Hi guys Im a 1100 point masters terran and Im sure youve heard of a GSL player who goes by the name oGsNaDa. Recently vs Virus he used a gas first build that went for a fast banshee into a hellion tank midgame. This was extremely effective and ive been using this build pretty much exclusively on ladder with great success from the outset (it didnt take much practice at all before it started yielding results).
Hellion openings into hellion siege tank viking builds are extremely strong currently. The harass and counter attack potential of hellions and the speed with which they kill marines when you catch the tanks unsieged is insane. Its a really fun style where you are constantly doing stuff with your army and playing ecomically as well.
early BO
1. 10 depot (use the scv to scout when its done) 2. 12 refinery (when you have you have enough minerals when your 11th worker is queued) 3. 13 rax 4. 16 factory (BEFORE YOUR ORBITAL) 5. 16 orbital (before the marine) - theres a gap between the factory and starting the orbital cause you dont have enough money but this is ok. 6. 17 marine 7. 17 depot 8. when fact is done -> starport -> tech lab on factory -> 3rd depot 9. switch when the starport is done and start a banshee 10. Cut marines (but not scvs) so you can get a CC when the banshee is building at around 5:30. 11. 4th depot second gas and resume marine production. 12. When banshee finishes switch the factory and starport again and start blue flame and hellion production. At this point if you are unsure if he is going banshee start a viking from the starport. 13. when you have 150 gas build a second factory next to the rax and start a reactor on the rax - switch them when they are done. 14. medivac from the starport (reactor on the starport once this finishes then pump vikings) 15. drop 4 blue hellions. 16. Put your cc at your natural and immediately take all the gas and when you have enough gas get 2 more tech lab factories and go from there with your composition.
This is of course completely not set in stone but it is a fairly optimal way of doing it.
Once you get your macro rolling you can take a 3rd very quickly (its a gas intensive build so alot of spare minerals) start getting mech upgrades.
Using the hellions:
If you keep up your hellion production throughout the game you will have huge amounts of blue flame hellions at your disposable. Because of the excess minerals you get with this build these are almost completely disposable units that you should use to do as much economic dmg as possible THROUGHOUT the game. You can mix in a few medivacs into your viking production to continue dropping them or you can just use their superior speed to run around armies and ninja them into mineral lines. They are great at taking watch towers so as long as your opponent hasnt got alot of his army at one of them you should ALWAYS have all of them. This way when you see your opponent moving out you can run 10+ hellions into his natural and main or whatever and slaughter his scvs. Once he gets wise to this he will have to significantly weaken his army to protect his mineral lines so its a win win situation.
In engagements hellions serve 3 purposes: to melt marines, to absorb marauder fire (marauders actually do pretty weak dmg to hellions but they take almost no dmg in return ofc) and to absorb tank volleys. The nice thing is that this actually takes very little micro. When a moved they will perform these roles very well. It is in the scv killing that hellion micro will go a long way. If your opponent has a high marine count and you have the watchtowers (which you should) then you will have many opportunities to catch him unsieged and completely destroy a large number of marines and escape with alot of hellions (you need about 10 hellions to do this).
Weaknesses:
This build will just die to a 2 rax pressure build if you didnt scout and build a bunker.
Reactor hellions is hard for this build as well. If you suspect it make a wall with 2 depots and a bunker ASAP.
If they go for sky terran and get air superiority, you need thors, but once he gets bcs you just cant kill them with thors. At this point you need to turtle and spam missile turrets around your base and army. Hellions are what will save you here cause you can abuse their speed to put the bcs out of position. You need to throw down as many starports as you can and make huge numbers of vikings to combat this but hellions should keep him in his base for long enough for you to start your viking production properly.
I've noticed a heavier lean to mech-ish style in the GSL lately and NaDa of course does it very well.
I don't really like to use the argument from authority but several good terrans (NaDa, MMA i think maybe MVP and some of the newish guys like Keen) have used this build as more than a suprise build so you can be sure that this build is very solid.
