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I've been coming against this a lot in ZvT and it's really fucking annoying. It's almost every game where Terran just turtles on 2 or 3 bases, mass thors and tanks, and a-moves. I can't kill his army, and then they lift everything off and just follow their army.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=209732
Yes, I'm pretty raged about this, and I bm at the end with a "your a fag" but this is really irritating. It's like every ZvT is now an all-in tank/thor. I don't know what unit composition to use and it's really annoying.
Normally I use Infestors and NP to deal with mass thor, but with siege tanks infestors are pretty useless. Really can't make any ground units, and broodlords just suck.
Edit: Get it. Make ridiculous number of broodlords to deal with ridiculous army. Here's a 2nd replay where it happened again, but I couldn't get hive tech.
On May 20 2011 00:14 Belial88 wrote:Here's a 2nd game where someone does this, and I lose. It's compete BS - he goes 1 base and prevents any scouting so I can't tell what he's doing, but I know it's 1 base so I take it slow and mass t1. He masses blue flame hellions and with hold position and transfuse I laugh it off. I counterattack with speed roaches, which are maybe late because I didn't even see a factory or 2nd gas until 10 blue flame hellions show up, but I throw a roach warren and immediately get speed (lair was already morphing, it was a late lair though because couldn't tell what he was doing, but this led to me getting speed roaches). I prevent his natural, and do a ton of damage but just don't break him since he defends with siege tanks. He had all his SCV's attack my roaches and essentially wall in but I'm sure he loses lots of SCVs. I make him cancel his expo twice. I'm unable to break him, my econ has suffered so I try to keep it in. Slag pits is a bit ridiculous to take a third on, and with close positions I can only hold to break him somehow. I continually come close to breaking him multiple times with roaches and speedlings. Finally, he has enough thors and siege tanks and does that dumbass 2 base push and wins. I'm getting really frustrated with this. I understand the last game I should've went just as ridiculous as the Terran and massed broodlords and had better army control, but in this game I'm just not sure as there was no way to get hive tech or broodlords on this shitty map on shitty positions. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=209905
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Speaking as a Terran who goes mass thors, tanks and hellions, broodlords do not suck at all, if you get a few out you force Terran to unseige and then your roaches/infestors have nothing to defend against them on the ground. The important thing is to make sure that you have enough corrupters once he gets out vikings though, or to move into ultralisks once he overmakes the vikings.
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well for starter that army composition from terran is insanely powerful as well as insanely immobile. you keep fronting him and losing everything to splash. Why don't you try to swing around and attack his expansions? if terran turns around and tries to counterattack, you can try to catch the army unsieged. I think you army comp and macro is ok, but if you are a little more tactful, it would do a world of good.
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You cant let P or T ever get 200 Food. That is pretty much just it.
I know people say zerg is the reactive race and its cool to go mass expo and get into a macro war, but you just cant. SC2 you cant let them get that kind of numbers of thor tank or you will just straight lose. So when hes on two base, start trading armys. If you can kill 40 food for you 80 food, its worth it. If he hits critical mass, its over.
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On May 18 2011 15:48 Belial88 wrote:
Normally I use Infestors and NP to deal with mass thor, but with siege tanks infestors are pretty useless. Really can't make any ground units, and broodlords just suck.
You could have won the battle if you had NP the thors in one of the major engagements where the tanks were not in seige mode as you can see about the 21 minute mark.
In addition,you wasted a couple of infestors for nothing by moving them up. Linking back to 'NP the thor', the infestors could have played at least a minor role or wasting a few rounds of seige tanks fire if the tanks were there. However, it was wasted for nothing.
Fungal Growth using those infestors could have been useful at all.
Harass:
During your harass, you used up a lot of infested terrans, i felt that it was a waste considering how many blue flame helion there were, Fungal growth would have done better in that occassion.
You should have attacked earlier or preventing them from getting a good economy such as infestor drops which would be devastating.
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Just watched the replay.
