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From my own experiences:
1. Download as many replays as you can get of the same "pro" level player in a specific matchup. + Show Spoiler + (I downloaded all of Thorzain's recent MLG TvP replays.)
2. Find all of the replays where your Pro player does the same opening and organize them accordingly.+ Show Spoiler + (All of thorzain's games on Typhon Peaks he did the marine/tank/banshee opening) Last game he got 3 banshee's but this game he only got 1 banshee and then started getting vikings. Why the change? Oh ok, Toss opened phoenix so he got vikings instead of banshee. He responded within his build by doing "x" thing when he scouted "y".
3. Begin watching only the games where your Pro is doing the same opening.
a. identify a general outline of the build order. + Show Spoiler +(depot > rax > gas > OC > reactor > depot > factory > etc. The exact number of supply when the action takes place is not as important as the general ordering of things)
4. Play several games in YABOT trying to emulate the build you studied. When your build feels akward, make a note of what exactly feels akward.+ Show Spoiler + (when does he get siege mode? is it before or after the 2nd tank starts?)
5. Play several games against an AI with your build. It's different executing a build knowing something else is on the map capable of killing you. Identify and correlate timings to future actions to help you stay on track with your build. + Show Spoiler + (right after I drop my first mule I will have enough minerals/gas to start my factory. As soon as my 1st pair of marines pops out I need to start my 3rd depot)
6. Begin playing some custom games with friends. Try to play the same build vs same build on the same map several games at a time. I try to focus on the timings of common Protoss 1 base pressure builds and how to respond them within my build. + Show Spoiler + (If I haven't been able to rule out DT's, I need a turret up by 7:15. 3 gate pressure I need a couple of bunkers up around 7:30 etc)
7. When you feel comfortable responding and adapting within your build to common strategies against a live opponent you should be able to play comfortably on ladder and begin measuring your understanding and execution of the build in terms of wins and losses.
8. I repeat steps 1-7 for every mu-specific build I want to learn.
This is what I have done and what works best for me. Good luck.
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On June 11 2011 13:36 Kornholi0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 12:46 imjorman wrote:On June 11 2011 12:39 Kornholi0 wrote:
Generally instead of asking others to find the builds for you, you should be watching the pros play and see what gets you excited, most builds people post are builds they have a wonderful time doing and win a lot with, like when I played terran I won a lot of games where I 2raxed (never bunker rushed cause I was a real man), but my other terran friend was all about the fast expands into mass bio (against zerg it was unheard of lol). Basically what might be right for you may not be right for some, look for what gets you excited to play a match up and then ask how they did it. Or do your own research, that is how you will grow the most as a player.
Yes I can take my own advice (ZvZ coinflip thread <--) the difference is that I am not looking for a 1-hit wonder build order, I want to know how to avoid or at least use my builds for my good in the ZvZ match up...
This is completely different, terrans who find they are 1-trick ponies lose interest fast, if no other builds are working I would suggest changing races for awhile (so you can lose a bunch get lower on the ladder then go back to terran and learn a different build against less then optimal opponents compared to your standards)
Also just winging a build (with good timings etc etc) can help you win games if its solid but unorthodox enough. I feel like there was a misunderstanding here. I'm NOT looking for the one trick pony build. my thread is based around the fact that I want to get AWAY from that kind of thing. That's how I got to plat, and I want to branch out and actually become a good player. In addition, I'm not looking for people to find builds for me, I'm petitioning to people how they break away from builds their comfortable with and get better. This is a "help me get better thread" (IMO the point of the strategy forums in a lot of cases) rather than a "LOL BE GOOGLE FOR ME" thread. I know you are not looking for a 1-trick pony build, what I am saying is that before you come here saying that you are stuck on a 1-trick pony build, you should at least discover what type of playstyle you enjoy and that makes you jizz your pants when you see it done professionally, and then once you find that playstyle, then you can ask how to shape and form the meta-game builds to fit your playstyle. We can't tell you what you like, you gotta figure that out for yourself. Asking for help you'll just get people's responses where they tell you their own 1-trick pony builds and then you'll have 3-4 1-trick pony builds.