This is basically a mech build and I would love to see it work. Please check the recent game between MMA and Ryung on Crossfire, Ryung went for mass Tank /Hellion, but got crushed by Tank / Marauder. Can you give some advice which addresses Ryung's issues in this game? Also please give some selling points to go for Hellions instead of Marine support. Thanks
yeah, i saw the same NaDa game and tried this too, its pretty sweet but on the bigger maps it leaves you really vulnerable to mass marine if your opponent can scout you before you scout him. otherwise its awesome
On June 11 2011 19:58 puissance wrote: This is basically a mech build and I would love to see it work. Please check the recent game between MMA and Ryung on Crossfire, Ryung went for mass Tank /Hellion, but got crushed by Tank / Marauder. Can you give some advice which addresses Ryung's issues in this game? Also please give some selling points to go for Hellions instead of Marine support. Thanks
With my experience against heavy marauder play you have to super careful with your tank positioning. If this means turtling up and only really attacking with hellions then so be it. Ive had games where I never even needed to actually deal the killing attack because his economy was so badly damaged. A major advantage of a high tank count is that you can spare multiple tanks for each base to defend drops etc. This coupled with sensor towers leaves you in a very strong defensive position. For this reason ninja expands are a bad idea cause you have no way to kill marauders that attack them. But if you spot him ninja expanding its extremely easy for you to punish.
If it does go to the late game and you are on an equal economic footing with your opponent (somehow ) then i would start leaning toward more of a thor hellion emphasis and sacrifice a few tanks for this against marauders. Marauders only do 10 dmg to hellions so they take 9 marauder shots to do if you have equal ups. So, if you have enough hellions then your thors have time to use their very high dps and your tanks have a chance to siege if they werent already. But It wouldnt be wise to make this engagement in the first place. Just let the hellions do the damage.
Running hellions in to counter attack mineral lines will only work for so long. People will start walling in with depots eventually or depots in combination with other structures.
Otherwise, cool strategy. Been seeing this starting to get used a lot since MLG and some before that.
In the GSL, everyone seems to be going gas first in TvT, and nearly considering all trends have come from the GSL, it looks like we might have another.
Only time will tell whether this is better than Bio
On June 11 2011 21:31 Selkie wrote: As you mentioned, sky terran gives this trouble, so I'd assume that flat out and out Iechoic would give this LOTS of trouble?
Otherwise, I might try it out =)
actually iechoic gives this almost no trouble at all because its hellions and tanks vs just hellions on the ground and you will clean up. If you turtle well enough with turrets and 2 starport viking then your hellions should have no trouble vs his with tank support. Once his hellions die then you just walk into his base and kill all the scvs. This has happened multiple times for me on ladder.
I'm quite surprised at this: you have almost nothing to defend against a hellion drop (your viking comes a little bit late and you only have one marine and perhaps a hellion, he'll have blue flame and you won't), so how do you do against the opening?
Against the composition itself, I'd say the Echoic-ing player doesn't actually need to engage you: as you don't have anti-air, he can run his banshees to kill some of your troops. If you get vikings... theorycrafting it becomes tricky. He has the infrastructure to out-viking you, and banshees cost less gas than tanks, so if he is good enough not to over-produce vikings he should be able to threaten you with enough banshees. Of course positioning also matters a lot should a fight occur with such compositions.
Seems you get a faster expand though, which means faster 3rd and 4th gas if done correctly, the limiting ressource here. But you don't tell when you get your 2nd one in the OP, is it at the same time as your natural's geysers?
On June 11 2011 22:24 Alaric wrote: Seems you get a faster expand though, which means faster 3rd and 4th gas if done correctly, the limiting ressource here. But you don't tell when you get your 2nd one in the OP, is it at the same time as your natural's geysers?
I did say you need to get the second geyser directly after the expo goes down at around 30 supply.
Against the iechoic build you actually get a huge advantage early on because your expo is so much earlier and you have the necessary tools to kill him with harass and defend his. If it goes to the mid game then turrets are you friend. He cant kill stuff with banshees when there are turrets everywhere and a thor viking mix will deal with the banshees very well when you need to engage.
Ah, yes, it's your 11., I didn't see it. Though you don't really answer my interrogations: what are your tools to "kill him with harass and defend his"?
