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Introduction: we all know the classic muta, speedling, and baneling(maybe) combo for ZvZing. Many have turned away this combo in favor of roach infestor. However, i want to tell you that muta ling is not as weak as some may think.
About this guide: this relies on the fact that Roaches are not a counter to lings, and that when individually surrounded, roaches are killed quickly.
1. Early Game(credits to all the posters who have posted this
to start off, do the +1 atk speedling build:
+ Show Spoiler +
10 Extractor Trick
11 Overlord
11 Spawning Pool(you should have one larva ready to morph for a pair of lings to kill drone scouts)
13 Extractor
15 Queen
18 evo
17 Overlord
lings and a few drones
Additional notes:
Put an ovy near the enemys ramp to see if hes going to blok it.
First 100 gas goes to +1 melee atk the next 100 goes to speed( they should finish around the same time)
Expand and get your mains 2nd gas when you send your lings
Against fast expo builds, this may end the game right then and there due to the fact that the speedlings are so overwhelmingly powerful.
Against speedling ppl, the battle will be quite lopsided and can really force your opponent to get more lings to balance the fight as you confortably expand and drone up. ( go to 2a)
Against roach ppl, try to run through the ramp if his roachs are out of position, if you cannot, camp outside his base to prevent him from expoing.
2a. Transition against ling/bling/(mutalisks or infestor)
Try to delay his natural as long as as you can(You want to get a few roachs or banelings to back your speedlings up) while you get your natural up and tech to mutalisks.
If he transitions to Roaches, go to 2b instead.
Send your mutalisks onto his base. If he has mutalisks of his own go to 3a, if he has infestors go to 3b.
2b. Transition against roach/infestor
Tech to mutas and banelings.(and get burrow too)
He will have to get a good amount of roaches to even move out of his base, however, you do not want to lose your initial speedlings, so move them back when he masses a good amount of roaches.
Note: if he doesnt seem to building a lot of roaches, be ready for some type of one base tech as you use overlords and speedlings to scout for any hidden expoes)
Now send your mutalisks, however, MICRO THEM! Move them around wildly so it will be very hard for him to aim the FGs with his infestors(believe me, aiming the FGs would be like trying to snipe a small piece of diamond on a ring from a mile away. He will be very frustrated and will spam infested Terran. So just harass another mineral line instead.
Dealing with his attacks: Now youll be wondering how speedlings can kill off a mass number of roaches. So heres the plan;
Burrow a huge amount of lings and blings at a choke, when he goes over the area, unburrow your lings and blings. This will cause his roaches to be suddenly surrounded(I have found that zerg players dont usually put their overseers as part of the attacking army, and even if he does, use your flock of mutalisks to snipe it) you should also have a a few speedlings to attack his undefended base to punish him for it. if the battle is extremely lopsided, he'll probably automatically GG. other wise, go to 3C once lategame approaches.
Notes: HARASS HIM TO DEATH!!!!!
KEEP GETTING UPGRADES FOR YOUR LINGS
Use overseer(s) so he cant burrow his roaches.
3a. muta v. muta
Your mutalisks should be able to beat his mutalisks by sheer numbers as youll have the better economy. (get upgrades for your flyers and try to stay one base ahead of him)
if its a standstill, then your cracklings and ultras will do the trick.
3b.mutaling v. ling infestor
Move your mutalisks wildly whenever you engage so that he'll just waste his FGs on nothing.
keep on teching and getting upgrades, and play normally, and you should win.
3c. End game against Roach infestor
take advantage of your fast army to continously harass him(baneling drops are viable here too!)(with your huge mutalisk flock, you can usually attack his spore crawlers head on)
You should have cracklings already, just tech to either BLs or ultras as your main force and atk when his army is out of position trying to take out a harass force.
Notes: Use your mutalisks to take out any undefended tech buildings( you can really piss him off if you kill off his roach warren, infestor pit, or ultralisk cavern)
post any objections to this build, i will try to read them
a few replay added(i dont save my replays so i could only find very crappy examples(been too focused on school)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171067-1v1-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171067-1v1-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171072-1v1-zerg-scrap-station
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Interesting post. Maybe in wrong forum (should be in strategy?) Also when do you make first extractor... I think you left it out of the build.
Further seems to be micro intensive... and I'm not convinced a good roach upgrade build won't murder this...
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Never seen mutaling work in zvz so I will need a good amount of replays to be a believer -- if I see muta, I just add hydra and attack and win. Not to mention 2 fungal growths can kill all of your mutas.
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Usually I dont think your ranking on starcraft should matter much on what you have to say, but i am ccurious to see what level the op is at to see where it works
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On April 30 2011 08:00 algorithm0r wrote:
Interesting post. Maybe in wrong forum (should be in strategy?) Also when do you make first extractor... I think you left it out of the build.
