think maybe you should sort that out before calling a build you lost to uncounterable. There are teams I play against that have far sicker cheese than this and they're still beatable. My team has 973 points in masters league and is ranked #108 NA. I am curious what this "far sicker cheese" is that you have seen, and I suspect it was seen in platinum league. That sounds ruder than I intended, but my point is I don't feel it's appropriate to post "haven't seen replay, not familiar with the situation, but if you scout and lrn2play and repair it's ez wins, I've faced way stronger cheese". Repairing doesn't work (cannons kill SCV) and lings don't go up the ramp until cannons have broken a hole in the wall. This build is not literally unstoppable, you can either use it yourself or simply always counterattack and turn the game into 1v1. But it is uncounterable in the sense there is no "do this, you will beat the rush and be ahead in the game". There is only "do this, and you might have a chance to come back from behind". | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On June 16 2011 20:57 Probe1 wrote: Land your CC next to his damn nexus and make a PF. Solved the matchup! So your solution is to fly your CC across the map before protoss can make cannons at home, wish an e-bay and 150 gas into existence, and hope that killing this nexus somehow helps your team to win the game. Sigh... there's a reason I posted here instead of the blizzard forums but it seems the difference is smaller and smaller every day. | ||
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aztecx
Australia130 Posts
On June 16 2011 21:26 Chocobo wrote: No offense, but theorycraft doesn't really help here. 13 pool is terribly late and will have nowhere near enough lings to deal with it, nor is it at all standard in 2v2. Best case scenario = you 10 pool and hold off the zerg, overlord catches the protoss starting to build immediately, teammate pulls workers to stop the pylon and probe. The rush is denied, but you're now behind in the game because the protoss lost no mining time while your teammate did. This also requires parking your overlord at the teammate's ramp, which means it's not scouting the usual locations for proxy gates or cannon rush. Best case scenario if there's no zerg on your team = your teammate is dead and you're now playing 1v2. My team has 973 points in masters league and is ranked #108 NA. I am curious what this "far sicker cheese" is that you have seen, and I suspect it was seen in platinum league. That sounds ruder than I intended, but my point is I don't feel it's appropriate to post "haven't seen replay, not familiar with the situation, but if you scout and lrn2play and repair it's ez wins, I've faced way stronger cheese". Repairing doesn't work (cannons kill SCV) and lings don't go up the ramp until cannons have broken a hole in the wall. This build is not literally unstoppable, you can either use it yourself or simply always counterattack and turn the game into 1v1. But it is uncounterable in the sense there is no "do this, you will beat the rush and be ahead in the game". There is only "do this, and you might have a chance to come back from behind". I mean if you want to compare teams, your team is 170-145 (54%). Mine is 153-42 (78%) on the SEA server, rank 2. I would suggest a game but I feel like I've got an unfair advantage knowing your Achilles heal and all (10p + cannon rush). It seems like you have a problem accepting what people suggest to you, and you have your mind set on this cannon rush being 'unstoppable'. The rank 3 team on the SEA server play TP and have some SICK cheeses. If you have trouble stopping this you will have a nightmare trying to stop theirs. It's not the same match up as what you're asking about, but I'm telling you their cheese execution is amazing and far more effective than any ZP cheese I've ever had to deal with. On most 2v2 maps, cannon rushing isn't that strong unless it is combined with a contain. Assuming that statement, your overlord positioning should be above your teams ramps in order to stop any contain before it happens. In this situation, it would also help your terran teammate out as well, and as others including me have suggested, a simcity including a bunker in the terran base will stop this cheese easily. You will lose the depot you used to wall off your ramp but the protoss will end up losing all those minerals committed to the cannon rush as well as both the opposition will be far behind economically due to cutting worker production to execute this cheese. At the end of the day, if you have a bunker in your main, who cares if the protoss builds 15 cannons at the bottom of your ramp. The longer the game goes on the stronger your teams position gets. Cheese is only strong if they can kill you or do terminal damage. I BM GG when someone tries to cannon rush any of my teams because I'm just about to score a free win. | ||
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Skillver
Austria1309 Posts
TP PP TT teams wall together and have no problems against it and if u scout it its not a problem to hold it ah and btw cannon rushing a terran never works | ||
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sahbeewah
Australia7 Posts
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Skillver
Austria1309 Posts
On June 16 2011 22:54 sahbeewah wrote: My TT team encountered this today. Happened to my partner, I couldn't assist so I let him die. The thing is, executing this rush puts you so behind the unaffected player economically and techwise. I just built up a small force of initial marines (about 10-12) and crippled the protoss who had 1 1/2 cannons up defending his choke. Then I built up a bit and then killed the zerg before I finished off the protoss with a second wave of mm. u know, terran can fly away (just adding this bcz u stated ur partner died) | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On June 16 2011 22:35 aztecx wrote: I mean if you want to compare teams, your team is 170-145 (54%). Mine is 153-42 (78%) on the SEA server, rank 2. Well, crap. Nevermind then, I apologize. I just got it in my mind that your post read like those "I don't know anything but here's my opinion anyway" gold leaguers that are all over the blizzard forums. On June 16 2011 22:35 aztecx wrote: It seems like you have a problem accepting what people suggest to you, and you have your mind set on this cannon rush being 'unstoppable'. That's really not the case... I just don't see most of these suggestions as being remotely worthwhile, after spending a silly amount of time trying to figure out this puzzle myself. When people say things like "just shoot down the pylon with marines or marauders while safely inside your base" when the cannons are building before a marine is finished, yes it's going to seem like I'm just dismissing everything. 