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HI all, I'm looking for help trying to see what I could do better in future from a build I faced yesterday which was the most frustrating loss I've ever had (on that note, sorry for not gg'ing at the end, I usually always do but this game was annoying). The short version of the story is close ground positions on Metalopolis ZvT with the Terran building 3 Starports pumping out Banshees.
I know you're not meant to post if you can see basic things you can improve yourself, but I don't see anything I did wrong that majorly resulted in my loss that I could easily fix, but here's my analysis of what happened.
First, a quick timeline of what occured from my point of view.
3:18 Spine Started (in case of close positions, can be cancelled)
4:00 Spotted Factory
4:30 Starports start
4:38 Evo Chamber down and queen for anti air
5:40 Spore Crawler placed
7:20 3rd Queen started
7:40 Scouted double starport (though there were 3)
8:00 Spores started at natural
8:20 4th Queen Started
8:33 Banshees begin attacking and I lose
8:33+ Continue queen production he continues banshee production
The basics first, I didn't Drone scout as in my experience the second Overlord scouts close positions in time to cancel the Spine Crawler if needed, while the Pool first build with the Spine is sufficient for close position aggression.
At 4 minutes my first issue I feel I should address was when I scouted the Factory almost complete I was fairly sure it had to be Banshees (or Hellion play, but my mind had him on Banshee) so in my mind I immediately put down an Evolution Chamber and started a Queen, though in reality there was 38 seconds where I didn't. That said my Evolution Chamber started just 8 seconds after his Starports did, and I didn't know I needed more Spore's than I had until it was too late so I'm not convinced the tmiing of this is the cause for the loss.
What follows is the next big issue, whilst I spent the next 3 minutes preparing anti air (and a few Roaches) that was 3 minutes of not scouting which I feel definately contributed to the loss, but again here I encounter a problem. Whilst i did scout 2 Starports, there's nothing to have stopped him putting them further back and me not being able to scout them, and since the usual time for an Overlord sacrifice isn't that much earlier, would I have been able to ever scout sufficiently to beat this, or was this not the issue?
What follows is nothing short of me getting annihalated by Banshees, I manage to kill 2 just in time for 2 more to join the fight. I mismanaged my Queens a little, though again, I'm not sure that any amount of micro with what I had (4 Queens and 6 Spores over two bases) would have been sufficient unless I was able to have it all focussed on any spot the Banshees were. Really I don't know which point was the big issue here that caused me to lose, though I think by the time the Banshees had arrived I had already lost.
So the specific questions I have are:
• Did I make any other mistakes that I haven't noticed? I don't think I got supply capped or stopped drone production for no reasn at any point for instance.
• Was scouting the biggest issue? If so if they weren't directly on the wall is there a way I can reliably scout it significantly earlier? An Overlord sacrifice wouldn't have even brought me much time I feel, I scouted at 7:40 with the Lings, though I should have had an Overlord in position to sacrifice anyway. In short, how can I know to prepare for that many reliably?
• Should I have rushed Lair tech for Hydra's when I believed Banshee's were coming in the first place?
• Was my defense sufficient but just let down by horrible micro? (Silver league btw)
Is there anything else I could have done better that I haven't even considered I guess?
Here's the replay file: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/2663
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I don't see how he could afford to produce off three ports and one base without it being delayed... Considering that and the timing it was more like a slow two port. My go to for banshees is ultra fast spire. It can be risky to go straight muta if he pushes out with anything other than banshees, but a few mutas is instant win in this situation. If you see a ton of banshees and don't have the queens for it sac your expo save your queens and drones and defend your base/spire because once the spire pops it's gg. IMO never try and defend anything more than one-port with queens and crawlers, it'll just lead to frustrating losses that a single muta wouldve prevented. I mean you're welcome to try it but I feel like a dedicated two port will kill any queen hydra crawler defense before you hit critical mass
Of course nothing I just said addresses your questions.....
I guess go early lair when you scout banshees. Get the spire up ASAP. Do your best to scout his composition so you don't over make mutas if he's not overcommitting to banshees and enjoy your auto win.
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He had more workers than you the whole game (which wasn't a lot) without even any harass. I'm not sure what build you did but a 6 minute expand as zerg with so few drones? You'd be dead vs anything.
You can actually legitimately go 3 port if you plan it out. You get 1-3 rounds of banshees out of the extra port without cloak.