Further seems to be micro intensive... and I'm not convinced a good roach upgrade build won't murder this...
srry, cant believe i missed putting the extractor in... fixed now. also, what do you mean by upgraded roach? as in roaches with evo upgrades or roaches with tunnelling claws or something?
i mean, if ur speedlings are camping in his nat, hell have to build more roaches to expand right? or are you suggesting that one base roach beats 2 base mutaling? dont forget that 2 base keeps up with upgrades more easily..
to whatever mod sees this: pls move this to the strat forum. Thanks
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Mutaling doesn't work lol. Roaches counter mutalisk. He'll kill all your buildings before you killed all his roaches.
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also, u delayd your speed by a greaaat deal, mining 200 gas makes your economy in early much worse as well, how do you deal with anything early game? U have 1 base slow lings for like 2 minutes, how can it work?
Ling bane eats this alive, u have no way of defending it, u cant attack vs any speedling build as well, so he can easily take 2nd base usually, what more +1 roaches 2 shot lings, and this is why roaches do good vs lings later, also ranged feature makes them better and better in larger numbers, while more lings are less and less effective.
I would be cool if mutas were usefull in zvz, but your build and strategy seems so weak in many points.. Like what you do vs roach hydra guy? hydras+1overseer makes all your strats useless.
Let's remember that ANYTHING CAN work, but we need to find strategy that isnt any suprise based, but just solid. Otherwise, its like telling: "burrow 20 banes at watchtower, when terran comes with whole army, blow it up! Perfect strategy that wins me games!" yeah, but 1 scan is hard counter to this, and thats why it cant be main strategy part.
Still, experimenting stuff is good, i just see too many flaws for it to work in higher lvl games..
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I really would like to see a few replays of this build as I do not believe that higher level players will have trouble hitting the mutas with a fungal growth.
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A [G] thread should definitely have some replays to show it off.
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This build might work for a little while but anything where your relying on your opponent not being able to do something, in this case fungal accurately, will reach a point where your opponents are good and fungal your mutas then your build will no longer work.
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um... I just stumbleUpon'd this thread. No offence but it's not really that good, but I am severly confused why i stumbled it...
You need reps I guess, also, it's not very viable. transitioning to baneling against roach infestor? I don't see why that would work at all.
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I only read this post to hear your explanation for how to win vs infestors and all I got was:
Move your mutalisks wildly whenever you engage so that he'll just waste his FGs on nothing.
keep on teching and getting upgrades, and play normally, and you should win.
I mean infestors are THE reason you can't go muta in zvz. You need a better argument than that. You're assuming the guy is gonna screw up his fungals which rarely happens. an infestor and a couple queens can take a crap ton of mutas.
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On April 30 2011 23:38 Holophonist wrote:I only read this post to hear your explanation for how to win vs infestors and all I got was: Show nested quote +Move your mutalisks wildly whenever you engage so that he'll just waste his FGs on nothing.
keep on teching and getting upgrades, and play normally, and you should win. I mean infestors are THE reason you can't go muta in zvz. You need a better argument than that. You're assuming the guy is gonna screw up his fungals which rarely happens. an infestor and a couple queens can take a crap ton of mutas.
Against roach/infestors you can snipe infestors really quickly with 3-4 muta. I do this a lot but i tend to add infestors + banelings drops on top of his army. The thing is to no show your muta until you have 10+ or if they're scouted. So you need to be aware of overseers and changeling.
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you make a ton of assumptions in your post. while omitting a lot of key things. you presuppose an unrealistic situation here. fast +1 then speed is a big investment in gas that early. lings are larva intensive, you dont even bother addressing how you plan to counter a baneling in the early game. when your opponent scouts and sees you didnt go roach and attempt an all in they will probably do a build that gives a nod to the possibility of mutas in the mid game. what you say about infestors is flat out wrong. even if mutas are worlds faster you wont be able to get damage in once they are out. what happens when he pushes out before you have burrow? you make no mention of a third base yet your end game involves hive tech and adrenal glands. and lastly, you didnt even post replays.
so like i said, a lot of holes here. i do believe mutas have a place in zvz still but they are not the threat they once were. the one thing i can say i like about your build is your fast +1.
good work and a good effort, but make sure you are more thorough with details and include replays for your next guide. until then keep practicing
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First, it'd be stellar to have a few replays so that we could analyze how this stacks up against traditional roach/investor play.
Second, in this case, you're going to have to be teching while expanding like crazy. This i feel like is an incredibly gas intensive build, and to get up a sizable flock at all, to the point where you can actually pick apart buildings / do more than just kill a few drones before he puts spores up.