I'm going to assume these: - you scout/guess the build and build a bunker (a smart Echoic player will poke with the first hellion and know he can straight up walk into your base with 3-4 of them even before his medivac if he sees no bunker and tech) - your super fast banshee should arrive a bit faster than the standard time, due to fac before OC, I guess? - Seeing no pressure the Echoic player will cut hellions to get faster starports, meaning his BF drop will probably be at least on the way when your banshee gets in his base. Those kind of trades usually favor the hellions as they kill scvs faster than a banshee, which can be slowed by running around. How many marines do you usually have by now to deal with the drop?
At this point, both of you should have a CC completed/on the way, a medivac&viking (medivac on the way for you if you got a viking upon scouting his build), 2 fac, a banshee, and a handful of hellions. It's possible that your banshee was killed, same with his medivac, by the viking, and your CC is substantially earlier than his. He may or may not have made up for it with more scv kills.
Pros: - with good simcity you can reduce your losses, while he'll have to wait a while because of your banshee - if you can force a raven before he scouts your lack of cloak, you'll have quite a gas advantage - your expo is earlier - you have the infrastructure to produce 3x hellions, allowing you to make up for the fact that he started his production and 2nd fac earlier than you - Early midgame Echoic relies on a good balance in the mixing of units. I can get a rather fast reactor on a factory usually, but if vikings have to be made he may want it on his starport instead. Your build will make his decision-making harder and keep him on his toes with scouting.
Cons: - He has 2 starports to your only one, securing air control - He has an earlier BF and hellion count, which should be enough to deter your own drop along with his viking - without good simcity you'll likely end up behind economically (for the moment) because hellions kill SCVs faster than your banshee
I guess the important points are the timing for his starports, if you prompted a raven from him, and the relative SCV losses. If they didn't go well for him, he'll have to outplay you to get an advantage while you'll only have to play safe. Could you provide a replay against Echoic 2fac/2ports, or at least your number of marines by the time he hits?
I feel like even though your build isn't Echoic-proof like you seem to say, it does indeed get an advantage other it.
On an unrelated note, you say to get 2 more tech lab factories after the natural and its gases are taken. Doesn't that make it 3 tech-lab factories and a reactor'd one? You can't sustain triple tanks + viking production on 2 bases worth of gas. Is it that you usually plan on getting a fast 3rd?
Every build is Echoic-proof as long as you have 3 orbital and 5, 6 Thors.
Anyway I've played against this strat before, and I countered it relatively easy by going BF hellions, marauders, viking and medivac. The weakness of this strat if as long as you have air superior (which is very easy since you don't have to spend gas on tanks)and do a double marauders drop (or marauder hellion) in the main, it's verry hard for him to deny it. Hellions can't win against marauder + hellion, and reinforced tanks can be easily taken out with a scan and stimmed marauders. You can drop on top of the tanks too.
I didn't understaand a thing, i watch the replays, but what i can't figure in your strategy is the main purpose of hellions.
You say: -Harrass -Tanking the damage of tanks and marauders/ melt marine (in short words, combat use)
But what's the main of 2? Do you win because you harrass good and using the hellions in combat gives the final shot? So if you don't harrass good you must switch? or the contrary?
I'm pretty convinced that this sort of build will become the future of TvT. Hellions are incredibly cheap, fast, and strong, almost to the point of being overpowered. In large numbers, hellions will actually start killing marauders cost effectively, because of the huge amount of splash damage they deal when the marauders clump up in a ball.
Not to mention tanks & thors kick ass as well in this matchup, but I think the hellions are really what makes builds like this do so well.
Yeah i've been abusing on the ladder alot of Marine Hellion. Hellions roast Marines and Marines kill siege tanks. It makes it really easy to hold of 1/1/1 pushes off of an FE. Then i ussually transition into a Mech Composition.
Faced it for the first time tonight against Sterling. Ass fuck that's dirty. The blue flame hellions make the terran going marine tank SO far behind early game until you get enough to stim + spread and upgrade well.
The fact the fuckers can be everywhere is a real issue for TvT future.
I plan to adapt and start using this 100% That and my dual medic drop + 4 viking harass is the only hope for my TvT.
Very good write up, glad to see it down on hard paper, so to speak.