OK fair enough point. I think I understand what your saying :D:D I enjoy watching ghost play in TvP. I find it fascinating, impressive, and fun to watch. Against zerg, I really like watching people go with the standard tank, marine, thor play. And against terran, standard play works for me (tank/viking).
So to further continue this exercise. I guess I need for vT a 1/1/1 build. I can find that simply enough. I'm not sure how to begin implementing ghosts into my play vP. Like I guess I could open with the standard 2 rax I've been doing then just drop a ghost factory. idk I'll have to play with it. As far as vZ is concerned, I've been given the hellion expand opening that should get me going with some tank marine play.
And of course, I can always fall back on my 2 rax MMM play if I need a break from learning new stuff. Am I understanding you correctly?
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Do cool stuff and take losses if it doesn't work. Learn like a man. Make a rule to yourself, "I'm not going to open this way anymore. I'm going to..." helion harass? turtle? fast expand? just try some different stuff... and dont be mad when you get demoted on the ladder. it will hurt, but you will eventually get it back.
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On June 11 2011 13:50 Joedaddy wrote:From my own experiences: 1. Download as many replays as you can get of the same "pro" level player in a specific matchup. + Show Spoiler + (I downloaded all of Thorzain's recent MLG TvP replays.) Find all of the replays where your Pro player does the same opening and organize them accordingly. + Show Spoiler + (All of thorzain's games on Typhon Peaks he did the marine/tank/banshee opening) Begin watching only the games where your Pro is doing the same opening. a. identify a general outline of the build order. + Show Spoiler +(depot > rax > gas > OC > reactor > depot > factory > etc. The exact number of supply when the action takes place is not as important as the general ordering of things) Play several games in YABOT trying to emulate the build you studied. When your build feels akward, make a note of what exactly feels akward. + Show Spoiler + (when does he get siege mode? is it before or after the 2nd tank starts?) Go back and compare your notes to the Pro's replay again. Then go back and practice it some more continuing the comparison exercise until you can execute the build to your satisfaction. 5. Play several games against an AI with your build. It's different executing a build knowing something else is on the map capable of killing you. Identify and correlate timings to future actions to help you stay on track with your build. + Show Spoiler + (right after I drop my first mule I will have enough minerals/gas to start my factory. As soon as my 1st pair of marines pops out I need to start my 3rd depot) When you can execute well vs the AI move on. 6. Begin playing some custom games with friends. Try to play the same build vs same build on the same map several games at a time. I try to focus on the timings of common Protoss 1 base pressure builds and how to respond them within my build. + Show Spoiler + (If I haven't been able to rule out DT's, I need a turret up by 7:15. 3 gate pressure I need a couple of bunkers up around 7:30 etc)
When you feel comfortable responding and adapting within your build to common strategies against a live opponent you should be able to play comfortably on ladder and begin measuring your understanding and execution of the build in terms of wins and losses. 8. I repeat steps 1-7 for every mu-specific build you want to learn. This is what I have done and what works best for me. Good luck.
Some great advice. Thanks man!
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I think it's important to know that even if you are so stuck into the 2 rax stim mindset and opener, you don't have to break away from that completely. It's obviously a bio opening but if you don't want to go straight up bio vs Zerg, just transition after your expand into more mech play or drops or banshees or whatever it is you want to experiment with.
As many others have said, watching pros is always great to do and will help you perfect transitions and openings. But there's no reason to ditch what you know and what is working for you right away. Just tweak it to your liking. Once your opening secures your expansion you can do whatever you want with your money.
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@OP You don't have to change!!
If you eliminate one of those M's from each matchup you can have some solid strategies. Like no marauders in TvZ but being really proactive and constant dropping. Take out the marine in TvP and you can kite/drop your way to victory. TvT you'll just have to keep mixing it up compared to your opponents tank/marine count. 1-trick pony builds just need to be painted a different color.