Your opponent tried to basically 2 port except he went 2 gas before fact, ended up with extra gas, slightly delayed ports, and threw down a third port. You didn't really drone up and instead went for a bunch of early roaches... There are times in the world where you should just go kill him, that was one of those times because you had a ground army advantage and no econ. I would recommend that you figure out some better builds for that map and actually speedling expand if you are setting up for a speedling expand.
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I have the same problem with you except it is 4 port
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On May 24 2011 23:07 chaosfreak11 wrote:
I have the same problem with you except it is 4 port
My problem is 1 base 5port :p
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On May 24 2011 23:19 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 23:07 chaosfreak11 wrote:
I have the same problem with you except it is 4 port My problem is 1 base 5port :p
I can hold this, but its the 1 base, 6 port Battle Cruisers which seems to get me.....
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First, thanks for the replies so far. This isn't actually the post I first wrote, but writing my further questions to the replies made me realise (I think) where the issue was based on your help.
I was originally going to point out I was behind on Drones and late on an expansion precisely because I was spending everything to defend the Banshee push (7 drones down on Spores and Evo Chamber), but I guess if I had gone with the expansion first and gotten the economy I would have been able to get more Drones up and then it becomes a matter of getting the right tools to counter it, I think?
I was looking at it as immediately trying to counter it rather than having a plan to beat it, and a quick test game suggests I could have easily made it to Spire in the time I had without wasting so many Drones so I think I was just forever doomed to failure with my method of trying to fight back. Am I on the right track?
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Hi. So here are some simple things you could fix.
1. Macro is your biggest issue. You had 13 drones at around the 7 minute mark. You should shoot for 30+ (pro players would have even many more than this). This directly contributed to your loss. With more money you would could have afforded more queens and could have thrown down more spores immediately on scouting the starports. Even if I have absolutely no scouting information I always get 4 queens against a terran who just sits in his base for 7 minutes because (a) they are good for creep spread, (b) there's a good risk of banshees, (c) they are good against hellions (the hellions will, if not micro'd, tend to auto-target them and they tank a lot of damage buying you time to kill the hellions off with speedlings with minimal drone loss).
2. Scouting is your other big issue. I think you're minimizing the problem here. You didn't run up his ramp for 3 minutes. You say "what if he had put the starports further back." Well, you don't need to see the starports to expect a lot of banshees. If you run up his ramp and see a factor with no reactor and no techlab and you don't get fried by a bunch of hellions--guess what: banshees. Even if you just see a low marine count and don't get hit by a hellion or pounded by some tank, guess what: banshees. You see those things throw down spores and tech straight to mutas.
3. The right response in case scouting fails. So just one other thing. Even if you totally fail on scouting you can still beat this with the right economy. Just sac whichever base he is attacking. Throw down many spores at your nat, transfer your drones and re-start your tech. The thing is that once you make his banshees more or less useless with the sporecrawlers you've really leveled the game. It's almost like you're just starting over. Just my 2 cents.
I'm not trying to be mean--just help out. Please don't take it the wrong way.
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On May 24 2011 23:31 Iyerbeth wrote:I was originally going to point out I was behind on Drones and late on an expansion precisely because I was spending everything to defend the Banshee push
Sorry not true at all. Spine crawler was out Before any info, roaches were out before you know there are banshees (or any units) and all of it could be just drones ...
Your problem is scouting. If you have zerglings, use them immediatelly to poke his front to see what he has there. Have ovie close and suicide it around 6 minute to see what is there is zerglings were not enough ...
Don't try to defend from something you don't know it's here. Zerg is reactive race, so you need to know, what is opponent doing before trying to defend yourself (roaches for example).
And best at the end ... if terran or toss is going early for mass air, they will have nearly nothing to defend with on ground, period. So just going in and raping him will ... win you the game or you will have enought time to build solid defence depending on what he has (he will defend with his air units - you will see exactly what he has and how many ...)
EDIT : sick_transit was faster with response, but we have same point ;-)
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On May 24 2011 23:31 Iyerbeth wrote:
First, thanks for the replies so far. This isn't actually the post I first wrote, but writing my further questions to the replies made me realise (I think) where the issue was based on your help.