On June 12 2011 14:33 micjmac wrote: Is the banshee opener really necessary? Why not cut to the chase and just do a quicker blue flame hellion drop?
Also, you probably never see this in masters, but in the lower leagues, there is a timing window for a stim push. Can this build hold against that?
The banshee is kind of a mindgame thing. It wont work if ppl start using this particular build a whole lot more but if they see the banshee after seeing gas first they will probably over react with turrets. Even if they dont and your banshee does minimal dmg its ok because you only got 1 and no cloak. Also, its likely that they will think that the harass is over and stop worrying about it and not prepare properly for your drop.
With regards to stim timings your banshee should be able to scout this and 1 bunker plus a banshee and a couple of hellions behind it should clear up the marines then the banshee will kill the remaining marauders.
I don't think this has already been said in this thread but it is possible to make a Factory and an Orbital Command right after the Rax finishes. Just build your Refinery at 11 food and only put 2 SCVs on it and at 15 food rally your next worker to the Refinery (then put your rally point back on minerals).
Hmm, I'm having a lot of trouble defending a tank marine push at around the 7-8 min mark with this. Marines and Hellions just aren't too good at defending it. I'm only Silver too, so my micro isn't the best...
well actually you have a banshee as well at this point and if they commit to a push and you have a banshee in the mineral line then as long as you hold the push you will win. Or you can just use the banshee to defend which is also good if you have decent micro. Of course losing this banshee early kinda screws this up. If they have vikings you should counter with the banshee in their mineral line. As soon as blue flame is done researching in the tech lab you can start siege mode. If you stall for a while then you can hold with your own tanks. Or you can just go drop the hellions in his mineral line at the same time he pushes and collect your free win
In the particular match I'm talking about, my pathetic micro lost me my banshee, and I just got owned. However, I've refined the build alot since then, and I think I could hold it now :D
Wow thanks for sharing this, I was trying this kind of army composition out on ladder but it didn't quite work cause i didn't know what opening to do, but this opening is genius! again thanks
Thank you to the OP! This strategy has really upped my game and I'm using it as my main build now. I'm at that point in my development where I want to Really, really perfect one build and I think this one is great for that. The flexibility this build provides is perfect for my style.
Anyhow...
The original poster mentioned a game of oGsNada and ST_Virus, and after a lot of searching I finally found it. Here's the link if anyone is interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix894fXiCMM
Jump to 6:20 if you don't want to sit through all the intro stuff.
THis is well written and an intersting build. I like how at the end you put all the possible counters that this build just outright dies to. Because when i was reading it i could not help but think "what if the terran 2 raxs, or banshee/hellions 2fact/2port echoic builds on you.
So in the mid-late game, you would just get more facts (reactors+techs making only hellions and tanks and vikings if needed?). So bioball will not be used at all?
Late game you need another unit other than tanks hellions and vikings. It can be battle cruisers thors or MM in my experience. But this is a very late game consideration.
Players like goody and myself have been doing this for 8+ months now. I was thinking about writing a TvT mech guide before, but then I realized I enjoy having a 95%+ win ratio TvT lol :D
On June 18 2011 08:03 avilo wrote: Players like goody and myself have been doing this for 8+ months now. I was thinking about writing a TvT mech guide before, but then I realized I enjoy having a 95%+ win ratio TvT lol :D
1. When would you transition out of hellion tank vikings? (3 bases?) 2. What transition works best in standard situations (they still have marine tank vikings). 3. What upgrades should I focus on first, and if they have cloak banshee, should I get a raven? or just build some turrets and save scans when moving out.
Also if possible, can you please post some mid-late game scenarios? All of your replays end really soon by just from your harass, I want to see what happens after things stabilize.
Hey guys if you want to see a great example of this style (I don't believe this exact build) watch Jinro from yesterdays RO 16 Code A matches!
He faces asdfOu, and if it wasn't for some bad hellion control I think he really would have had the game. He uses PDD from a raven to great effect on enemy marauders! As well as throwing in banshees in the mix to pick off tanks!