Don't have time to go through and point out the timings of it all, but the problem I saw in that wasn't his comp, it was your engagements. You got out broodlords, which are definitely a real hassle to deal with as terran, whatever your comp. In the first main engagement (where he was up on food to you by around 10, he was maxed you were slightly undermaxed), sent your roaches in first, then your infestors and broodlords (which is how it should have went). Then you pulled out your roaches and infestors, letting the thors take most of the health off the broodlords for almost no return. Then you went back in with roaches, and almost won. If you had just committed at first, you could have had the battle. Same thing second large engagement, just he came out further ahead. Then you sent a ton of ultras in to be killed by the thors. Against mech, you need to engage where you are comfortable and abuse the immobility of it.
Roach drop his base when his units are at his front, then engage while he's got half his army away. If you want to engage straight into his line, max sure you are maxed, and have enough larve to instantly remax. Get your positioning right, with roaches in to tank damage and shift click up his thors. Then come the broodlords to deal a lot of damage, while and the same time neural parasite thors. Don't commit then pull out then finally commit again once your broodlords and almost dead. I won't commentate on the composition, since i only go marine/tank in TvZ so I'm not sure of the best counter.
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The only thing that shoots up in this army is thors, Why not just mass muta and magic box the hell out of the entire army.
Its the same thing as using Broodlords to do it, the only solution the terran has is vikings and marines, and if he over making either one, an ultralisk + baneling army will decimate his entire army and base.
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Ok, having just watched the replay I'll say that you lost because you twice threw away brood lords by sending them alone into open areas, letting the thors move around to hit them, you need to either buffer the brood lords with a ground army or engage over a choke, also ultralisks can't just run into a massive seige line (15+) tanks and expect to do any damage, it was that second battle which cost you the game, the first battle you came out ahead by quite a bit.
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I did take out his expansions. I took out his whole base so he just lifted it all and had it follow his army.
Maybe throwing my army into his line wasn't the best idea, but it's not like I wasn't remaxed 3, 4,5 times afterwards. I had plenty of money.
You cant let P or T ever get 200 Food. That is pretty much just it.
I know people say zerg is the reactive race and its cool to go mass expo and get into a macro war, but you just cant. SC2 you cant let them get that kind of numbers of thor tank or you will just straight lose. So when hes on two base, start trading armys. If you can kill 40 food for you 80 food, its worth it. If he hits critical mass, its over.
I don't agree with this. For one, not hard for them to get 200 food on 3 bases. Secondly, I do believe any deathball can be beat with Zerg. Not always easy, but possible for sure.
During your harass, you used up a lot of infested terrans, i felt that it was a waste considering how many blue flame helion there were, Fungal growth would have done better in that occassion.
yea that sucked. If I had FF'd maybe it would've done better, I didn't think his army would get there in time.
Then you pulled out your roaches and infestors, letting the thors take most of the health off the broodlords for almost no return. Then you went back in with roaches, and almost won. If you had just committed at first, you could have had the battle. Same thing second large engagement, just he came out further ahead. Then you sent a ton of ultras in to be killed by the thors. Against mech, you need to engage where you are comfortable and abuse the immobility of it.
There were so many god damned siege tanks. My roaches were getting destroyed, and my BL's couldn't reach the siege tanks.
Roach drop his base when his units are at his front, then engage while he's got half his army away. If you want to engage straight into his line, max sure you are maxed, and have enough larve to instantly remax. Get your positioning right, with roaches in to tank damage and shift click up his thors. Then come the broodlords to deal a lot of damage, while and the same time neural parasite thors. Don't commit then pull out then finally commit again once your broodlords and almost dead. I won't commentate on the composition, since i only go marine/tank in TvZ so I'm not sure of the best counter
Yea I was dropping a nydus right when his doom push came. Maybe I shouldn't have macro'd as hard. he had so many siege tanks though, I don't think I could've used roaches like that. Maybe mass broodlord would've been better.
Maybe magic box would've been better, it was pretty ridiculous what his army was. So many thors and tanks, that's all he had.
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Baneling bombs and Roach bombs from overlords, with mass Roach, transitioning eventually into Broodlords. Can't believe you said BL's suck, they are probably one of the hardest counters in the game to mech T.