13-pooling zerg sounds like one of those ideas I can instantly toss away. It will have real problems with early lings, or if only the teammate is attacked, it will never have as many lings as the opponent. I can't see how doing this is ever good or could be a "standard" build for 2v2 so I just had to assume you were bad. You are correct in that if I 10p and spot the pylon immediately, the cheese fails. Problem is, enemy protoss is now ahead of my teammate economically because he didn't have to lose a good chunk of mining time... so really the cheese still succeeds, just on a smaller scale. The bunker in the main idea could very well work. Terran still loses depots and probably some workers, but I can't rule out the possibility of being ahead of the ZP team if this defense is pulled off perfectly. I still think this mindlessly easy ZP build is stupidly overpowered for what it is, and still see no counter if it's used against a protoss. Maybe it's more counterable than I think, but I'm having a very hard time seeing how that could be. I'm sure your team would defeat mine even without the cheese, congrats on being one of the few teams in the world to surpass a 75% winrate without being zerg/terran. | ||
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perser84
Germany399 Posts
we held the rush with marines so few scv from my side to be honest you can scout it and if both terran make wall in they can hold it of because my mate built 2 rax and i built be coult manage to shoot down canons from the ramp and defend vs the lings well like i said we shared boh the same ramp maybe thats why we won but here are cheese are far more better then that fast dt with overlord give sight so you can warp from up | ||
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aztecx
Australia130 Posts
On June 17 2011 00:44 Chocobo wrote:That's really not the case... I just don't see most of these suggestions as being remotely worthwhile, after spending a silly amount of time trying to figure out this puzzle myself. When people say things like "just shoot down the pylon with marines or marauders while safely inside your base" when the cannons are building before a marine is finished, yes it's going to seem like I'm just dismissing everything. 13-pooling zerg sounds like one of those ideas I can instantly toss away. It will have real problems with early lings, or if only the teammate is attacked, it will never have as many lings as the opponent. I can't see how doing this is ever good or could be a "standard" build for 2v2 so I just had to assume you were bad. You are correct in that if I 10p and spot the pylon immediately, the cheese fails. Problem is, enemy protoss is now ahead of my teammate economically because he didn't have to lose a good chunk of mining time... so really the cheese still succeeds, just on a smaller scale. The bunker in the main idea could very well work. Terran still loses depots and probably some workers, but I can't rule out the possibility of being ahead of the ZP team if this defense is pulled off perfectly. I still think this mindlessly easy ZP build is stupidly overpowered for what it is, and still see no counter if it's used against a protoss. Maybe it's more counterable than I think, but I'm having a very hard time seeing how that could be. I'm sure your team would defeat mine even without the cheese, congrats on being one of the few teams in the world to surpass a 75% winrate without being zerg/terran. I open 13p the majority of the time since it offers far more versatility than 10p and is much safer than 14p. If the opposing zerg opens 10p, you have lings out in time to protect yourself and your teammate from the early pressure. Going 14p will result in your lings coming out late. As well as this, 13 drones gives you enough saturation for constant ling production after every inject if need be, as well as the 3 extra drones which can mine gas or minerals. I could go on about the pros and cons of different buildorders all night, but in my opinion 13p seems to be the best all-round opening. I think you might be looking at the situation incorrectly. The pylon does not need to be stopped, nor does the cannon need to be destroyed. The second the pylon is scouted, make it your goal to drop a bunker strategically placed in your main to stop any sort of ling harass because that is really the only thing that can kill you at this stage. Since the 10p zerg has no banelings, once you have a bunker up with 1-2 marines in it there is almost nothing the zerg can do. I think the biggest issue here is buying the terran time to get the first marine out into the bunker. Using your first 6 lings out you should just keep the enemy lings occupied whilst throwing down a spine in your own main. During this time your terran should have the bunker and marine in production, and then focus on repositioning his barracks and creating a simcity. The cannons don't complete till a bit later I think so all this should work out fine. If you think about each players approximate worker count at this point in the game: Your team: Zerg - 13 Terran - 15 Enemy team: Zerg - 10 Protoss - 12 At this stage, barely any damage has been done. If executed correctly you should have lost at most 1 depot and a few lings. The enemy zerg is stuck on 10 drones, whilst the enemy protoss has 12 probes with no tech whatsoever. From this point on I think the terran should go marine/tank and turtle. The zerg can choose to either ling/bling or roach and take standard 10p precautions (IE. not leaving protection of hatchery with small amount of roaches in case they get surrounded by lings). The longer the game goes on the further behind the enemy team gets and simply destroying the cannon blockade with tanks and then pushing should win the game. I probably should have stated that I can't watch the replay atm because I'm in the middle of exams, but I'll watch it later. This is all obviously theorycrafting and nothing ever works out this perfectly, but I hope I may have shed a little light on just how a situation such as this can be dealt with in an efficient manner. Whilst there are certainly small differences in the execution of their build, I still feel that this is simply just a cannon rush that can't actually kill you, but can contain you. I never actually noticed that there were so few ZP teams with high win-rates. My partner and I have a really weird play style though, we rarely cheese. I guess that's why defending something like this seems so trivial to me and I can think of a lot of other builds that I'd rather not see over this. | ||
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