The only thing that changes is that you can't just A-move.
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On June 11 2011 13:54 imjorman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 13:36 Kornholi0 wrote:On June 11 2011 12:46 imjorman wrote:On June 11 2011 12:39 Kornholi0 wrote:
Generally instead of asking others to find the builds for you, you should be watching the pros play and see what gets you excited, most builds people post are builds they have a wonderful time doing and win a lot with, like when I played terran I won a lot of games where I 2raxed (never bunker rushed cause I was a real man), but my other terran friend was all about the fast expands into mass bio (against zerg it was unheard of lol). Basically what might be right for you may not be right for some, look for what gets you excited to play a match up and then ask how they did it. Or do your own research, that is how you will grow the most as a player.
Yes I can take my own advice (ZvZ coinflip thread <--) the difference is that I am not looking for a 1-hit wonder build order, I want to know how to avoid or at least use my builds for my good in the ZvZ match up...
This is completely different, terrans who find they are 1-trick ponies lose interest fast, if no other builds are working I would suggest changing races for awhile (so you can lose a bunch get lower on the ladder then go back to terran and learn a different build against less then optimal opponents compared to your standards)
Also just winging a build (with good timings etc etc) can help you win games if its solid but unorthodox enough. I feel like there was a misunderstanding here. I'm NOT looking for the one trick pony build. my thread is based around the fact that I want to get AWAY from that kind of thing. That's how I got to plat, and I want to branch out and actually become a good player. In addition, I'm not looking for people to find builds for me, I'm petitioning to people how they break away from builds their comfortable with and get better. This is a "help me get better thread" (IMO the point of the strategy forums in a lot of cases) rather than a "LOL BE GOOGLE FOR ME" thread. I know you are not looking for a 1-trick pony build, what I am saying is that before you come here saying that you are stuck on a 1-trick pony build, you should at least discover what type of playstyle you enjoy and that makes you jizz your pants when you see it done professionally, and then once you find that playstyle, then you can ask how to shape and form the meta-game builds to fit your playstyle. We can't tell you what you like, you gotta figure that out for yourself. Asking for help you'll just get people's responses where they tell you their own 1-trick pony builds and then you'll have 3-4 1-trick pony builds. OK fair enough point. I think I understand what your saying :D:D I enjoy watching ghost play in TvP. I find it fascinating, impressive, and fun to watch. Against zerg, I really like watching people go with the standard tank, marine, thor play. And against terran, standard play works for me (tank/viking). So to further continue this exercise. I guess I need for vT a 1/1/1 build. I can find that simply enough. I'm not sure how to begin implementing ghosts into my play vP. Like I guess I could open with the standard 2 rax I've been doing then just drop a ghost factory. idk I'll have to play with it. As far as vZ is concerned, I've been given the hellion expand opening that should get me going with some tank marine play. And of course, I can always fall back on my 2 rax MMM play if I need a break from learning new stuff. Am I understanding you correctly?
Pretty much yes. If you want a cool Ghost build, I believe there was some posts earlier if you just search it. Thorzain does amazing TvP Ghosts, you should check out his builds.