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Fungal growths are quite op against mech, the thors would have died from 48 seconds of non-stop fungal growths
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@CustomKal- It's a common misconception that magic-boxed mutas are cost-effective against thors let's look at the math of a 3 mutalisk vs 1 thor battle (where we have roughly equal supply's and costs). A mutalisk fires twice for every thor shot and deals 8 damage, and a thor 3 hits a mutalisk so the mutalisks fire a total of 6*(3+2+1)=36 times. This deals 36*8 damage to the thor which leaves it at about 25% health. So to deal with the army of ~10 thors you need >30 mutas to effectively deal with them which leaves your ground army virtually useless.
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infestor NP with baneling drops and large (replenishable roach meatshield)
BLs are for aggression (they are Z's aerial siege weapons)
if this doesn't work...not sure what else would
let me check the replay and get back 
EDIT: A neat trick would be to morph the corruptors into broodlords right over the thors...and cancel the ones going into red...it would be a nice way to distract the thor's deadly ground fire as well.
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On May 18 2011 16:34 WrathOfGlod wrote:
@CustomKal- It's a common misconception that magic-boxed mutas are cost-effective against thors let's look at the math of a 3 mutalisk vs 1 thor battle (where we have roughly equal supply's and costs). A mutalisk fires twice for every thor shot and deals 8 damage, and a thor 3 hits a mutalisk so the mutalisks fire a total of 6*(3+2+1)=36 times. This deals 36*8 damage to the thor which leaves it at about 25% health. So to deal with the army of ~10 thors you need >30 mutas to effectively deal with them which leaves your ground army virtually useless.
Doesn't scale like that, as you have to take into account things such as moving from target to target, what's in range, muta attack bounce, etc.
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On May 18 2011 16:36 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 16:34 WrathOfGlod wrote:
@CustomKal- It's a common misconception that magic-boxed mutas are cost-effective against thors let's look at the math of a 3 mutalisk vs 1 thor battle (where we have roughly equal supply's and costs). A mutalisk fires twice for every thor shot and deals 8 damage, and a thor 3 hits a mutalisk so the mutalisks fire a total of 6*(3+2+1)=36 times. This deals 36*8 damage to the thor which leaves it at about 25% health. So to deal with the army of ~10 thors you need >30 mutas to effectively deal with them which leaves your ground army virtually useless.
Doesn't scale like that, as you have to take into account things such as moving from target to target, what's in range, muta attack bounce, etc.
The splash would be rather negligible if the thors had armour upgrades. What about the damage taken during the time the mutas take to magic-box??
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In my calculations I tried to error in simplification on the side of the mutalisks, having them take absolutely no splash damage and giving them a slight buff to their cooldown (their cooldown is slightly more than half the thors). The big thing which makes thors even better is that a late game meching player is going to have sick upgrades on the thors, a thor which can 2-shot a muta can takeout ~5 mutas before being killed if it has +1 armor.
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If you see mass thors, expand furiously, get a few muta to shutdown the hellion harass and get a fast hive. Roach infestor can beat Heavy mech too but broodlords are the best counter for mech.
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^ i did expand furiously, I even took every base on his side of the map. I guess mass broodlords should've been better instead of just getting only 5 and trying to play a normal game.
Yea mass muta doesn't sound like the best idea.
People keep saying infestors but with heavy siege tanks you can't do infestors.
I think the only solution is like insanely mass broodlord with armor upgrades. Pretty ridiculous since you can't do that on 4 base against some turtling 3 base.
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On May 18 2011 17:04 Belial88 wrote:
^ i did expand furiously, I even took every base on his side of the map. I guess mass broodlords should've been better instead of just getting only 5 and trying to play a normal game.
Yea mass muta doesn't sound like the best idea.
People keep saying infestors but with heavy siege tanks you can't do infestors.
I think the only solution is like insanely mass broodlord with armor upgrades. Pretty ridiculous since you can't do that on 4 base against some turtling 3 base.
Infestors is a must against mech,everything that they have counter mech,even infested terrans as they draw the tanks fire potentially causing splash damage from the tank to land on the thor.
The next time you go laddering you try using infestors ACTIVELY and see the difference it does against mech.
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^ I really don't understand what you are getting at. Mass siege tanks stop infestors pretty hard, IT is cute but it won't win games and they can scan and get a raven pretty simply to deal with IT bombs if I'm stubborn about it. You can't kill 20 siege tanks and 20 thors using an IT bomb every once in a while.
I do use infestors actively, quite a condescending post. Did you even watch the replay.
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EPT