I was originally going to point out I was behind on Drones and late on an expansion precisely because I was spending everything to defend the Banshee push (7 drones down on Spores and Evo Chamber), but I guess if I had gone with the expansion first and gotten the economy I would have been able to get more Drones up and then it becomes a matter of getting the right tools to counter it, I think?
I was looking at it as immediately trying to counter it rather than having a plan to beat it, and a quick test game suggests I could have easily made it to Spire in the time I had without wasting so many Drones so I think I was just forever doomed to failure with my method of trying to fight back. Am I on the right track?
Pretty much. I think you basically didn't know the timings and how to correctly counter with you build and just decided to put stuff down much sooner than the banshee timing. You should have a counter to 2 port anyway since its probably the most annoying Terran 1-base option out there. Either you kill his weak wall or you build extra queens with transfuse micro and a spine at every base.
See above for stuff like scouting. I think the main issue is you not knowing what a banshee timing is and what is the give away for banshee and how to scout it (Rax-Factory wall with no add-ons).
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You were trying to be too safe against everything, and ended up with a bad economy.
You opened pool first, which is less economical but makes you a bit safer against very early pressure. Typically after going pool first, you'll expand and drone up off the safety of your early game control provided by zerglings. Instead you went spine crawler, roach warren and evo chamber before expanding, which made it extremely late. You also made 5 roaches to defend against... what?
The result is less queen production, fewer drones (making each spore crawler costs 1 drone) which put you in a really poor position once the banshees came.
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On May 24 2011 23:38 sick_transit wrote:
I'm not trying to be mean--just help out. Please don't take it the wrong way.
Just to be clear first, I appreciate all the advice so far. I know no one has to go out of their way to help me and I'm really thankful to all of you for doing so.
On May 24 2011 23:57 Pamposek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 23:31 Iyerbeth wrote:I was originally going to point out I was behind on Drones and late on an expansion precisely because I was spending everything to defend the Banshee push Sorry not true at all. Spine crawler was out Before any info, roaches were out before you know there are banshees (or any units) and all of it could be just drones ...
The Spine Crawler was just something I get as a comfort thing for close ground positions as I'd never have time to get it up reactively (I always cancel it if my Overlord scouts show they're not close ground). Are you suggesting this is a bad idea? I've found it useful and I know it's not the issue in this thread but I'd like to play as best as possible so if it's wrong I'll fix it.
With regards the Roaches, I have to agree though. I did set up for a Speedling expand, then put down a Roach Warren for some reason I can't even begin to fathom. The reason I made Roaches though was definately a weakness in my play, I believed it was a Banshee play hence the anti air production but I wasn't confident enough in my decision so I made Roaches to protect against a possible ground push as well. The reason I wasn't confident again goes back to my scouting though, so I definately need to address that.
On May 25 2011 00:11 zylog wrote:
You were trying to be too safe against everything, and ended up with a bad economy.
You opened pool first, which is less economical but makes you a bit safer against very early pressure. Typically after going pool first, you'll expand and drone up off the safety of your early game control provided by zerglings. Instead you went spine crawler, roach warren and evo chamber before expanding, which made it extremely late. You also made 5 roaches to defend against... what?
The result is less queen production, fewer drones (making each spore crawler costs 1 drone) which put you in a really poor position once the banshees came.
That post pretty much sums how I feel about that game in hindsight with the help from you all. At the time I felt I had been constantly producing Drones, and a reasonable defense but really without that second base and spending the resources I did have to fight against stuff I was just guessing at was a terrible idea.
I was really stumped by this yesterday and going through it today a few times in the replay it was really bugging me, but having the issues pointed out I can really see I was looking at it in completely the wrong way. I was trying to see how to win from where I was rather than how to not get to where I was in the first place. So yeah, thank you.
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I play random but when I’m Terran I almost always go Banshee. I don’t normally go 3 ports that’s a bit crazy…but most sometimes I go two. The best defense is muta, no question. Banshee’s cost a lot and so does their cloaking.. two muta and an overseer and it’s basically GG. Queens pretty much suck against banshee’s and spore crawlers can be avoided if not placed right…they can even be killed if there’s not enough of them. I’ve sniped a few buildings because of poorly places spore’s
Hydra’s can also be out maneuvered if there’s high and low ground.. I just dip and dive from main to expansions. Especially if the Z hasn’t been good with his creep spread. Hydra’s are crazy slow off creep.
