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I've tried search and not really found anything relevant on this topic!
So after listening to many other zergs on different builds, each player seems to have their own time to fast expo. Spanishiwa's original build was a 16 hatch, Idra prefers 15 hatch, I've seen some other players 14 hatch, etc. When I ask why a player hatches at a certain time, I don't seem to get a definitive answer. Answers include
16 hatch is more economic (my question is "why?")
15 hatch is safer (my question is "why?")
14 hatch is safer/gets a better economy later ("what?)
Sorry if I'm perhaps just being a real noob, but I'm a mid diamond level zerg, and have never really understood the benefits of each.
Thanks, and much love
CluEleSs
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My best ideas are
16 hatch is the most economic because you will have the income to support it
15/14 hatch being safer is just being able to get it down w/out blocking
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13 hatch 15 pool. Gives you ovie at 17 and constant drone production without wasted larva (with perfect macro not hard at the 2 minute mark).
The hatch pops and pool pops at the same time (if you rush the pool the pool will pop after the hatch giving time for creep to spread for spines).
This allows for a virtually non-blockable expo on maps such as Tal, Shakuras, and Shattered. You can get away with it on xel if you sneak the drone around. If they are dead set on blocking you your 2nd ovie should be over the expo anyways and you can transition into a 14g 14p or 15g 15 p.
Of course follow suite with lots of spines and queens with little zerglings made maybe 2 for scouting 4 at most.
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The later you wait the better the economy but its risky especially in ZvZ
Its not really hard to understand :O
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On June 10 2011 06:08 Coutcha wrote:
The later you wait the better the economy but its risky especially in ZvZ
Its not really hard to understand :O
But why though? Is it simply because you have more drones mining for longer or?
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15 hatch and 14 hatch are safer because you usually get your spawning pool out earlier compared to a later hatch like 16. An earlier pool means you will be able to repel early pressure or harassment sooner.
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The more drones you make before putting down the hatchery - the stronger your economy will be, because the earlier you make your drones, the better it is for your eco, as they will a have longer mining time.
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On June 10 2011 06:10 mcclurg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 06:08 Coutcha wrote:
The later you wait the better the economy but its risky especially in ZvZ
Its not really hard to understand :O But why though? Is it simply because you have more drones mining for longer or?
Jesus, just think about it. Chances are you are correct.
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I prefer the 13 hatch, but thats due to my preference for early queen play. 15 hatch is a bit more economical, but good injections and better creep spread are more valuable than the mild econ lead youd get from 14 or 15 hatch. Also, 13 hatch gives you a lead on zergs third resource, larvae.
ask yourself what your early game goals are. that question will help you know when to hatch. IMO gassless zerg should hatch as early as possible.
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On June 10 2011 06:08 Coutcha wrote:
The later you wait the better the economy but its risky especially in ZvZ
Its not really hard to understand :O
15 hatch is really the only common hatch first ZvZ opening, and many people consider it the most dangerous of the common opening. It is tricky to hold off any planned early aggression and when it turns into ling/bane micro wars your at a disadvantage because you get everything later, and have a hard time making use of your early hatch. I never hatch first ZvZ, its asking to be all-ined.
I know Machine tried it twice in a row against Losira in MLG and got owned very quickly both times. I know that doesn't say a lot about the opening but it does show how risky it can be and how quickly things can go bad if you do it.
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Could someone actually answer his questions instead of posting ton of useless/inaccurate stuff
"
16 hatch is more economic (my question is "why?")
15 hatch is safer (my question is "why?")
14 hatch is safer/gets a better economy later ("what?)
"
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16 hatch more economic - 16 drones = saturation on only minerals, you should try to have 16 drones mining minerals at every expansion
15 hatch 15pool leads to a situation where your nat and pool finish at about the same time, and you have 300 minerals, letting you either take a 3rd, make 2 queens, make 1 queen and some lings/drones.. its safe because the timings on most maps, some rush maps still beat this tho
14 hatch is stupid, if you dont see zerg pros do it (just watch what they make in the first 2 minutes every game) its probably not good. Except for spanishiwa you wont ever see a hatchery before 15 because if youre gonna pool minerals and cut drones to make a building at 14, you do a pool or gas not hatch.