You also mention constantly upgrading your lings, while i agree that +1 lings are VERY good against 0/0 roaches, you've got to keep in mind that your opponent will probably be upgrading his units too. mostly because the unit he's spamming only costs 25 gas, instead of 100. So every upgrade you get is going to be 1 (or towards the later part of the game 2/2.5) mutas that you COULD have been able to build.
Bear in mind that fungal ignores armor, and lings tend to clump up nicely, and roaches will walk over them after one infest, since they all suddenly become 1 hit to kill.
I feel like if you could snipe infestors really well, you could catch your opponent off guard, but i believe you'd have a difficult time keeping up in upgrades, and just in general, because you'll need 8 gasses to make this work (I just picked it b/c it seemed healthy. 4 seems way too few, and 6 would still be stretching you thin). And by the time you're at 4 bases, you're extremely vulnerable to him just picking a place, walking up, and denying it.
But i feel like a lot of this isn't taking into the account any potential repalys you could / should upload to let us all know how viable this is, and what level it's at
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I do muta in ZvZ however only to contain him. You don't need more than 10 mutas to keep him on 2 bases while you expo up like mad and get ur own roach/infestor/hydra army.
Muta as your main army just won't work but they rape as a containment unit.
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Yeah, mass mutas in ZvZ is really not good because of the speed of the infestor on creep. One fungal, and your entire flock cannot move and completely dies.
However, I have seen some interesting builds that involve going for mass mutas, which can give you a crap ton of map control until the roach numbers get too big. When you've got that map control, you can double expand and go for fast brood lords, which have a huge range of fire and can keep the infestors away from your mutas.
I played a game last night where almost this exact thing happened, but not well. I hatch first versus an 11 pool build and held it off by pulling most of my drones, and had a big economic lead. Midgame he went mass mass mutas but the roach/infestor army that I had basically neglected any muta harass that my opponent was putting on me. Even though I had speedlings all over the map and didn't let him expand, I lost to really really fast broods and a base trade scenario where I killed all his tech buildings and all his bases, but I couldn't kill his broods/mutas with infestors alone. He was slowly killing all my 6+ bases with his broods while throwing hatcheries all over the map to stay alive. The broodlings keep the infestors away from the mutas, and spamming infested terrans can only go so far.
I think that against any significant number of brood lords, you need to get hydras. I can try to post this replay later today when I get off work, but I'm not sure if sc2gears was running so I might not have it.
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On April 30 2011 16:30 Crescend1 wrote:
also, u delayd your speed by a greaaat deal, mining 200 gas makes your economy in early much worse as well, how do you deal with anything early game? U have 1 base slow lings for like 2 minutes, how can it work?
Ling bane eats this alive, u have no way of defending it, u cant attack vs any speedling build as well, so he can easily take 2nd base usually, what more +1 roaches 2 shot lings, and this is why roaches do good vs lings later, also ranged feature makes them better and better in larger numbers, while more lings are less and less effective.
I would be cool if mutas were usefull in zvz, but your build and strategy seems so weak in many points.. Like what you do vs roach hydra guy? hydras+1overseer makes all your strats useless.
Let's remember that ANYTHING CAN work, but we need to find strategy that isnt any suprise based, but just solid. Otherwise, its like telling: "burrow 20 banes at watchtower, when terran comes with whole army, blow it up! Perfect strategy that wins me games!" yeah, but 1 scan is hard counter to this, and thats why it cant be main strategy part.
Still, experimenting stuff is good, i just see too many flaws for it to work in higher lvl games..
I agree with what Crescend1 said. It's really hard to deal with speed lings when you have slow lings. the +1 attack won't matter as much because you won't be able to put much aggression on your opponent for the fact that a runby is certain to come. After saying that, your opponent will feel very comfortable with either expanding or teching up to roaches.
If you want to move out, you have to make spine crawlers which will cut into your ling production as well as minerals.Saying that you want to get a +1 melee upgrade, you are already cutting mineral mining for a great deal of time. that extra 100 gas could have been spent on a faster baneling nest and a couple of banelings. which is a better substitute for 2 -3 spine crawlers.
The concept of the muta ling baneling composition in ZvZ is a pretty good idea. You get a LOT of map control, making you comfortable in expanding and droning up. you're also counting at how many roaches you has at the so you can keep production of lings. You can dump most of your gas on infesters or more mutas, thus containing him on 1 or 2 bases whereas you can freely expand, upgrade and etc.
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Not a single time in your OP you mentioned hydras as a reaction. What's up with that?
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lings dont counter roaches when roaches have +1 attack and 2 shot your lings. Also a strategy thats relying on your opponent missing FG is not the best strategy.
There are so many counters to this strategy. Hydra roach infestor beats this easly unless you are ahead in suply. Also roach-baneling push in early game(before muta) is so hard to stop with pure lings.
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EPT