Muta owns Banshee play. If I’m Zerg and I see a tech lab on their port I drop a spire... I skip spore crawlers.
Plus if you manage to stop the banshee’s muta-ling-bling can mass up and break down any wall the Terran builds because he will have spent so much on the banshee’s his transition will suck.. he will probably go thor to protect against your muta but they’re slow and cumbersome.. it’d be your turn to out maneuver him.
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On May 25 2011 00:23 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 23:38 sick_transit wrote:
I'm not trying to be mean--just help out. Please don't take it the wrong way. Just to be clear first, I appreciate all the advice so far. I know no one has to go out of their way to help me and I'm really thankful to all of you for doing so. Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 23:57 Pamposek wrote:On May 24 2011 23:31 Iyerbeth wrote:I was originally going to point out I was behind on Drones and late on an expansion precisely because I was spending everything to defend the Banshee push Sorry not true at all. Spine crawler was out Before any info, roaches were out before you know there are banshees (or any units) and all of it could be just drones ... The Spine Crawler was just something I get as a comfort thing for close ground positions as I'd never have time to get it up reactively (I always cancel it if my Overlord scouts show they're not close ground). Are you suggesting this is a bad idea? I've found it useful and I know it's not the issue in this thread but I'd like to play as best as possible so if it's wrong I'll fix it.
So one spine crawler (if you don't count larvas) is 6 lings. 6 lings morphs in 24 seconds, so even on close positions enough time to have them when needed (terran = no forcefield). Spine crawler was made near mineral line, but when he will pressure you with marines, he will just go for queens/hatchery and snipe crawler will not hit him at all. If you are too afraid to be rushed, do 11 overlord extractor trick and send that drone to scout. You can even do gas steal to throw enemy off his build and make sure, there will be no 2 or 3 or more port banshee (they are sooo gas heavy).
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On May 25 2011 00:27 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
I play random but when I’m Terran I almost always go Banshee. I don’t normally go 3 ports that’s a bit crazy…but most sometimes I go two. The best defense is muta, no question. Banshee’s cost a lot and so does their cloaking.. two muta and an overseer and it’s basically GG. Queens pretty much suck against banshee’s and spore crawlers can be avoided if not placed right…they can even be killed if there’s not enough of them. I’ve sniped a few buildings because of poorly places spore’s
Hydra’s can also be out maneuvered if there’s high and low ground.. I just dip and dive from main to expansions. Especially if the Z hasn’t been good with his creep spread. Hydra’s are crazy slow off creep.
Muta owns Banshee play. If I’m Zerg and I see a tech lab on their port I drop a spire... I skip spore crawlers.
Plus if you manage to stop the banshee’s muta-ling-bling can mass up and break down any wall the Terran builds because he will have spent so much on the banshee’s his transition will suck.. he will probably go thor to protect against your muta but they’re slow and cumbersome.. it’d be your turn to out maneuver him.
I personally don't think muta is a viable defense against 2port banshee. Of course mutas pwn banshees since banshees can't shoot air, but getting a spire up on two base while being heavily harassed is hard as hell. Cloaked banshes should hit you just as your lair gets up, building a spire takes eons and then you have to get the mutas out. With banshees targetting your drones in gas. No go.
What works beautifully is to just get queens. 4 queens is good, 6 queens is fantastic. As long as you have scouted and are decently sure he went banshee, just get more and more queens and save up energy. Banshees are decent against queens, but with creep spread and transfuse, you become impossible to beat unless he gets a ridiculous amount of banshees which will cost him a lot more resources and time than it does for you to simply keep building queens. Add in a spore crawler or two and he shouldn't be able to hurt you at all and you can CONSTANTLY drone during this.
Transitioning into muta after this is strong, but I don't think rushing muta is viable against a good harasser.
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I watched the replay and I have to say that I am very unhappy with your scouting and your makro, especially droning and that late expension although there was no early aggression what so ever.
You need to focus on drone production and expanding, and dont get this many static defenses, by this time you could have been on 2 sturated or nearly saturated bases with lair tec and hydralisks.
What I can give you on you way through the starcraft universe is:
Scout, poke up the ramp drone scout, maybe consider takeing the opponents gas, drone drone drone, expand. And only produce combat units at the start of a game if you have to.
And I would call this 2 port banshees because the 3d port never produced a single banshee in this game.
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EPT