To be honest gas first is very gimmicky. Yeah you get faster tech, but reaper scouting in TvT is fairly common and a gas first means you wont have anything to defend against the reaper. Not to mention any sorts of stim push.
Hellion Tank is good in TvP, just the gas first is a gimmicky play.
EDIT: This would also die to a 4 marine Hellion push.
From what I can tell by watching the GSL and from my own experiences of dealing with this on the ladder, this is a great step in the meta game for TvT (as opposed to the previously stale marine tank medivac that replaced marine tank viking), and as seen in Jinro vs asd, bio still remains viable although you'll need to begin mixing in some marauders. I personally still go bio heavy with tanks to control space, but maybe I'll start working in a reactored factory over a barracks in the future for that all too deadly hellion harass (Always making my 3rd cc a planetary now because of it )
Heres a slight variation on your build that has been very strong for me and is just better IMO.
17 depot 17 refinery
Continue on with your build but you get more gas, on your second 50energy scan the enemy base, if he has a starport cancel your banshee swap back and make a dropship and start blue flame right away. If he doesnt have a starport, start cloaking. He is almost definitely doing some sort of fast expand or maybe an all-in, either way cloaked banshees will serve you well.
After your first starport unit make a viking to defend against enemy banshees and put it off to the side of your base to try to intercept any hellion drops or at least see them coming so you can run scvs.
I think this is better because if your enemy has a viking out when your banshee arrives (aka as I will) then your banshee does basically nothing and its wasted resources.
PS gas first is not "gimmicky" reaper will never be there before you have 2 marines that can easily defend it and reaper first is a terrible opening that immediately signals infantry all in.
On July 29 2011 00:45 statikg wrote: Heres a slight variation on your build that has been very strong for me and is just better IMO.
17 depot 17 refinery
Continue on with your build but you get more gas, on your second 50energy scan the enemy base, if he has a starport cancel your banshee swap back and make a dropship and start blue flame right away. If he doesnt have a starport, start cloaking. He is almost definitely doing some sort of fast expand or maybe an all-in, either way cloaked banshees will serve you well.
After your first starport unit make a viking to defend against enemy banshees and put it off to the side of your base to try to intercept any hellion drops or at least see them coming so you can run scvs.
I think this is better because if your enemy has a viking out when your banshee arrives (aka as I will) then your banshee does basically nothing and its wasted resources.
PS gas first is not "gimmicky" reaper will never be there before you have 2 marines that can easily defend it and reaper first is a terrible opening that immediately signals infantry all in.
I was looking for a variation like this ^^. I always have trouble because I neglect cloak for my banshees, and when SP tech comes in, my banshee is quickly useless. This kind of differentiation is useful for me. Plus, if he has SP tech, he most likely will not be able to defend a BF hellion drop as well, and if he goes for banshee first (like us) the hellions will win.
I've been having success too, a well micro'd banshee is just amazing.
Also, thanks for sharing, I always had a bit of trouble at the beginning of the BO with the timing of the first factory, the OC, the depot, the marine, etc. xD
On July 02 2011 21:40 deeshoo wrote: From what I can tell by watching the GSL and from my own experiences of dealing with this on the ladder, this is a great step in the meta game for TvT (as opposed to the previously stale marine tank medivac that replaced marine tank viking), and as seen in Jinro vs asd, bio still remains viable although you'll need to begin mixing in some marauders. I personally still go bio heavy with tanks to control space, but maybe I'll start working in a reactored factory over a barracks in the future for that all too deadly hellion harass (Always making my 3rd cc a planetary now because of it )
Are you kidding? This new style of tvt, which you unfortunately pretty much has to play now is a huge dumbing down of the matchup. If anything it is MORE inclinced to stalemates now because guess what now a good player can't actually flank spread and break tank lines anymore with bio/tank. Now you have two players with stale tank lines and hellions who can't actually kill anything but scv's which means that 100% of decision making is taken out. It is not like bio harass, or other drops where you can go for units, workers, snipe tech. Now it is just, kill workers. And then both players battle it out over how can kill 99% of the other players scv's first and then slow push for 50 minutes across the map with 3 tanks, turrets and a billion vikings. The turrets which also accomplishes needing no reaction skills or apm to deal with harass because you just overmake turrets and make yourself immune to harass.
