Let me shortly introduce myself. I play Protoss, currently in platinum league on first spot in my division. I'm very new to SC2 (started playing 3 weeks ago) and i'm trying to advance to higher leagues and to improve.
Recently i've lost to a Zerg player on Tal'Darim Altar LE with 15 Nexus build against his speedling/baneling agression. I figured out that with better wall design i could hold it, but i couldn't find any specific guide to walling in on this map, so i turned on single player game and started to build and destroy walls over and over again untill i've made best wall i could think of in every spawning location.
The hardest part in every wall is the first pylon. Without exact placement you won't be able to build best possible wall.
Characteristics:
* 1 Zealot can block it * Immortals can get through * Not only you can put pylon behind zealot, but also a Cyber Core (which you can cancel, but it's much better choice for tanking banelings than pylon) * 2 cannons are powered by 2 pylons both (you can add more if you see enemy trying hard) * Weakest spot of this wall is a Forge * You need only 3 buildings to make it (not counting pylons and cannons)
Step 1: Place first pylon. You need to find some point of reference. I'm looking at the energy circle near the corner of ramp while placing it. You need to place pylon exactly in the right spot, so it might require some practice.
Step 4: Place your core, your point of reference should be the Gateway here. If you have free space between core and the cliff you have done something wrong (you can also place cannon before the core) Image: + Show Spoiler +
Step 5: Put down your cannons and block the gap with zealot on hold position. I'm using 2 cannons, but it's up to you, just remember about the positioning.
Step 6: Add 1 more pylon to power both cannons from as far as possible to make sure your cannons are going to be safe against some roaches sniping the first pylon. After this your wall should look like this:
Images of complete wall in all 4 positions on the map: + Show Spoiler +
I hope no smart Protoss will ever again die to cheesing zerg on this map gl hf.
Full wall off is much more safer vs roach/banespeedlings allin, when u are walled with zealot, roaches can just kill zealot and run by cannons and u can do nothing about it. Hardly ever u have critical amount of sentries.
Hmm, your wall in is really far forward and it builds outwards, your cannons have to be placed really far forward because they need to cover much more surface area leaving you vulnerable to roach all-ins that just snipe the cannons.
I don't really pay attention to the wall-in myself, I tend to just wing it and it turns out fine every time. IMO, you should consider have the wall further back so your Cannons can be placed further back and in case they do manage to breach the wall, your Cannons can cover the Nexus too
EDIT:
Watch that game of xiaOt vs Idra to get a good idea of a wall that doesn't extend it self too far forward, also a great game to watch if you want to see IdrA get completely outplayed by xiaOt defending his Roach/Ling all-in. The wall xiaOt does can be modded easily such that there is a single hole for a Zealot if you want
On June 02 2011 20:57 LynxLynx wrote: Full wall off is much more safer vs roach/banespeedlings allin, when u are walled with zealot, roaches can just kill zealot and run by cannons and u can do nothing about it. Hardly ever u have critical amount of sentries.
You put Core/Gate or pylon behind zealot when you know he's going to die.
On June 02 2011 20:59 Dommk wrote: Hmm, your wall in is really far forward and it builds outwards, your cannons have to be placed really far forward because they need to cover much more surface area leaving you vulnerable to roach all-ins that just snipe the cannons.
I don't really pay attention to the wall-in myself, I tend to just wing it and it turns out fine every time. IMO, you should consider have the wall further back so your Cannons can be placed further back and in case they do manage to breach the wall, your Cannons can cover the Nexus too
Watch that game of xiaOt vs Idra to get a good idea of a wall that doesn't extend it self too far forward, also a great game to watch if you want to see IdrA get completely outplayed by xiaOt defending his Roach/Ling all-in. The wall xiaOt does can be modded easily such that there is a single hole for a Zealot if you want
That was awesome I am emulating that wall in and Forge FE every game now. I love how its just able to be made thicker and thicker with more buildings so efficiently
What i liked taking away from this was the angles where you can block with one zealot and still get an immortal through. I do think the second pylon adding some insurance power to the gate core forge wouldn't be amiss. Good research i hope you defend many a sling/bling bust.
About xiaOt's wall: Great job defending the push, so here are few things i don't like in his wall, even tho it's also good one:
1. Pylons too vunerable, if IdrA would focus them, he would do more demage before another pylon would go up. 2. Full wall with 4 buildings cost more and you have to destroy 1 building regardless of attack coming or not, while with the zealot you can still put Cyber core/Gateway behind him for complete wall 3. With cannons close to buildings he can snipe them, but he will take demage while hitting your wall buildings and next cannons should be farther away, that's correct. 1 cannon close and 1 away like he did is also fine, but i prefer them to do as much demage as posible before i build more cannons in the back if needed.
3. With cannons close to buildings he can snipe them, but he will take demage while hitting your wall buildings and next cannons should be farther away, that's correct. 1 cannon close and 1 away like he did is also fine, but i prefer them to do as much demage as posible before i build more cannons in the back if needed.