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On June 11 2011 11:53 imjorman wrote:Hey all, I'm imjorman a platinum terran player, and I have a problem. I started off playing SC2 as my "main squeeze" in December (bought it on release, but only because of hype and I love midnight releases lol) and qualified at 100 - bronze (oh yeah, that good  ). Ever since, I knew I was meant to play starcraft. This community is spectacular and this is THE game to play. Well I've developed my skills a bit to get to the level I am at now, but here's my main problem: I've only learned to do Trump's 2 rax/stime/expand. I used it in all three match ups simply relying on being able to out produce my opponent in the later stages of the game. Here's my problem: this is all I know how to do. I can still regularly beat my upper platinum opponents, but I can't get much further than that. So my question is, "What can I do to further develop my game beyond being that guy who MMM's his way in all match-ups?" As you can imagine, MMM against zerg kinda sucks now with infestors being good and banelings being a solid unit (not complaining against balance, more complimenting them). MMM is hard countered by siege tanks, and is fine against protoss. Honestly, I (think) I just need to learn tactics for two other races but I've dug myself into this place where I cannot seem to break away from my habits of 2 raxing all day everyday. Any tips? I feel like I could be a solid player with just breaking this nasty habit I've found myself developing. I can throw up some replays if that would help anyone. Thanks so much Liquid! edit: typo
Well for one you need to find a style/ opening that feels good to you. You can go gassless 1 rax fe or you can go blue flame/ banshee. It all depends on what you like the best. Most terran vs terran end up as seige tank marine right now so with whatever build you do decide to open with remember to try and converge back to that. Good luck
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my advice is try different production building combonations.
u could get 1 rax with reactor making marines, 1 factory making tanks and 1 starport making medivacs, ravens or banshee. expand when safe
u could get 3-4 rax at the start, push out and expand behind it,
u could try 1 rax fast expanding
I feel it is good to try to figure out your own strategies to help you learn what works and what doesnt. Then you can go find a replay of a player that you think has a really cool build and work see the differances between your play and adjust what you know to match that player
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On June 11 2011 14:49 Ponyo wrote:
@OP You don't have to change!!
If you eliminate one of those M's from each matchup you can have some solid strategies. Like no marauders in TvZ but being really proactive and constant dropping. Take out the marine in TvP and you can kite/drop your way to victory. TvT you'll just have to keep mixing it up compared to your opponents tank/marine count. 1-trick pony builds just need to be painted a different color.
The only thing that changes is that you can't just A-move.
I agree with you in theory but not in your examples, you can play MMM vs all races but have to make some adjustments. This is also good because it focuses you on studying the depth of the one build not studying all the different builds that are out there.
I try to play marine marauder vs all matchups (platinum on SEA), starting with 4 rax on 1 base then aiming to get 3/3 upgrades and expanding and all that good stuff.
So when it comes to what to change:
TvT I feel i have to get a few tanks, but since the factory is there to get upgrades higher than 1/1 and starports its not out of the way, usually after both players are on 2 bases if 1 terran isn't going 100% tank viking the other plays has room to invest in other units.
TvZ
I've found MMM to work until broods are out, and then since you are already making medevacs just throw in the right amount of vikings. I had some trouble vs a friend who would use the spanishiwa build but then a 1 base MM push heavy in marauders seems to do well (as spines and queens dont do so well vs rauders, and without a good surround lings don't don't either)
TvP
I find at my level protoss have a hard time dealing with an aggressive MM ball off 1 base. Get a slight advantage (forcing him to cancel and expo or winning a big battle), keep colossus numbers <3 with constant aggression and it's an easy win.
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I don't know, maybe you should try some other builds? Seriously posts like this don't belong in strategy forum...
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i would definitly suggest watching day(9) dailys, they are very good and helped me alot
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Isn't trumps build 3 rax anyway...
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On June 11 2011 17:29 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
I don't know, maybe you should try some other builds? Seriously posts like this don't belong in strategy forum...
I would disagree. This post is about finding strategies and implementing them despite being somewhat proficient at other strategies. So this has everything to do with strategy.
Anyway, I'll be looking up some Thorzain TvP for ghost play. I think the best thing is gonna be honestly just grinding out practice games by myself on ladder - as previously stated.
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Im a diamond zerg and my least favorite thing to play against is banshee openings they are so strong!!! Go watch happy he does these very well.
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I think you should look for Happy´s replays and the episode with Day9.
Btw Happy has something like 80 % win chance.
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On June 12 2011 02:13 Sockpuppet wrote:
Im a diamond zerg and my least favorite thing to play against is banshee openings they are so strong!!! Go watch happy he does these very well.