This new style is sadly the best one, and it has eliminated so much complexity and skill from the matchup.
On July 02 2011 21:40 deeshoo wrote: From what I can tell by watching the GSL and from my own experiences of dealing with this on the ladder, this is a great step in the meta game for TvT (as opposed to the previously stale marine tank medivac that replaced marine tank viking), and as seen in Jinro vs asd, bio still remains viable although you'll need to begin mixing in some marauders. I personally still go bio heavy with tanks to control space, but maybe I'll start working in a reactored factory over a barracks in the future for that all too deadly hellion harass (Always making my 3rd cc a planetary now because of it )
Are you kidding? This new style of tvt, which you unfortunately pretty much has to play now is a huge dumbing down of the matchup. If anything it is MORE inclinced to stalemates now because guess what now a good player can't actually flank spread and break tank lines anymore with bio/tank. Now you have two players with stale tank lines and hellions who can't actually kill anything but scv's which means that 100% of decision making is taken out. It is not like bio harass, or other drops where you can go for units, workers, snipe tech. Now it is just, kill workers. And then both players battle it out over how can kill 99% of the other players scv's first and then slow push for 50 minutes across the map with 3 tanks, turrets and a billion vikings. The turrets which also accomplishes needing no reaction skills or apm to deal with harass because you just overmake turrets and make yourself immune to harass.
This new style is sadly the best one, and it has eliminated so much complexity and skill from the matchup.
I don't agree at all, there is a ton of decision making to be made still, for example if you did what you are suggesting against me I would just cut vikings, make 1-2 thors and crush your tank line and you would lose instantly. TvT is still about harass/macro and if anything its even faster and more precise, better defence is also required.
Hey mate I've been using this build for quite awhile now in TvT and had a LOT of success in my diamond league. Recently I suffered one of my first real loses with this build to a thor all in rush. Do you have any tips for holding this?
I scouted it kind of late, but still managed to get two bunkers up, and pull scvs, didn't make much of a difference though.
I was thinking canceling blue flame and getting seige/tanks right away? as well as continue marine production or try get some marauders? All I can really do is theory craft so I would love to know if you've had any experience vs the thor rush and if so can you provide tips/replays. It just seems to me as a blind hard counter atm. :\
On August 21 2011 15:23 Tonem wrote: Hey mate I've been using this build for quite awhile now in TvT and had a LOT of success in my diamond league. Recently I suffered one of my first real loses with this build to a thor all in rush. Do you have any tips for holding this?
I scouted it kind of late, but still managed to get two bunkers up, and pull scvs, didn't make much of a difference though.
I was thinking canceling blue flame and getting seige/tanks right away? as well as continue marine production or try get some marauders? All I can really do is theory craft so I would love to know if you've had any experience vs the thor rush and if so can you provide tips/replays. It just seems to me as a blind hard counter atm. :\
You should be able to see this coming with your banshee. this build is nice also cause it doesnt necessitate the use of a scan when your in the dark. Its very easy to forget about scouting while microing the banshee but just remember to look back at the base to see what you actually saw. If you do see you should (as you said) cancel blue flame and go straight to seige mode. Marauders might not be a bad idea as well. The thing about that is that all you have to do is hold without loosing all your scvs and you win cause your second orbital is done.
Just remember that TvT is almost entirely execution based and that this build isnt intended to get you a big advantage its just a nice way of getting early information and pressuring at the same time as expanding. The best way to improve tvt is to improve your execution. This build is just a very nice way of allowing you to get to the midgame in a strong position to be able to use your good exectution.
Sorry i lost to a gas first sieged tank push with a viking and some marines. he sieged outside my base and my banshee isn't helping as he has a viking. How should i defend against this style?
EPT
)
) then i would start leaning toward more of a thor hellion emphasis and sacrifice a few tanks for this against marauders. Marauders only do 10 dmg to hellions so they take 9 marauder shots to do if you have equal ups. So, if you have enough hellions then your thors have time to use their very high dps and your tanks have a chance to siege if they werent already. But It wouldnt be wise to make this engagement in the first place. Just let the hellions do the damage. 
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