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Think about it this way. To make a hatch, you have to stop making drones and save 300. Same with a pool, you gotta stop and save 200.
Now, the more drones you have, the more you mine during that period you aren't making drones. If you stop making drones for 20 seconds, clearly 16 drones will mine more than 13 or 14 drones. This equals better econ. In the early game where you are often waiting on that last 50 minerals to make everything, every mineral counts.
This is further exaggerated by the fact that you will have to stop droning for less time the more drones you have. 16 drones will get you to 300 faster than 14 drones, obviously.
Ergo, the longer you wait, the better your econ. The obvious downside to waiting longer is if you get bunkered or cannon rushed, your defenses are out later. In ZvZ, a speedling all in might overwhelm you if you wait too long. Make sense now?
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@ darkscream,awesome post, thanks, have been wondering this for a while, +1
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16 hatch is more economic early because you are building drones at all times, no idle larvae. If you want to hatch on 14 or 15 u need to save up minerals for the hatch, and while you are saving you have idle larvae. idle larvae are bad because they could be made into drones, which mine minerals, and give you more money. therefore 16 hatch is the most economical build.
15 hatch is safer because a regular protoss scout will reach you after the hatch goes down(on most maps, in my experiance at least, but im only in the upper diamond region) meaning your hatch wont get blocked.
14 hatch is safer for the same reason, and also has the added benefit of giving you creep at your nat earlier which is very useful for defending terran early pressure builds. I was not aware that it gave you more economy later, but it is probably because you get a 2nd queen and more larvae faster.
tldr; having more drones earlier is good, idle larvae is bad.
I tried to be as thorough with this explanation as possible i hope you now understand.
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On June 10 2011 06:27 zezamer wrote:
Could someone actually answer his questions instead of posting ton of useless/inaccurate stuff
"
16 hatch is more economic (my question is "why?")
15 hatch is safer (my question is "why?")
14 hatch is safer/gets a better economy later ("what?)
"
The questions were already answered in other threads, you just need to search it.
Also, if you read the posts from this thread you'll have those questions answered as well.
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16 hatch will give u more workers faster. A worker gains u 50 minerals in 1.06 min 15 hatch for safety , creep, earlier queen. And 14 hatch should be only used if enemy wants to block you. So now its up to you which one you prefer. I do 15 just because i want the hatch a little bit faster.
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On June 10 2011 06:19 HelloSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 06:10 mcclurg wrote:On June 10 2011 06:08 Coutcha wrote:
The later you wait the better the economy but its risky especially in ZvZ
Its not really hard to understand :O But why though? Is it simply because you have more drones mining for longer or? Jesus, just think about it. Chances are you are correct.
I think what hes (admittedly poorly) getting at is which is better by say, the 5 minute mark, 13 hatch with "delayed" econ, or 16 hatch with "delayed" larvae.
a larvae spawns every 15 seconds. so its a long-term difference slightly I suppose. just saying, hes not necessarily being an idiot.
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There was a theorycrafting thread where it was determined that the most economic (pure economic, assuming you make only queens and drones) build was 14 pool 14 hatch.
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On June 10 2011 06:31 darkscream wrote:
16 hatch more economic - 16 drones = saturation on only minerals, you should try to have 16 drones mining minerals at every expansion
15 hatch 15pool leads to a situation where your nat and pool finish at about the same time, and you have 300 minerals, letting you either take a 3rd, make 2 queens, make 1 queen and some lings/drones.. its safe because the timings on most maps, some rush maps still beat this tho
14 hatch is stupid, if you dont see zerg pros do it (just watch what they make in the first 2 minutes every game) its probably not good. Except for spanishiwa you wont ever see a hatchery before 15 because if youre gonna pool minerals and cut drones to make a building at 14, you do a pool or gas not hatch.
Why exactly is 14 hatch stupid?
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EPT