Banshee openings are pitiful against a half intellegent zerg, not only do 99% of zergs get more than one queen, its not uncommon to get an evo chamber for upgrades about the same time cloak finishes. Plus if you scouted at all you would know that banshees were coming, I don't know how many times I've just failed to scout banshees and still been fine because of my build auto killing banshees.
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On June 12 2011 00:13 imjorman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 17:29 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
I don't know, maybe you should try some other builds? Seriously posts like this don't belong in strategy forum... I would disagree. This post is about finding strategies and implementing them despite being somewhat proficient at other strategies. So this has everything to do with strategy. Anyway, I'll be looking up some Thorzain TvP for ghost play. I think the best thing is gonna be honestly just grinding out practice games by myself on ladder - as previously stated.
TSL finals check those out, and check out the day9dialy about ghost usage and including them in your gameplay.
If you want a word of advice on how to use them, use them like zergs use infestors before the patch, send them to delay their push until more reinforcements arrive, (a good protoss won't get emped and attack right away when their shields are all down). If he attacks without your reinforcements you'll win because his shields are down, if he waits your reinforcements should arrive and you can emp and win that way.
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Now that you have gotten so comfortable with this 2 rax build into mmm you should start to deviate in the different MU's.
vZ- I would do 10 depod, 12 rax, 15 oc, 15 marine, 16 depot, 16 gas, 16 rax, 17 marine, 18 scv, 19 2nd gas, 24 fact (as soon as you have 100g you should have 150 minerals), 24 depot, push out at 27 supply (4:40) with 5 marines to clear watch towers and hunt for some ovies. after marine 6/7 pop out get reactor and tech on each rax, fact finishes, get tech on that, upgrade stim and siege immediately, start producing tank when you get your next 125 gas. start a cc w/ next 400 minerals (you might have to cut a prod cycle of marines, DON'T CUT SCVS... EVER). Constant tank production along with marine production should get you approx 19m- the ones you lose in your first little push and 3 tanks. use the 3 tanks and marines to force the opponent to stop drone production and if he was too greedy then you can kill him. Right when you push out, you should secure your expo (potentially with a bunker or 2) and don't rally your units to your pushing army. You will die to backstabs if you rally everything to the front line. After this I generally get a second fact and another reactor rax and a starport.
vP- 12 rax, 14g, 15oc, another rax. get a tech lab on the first rax and get conc shell + 1 reaper. Then start producing marauder/marine while getting your expo up. I generally then go into early ups with 2 tech lab rax and 1 reactor rax as my skeleton. From here you will generally get medivacs and potentially early vikings if you see your opponent doing colossi play (Some games you get the vikings before the medivacs). The important part of this build is to scout/harass a lil with the reaper and then push with like 2-3 marauders and 5 or so marines. Making the protoss stay passive while you expand.
vT- I don't play TvT that much. T is my offrace so I tend to play the mu's that I enjoy/help me. sry I can't be of more help w/ TvT.
To be honest. You can get to masters using mmm. You can get to diamond by fair macro. I would advise using drops a lot if you have the apm for it. and also to push out and shark around to prevent the opponent from being too greedy. Look up replays and see when terran players get aggressive and try to stabilize your play by that aggression. Gl
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Honestly there's nothing wrong with wrong with your build. MMM is still very solid in all 3 matchups. But now that you're in platinum you can't simply a-move your way to victory. Are you applying early game pressure? How good are your upgrades? Are you using drops? All of these things are key to higher level play in general.
There's no need to go about reinventing the wheel. Try changing one or two small things in your build each game, and soon enough you'll be familiar with a wide variety of builds.
This is the progression I took:
1 Rax FE
2 Rax FE
2 Rax 3 Bunker rush
2 Rax Concussive shell expand
3 Rax Stim
5 Rax Reaper rush
6 Rax Mega Marine
1-1 Seige expand
2-1 Proxy Thor rush
1-2 Blueflame expand
1-1-1 Hellion drop
1-1-2 Cheesy Cloakshee
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EPT