If you watch the game, you will see how long cannons that are close to a wall last against someone who is doing a roach all-in, it barely manages to bring two roaches to half HP before getting picked off.
1. Pylons too vunerable, if IdrA would focus them, he would do more demage before another pylon would go up.
Due to how his wall is, there is not a lot of surface area for the roaches to attack the Pylon and have to get right up close, they end up taking quite a lot of damage trying to focus the Pylons down, generally it isn't worth it because additional pylons that are out of range will be warped in if you try snipe the ones that are there
2. Full wall with 4 buildings cost more and you have to destroy 1 building regardless of attack coming or not, while with the zealot you can still put Cyber core/Gateway behind him for complete wall
It can be done with three buildings, but you will need a pylon to block the space.
If you extend your wall out too far forward what happens is everything gets picked off from a distance, and because you have a convex wall, your stalkers/Sentrys can't get range on the Roaches as easily and are actually quite vulnerable to roaches just running in and snipping the unit where as with xiaOts wall you units are in no real danger. On top of this your cannons have to be placed really close because there is so much surface area to cover and when your wall breaks it is really hard to close the gaps with emergency buildings.
Watch xiaots game, his build might be slightly inefficient in a situation where the Zerg chooses to macro but if that wall was built any other way he would have gotten destroyed by that all-in. The way it was built allowed him to reconstruct the wall backwards with very few buildings where as in your case you would have to dump 2-3 buildings down in succession to close gaps.
Ultimately it is up to you when it comes down to what particular wall-in you want to do--but xiaoT's wall is significantly more efficient if there happens to be an all-in of sorts and much easier to defend with.
If you watch the game, you will see how long cannons that are close to a wall last against someone who is doing a roach all-in, it barely manages to bring two roaches to half HP before getting picked off.
It takes more time to dps 2 cannons and gate than 1 cannon and gate, giving you even more time than xiaOt had for new cannons to finish. and there will be 2 cannons hitting all the time doing more demage (killing 1 roach which will also make your building last slightly longer and time is your friend in this situation).
Due to how his wall is, there is not a lot of surface area for the roaches to attack the Pylon and have to get right up close, they end up taking quite a lot of damage trying to focus the Pylons down, generally it isn't worth it because additional pylons that are out of range will be warped in if you try snipe the ones that are there
This is true, however i still think if IdrA focused the pylons with roaches while hitting the Forge with zerglings whe would do much much better in this fight (powering off gate, core, pylons and preventing additional cannons from being put down, and forge has lower hp than gate and space directly behind his forge is harder to wall with backup buildings)
If you extend your wall out too far forward what happens is everything gets picked off from a distance, and because you have a convex wall, your stalkers/Sentrys can't get range on the Roaches as easily
It's not significant with only 8 roaches imo
when your wall breaks it is really hard to close the gaps with emergency buildings.
After front cannon dies it's literaly the same, need only 1 building behind gate and pylons/cannons behind forge.
The way it was built allowed him to reconstruct the wall backwards with very few buildings where as in your case you would have to dump 2-3 buildings down in succession to close gaps
To reconstruct wall made of 3 buildings you need 3 buildings max, to reconstruct wall with 4 buildings you need 4 buildings max, but it always comes to how many of them enemy have destroyed.
Ultimately it is up to you when it comes down to what particular wall-in you want to do--but xiaoT's wall is significantly more efficient if there happens to be an all-in of sorts and much easier to defend with.
Ofc it can come down to personal preference, because both walls are ok imo, but you still didn't convinced me. I love having a zealot gap in it and with 3 buildings wall you can still do the same thing he did and even delay him a little more. Notice how second cannon was hitting roaches only during the time they focused first one and later only after additional cannons finished. Both walls will allow you to defend better or worse depends on enemy decsions. Optimal way to bust it is killng the forge asap.
I'm embarrassed to say that I vetoed Tal'Darim because I didn't feel confident FEing as I didn't know where to put my buildings. This will help a ton. Thank you sir.
To reconstruct wall made of 3 buildings you need 3 buildings max, to reconstruct wall with 4 buildings you need 4 buildings max, but it always comes to how many of them enemy have destroyed.
You are not getting where I'm coming from. I'm not talking about reconstructing the wall as it exists, but rather as your wall is dieing the need to create a wall further back with additional buildings. xiaOts build is extremely efficient when falling back on buildings as your front wall is dieing and you can block off spaces with single pylons or buildings which fall neatly into place. He really uses the terrain of the map to his advantage.
It's not significant with only 8 roaches imo
Well that is your opinion...
Well I don't want to spend all day repeating myself, both options are there--one in video form. Most people prefer to only build three buildings, I do too if I see hatch first but in general, I find your wall is too far forward for my liking, it is much harder to defend an all-in.
I'm not talking about reconstructing the wall as it exists, but rather as your wall is dieing the need to create a wall further back with additional buildings.
It's the same amount of building grid squares to cover.
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gl hf.
