I've recently had a lot of struggles holding one-base terrans, whether it be Thor pushes or MMM all-ins. Sometimes I get the intuition that it's coming but still don't properly respond because I'm not sure based on my scouting information. Say, for argument's sake, I can't get a good scout in time with an observer. What exactly should I be looking for early on that might spell one-base all-in from the terran? If I see two barracks up, when do I know that it's early or if it's a more standard build? I've particularly struggled with heavy marauder play as I tend to get a lot of stalkers early on (mobility and to shut down any potential banshee harass).
Anyhow, any help would be great. If you could also inform me on the proper counter for this that would be great. Is it ever safe to expand when you're facing a one-base all-in? etc.
How do you normally like to open in PvT? Generally with a one-gate expand you can hold most every all-in Terran. If you are opening more safely and take the expo later you will have a harder time holding than if you expo early; with the second base you can pump more economy+chronoboost into holding and you can afford to be inefficient.
Throwing down an early robo will help. On the one hand you can have an Observer over his base in time (what you said we shouldn't look at) or you can get Immortals. You should hold an expansion with 2 Immortals, 4 Zealots and all other Minerals in Stalkers.
My MMM timing push hits at ~ 8:00 with 3 Rax, 1 Reactor, 2 Techlab (so 2 Marines and 2 Marauders at one cycle) with Stim and CS. If you dont want to expand with the 2 Gate-Robo-Build because you have that "feeling", stay on one base and get one more gate, and 2 sentrys to forcefield.
I've recently had a lot of struggles holding one-base terrans, whether it be Thor pushes or MMM all-ins. Sometimes I get the intuition that it's coming but still don't properly respond because I'm not sure based on my scouting information.
Basically, if they aren't expanding and they have a full complement of unit producing structures (roughly 4 that they're using, many builds don't use the factory). Remember that reactors count as another building.
Say, for argument's sake, I can't get a good scout in time with an observer. What exactly should I be looking for early on that might spell one-base all-in from the terran? If I see two barracks up, when do I know that it's early or if it's a more standard build? I've particularly struggled with heavy marauder play as I tend to get a lot of stalkers early on (mobility and to shut down any potential banshee harass).
Well your obs should be out for all but the earliest allins. For the really early ones (marine/scv etc) you need to rely on pokes with your early zealot/stalkers. What opening are you using that your obs can't tell you if it's a 2rax or an allin?
Anyhow, any help would be great. If you could also inform me on the proper counter for this that would be great. Is it ever safe to expand when you're facing a one-base all-in? etc.
best, Zur!ch
Well allin isn't a binary thing, it's a spectrum. Against a 2port banshee/raven type allin, you probably don't want to expand, because you've pretty much won if you hold it, as they have no transition at all. If they're only somewhat allin though, you may well want to. It depends a lot on the map/positions too. Close position Temple? Don't expand. Opposite position Taldarim? You're expanding too late if you have an obs out!
On April 25 2011 16:49 sam!zdat wrote: How do you normally like to open in PvT? Generally with a one-gate expand you can hold most every all-in Terran. If you are opening more safely and take the expo later you will have a harder time holding than if you expo early; with the second base you can pump more economy+chronoboost into holding and you can afford to be inefficient.
I typically do not 1-gate expand and will usually go 2-gate + robo and 3-gate expand. That way I can have enough units out in case of early pushes (perhaps all these one-base all-ins has put me on my back foot a bit and now I'm playing more safe versus Terran). I think my biggest problem, as I said before, was not being able to look at the early build and sense that pressure was coming in the form of the timing attack. A couple times I lost around the same time my Nexus at my natural expansion was finishing or becoming saturated and I was a bit low in units at the time as I was spending a lot of probes or tech. It just seems like a couple times they have come out with an ungodly amount of marauders, something that would be extremely hard to stop no matter what type of build you use. I know immortals are important but a balanced mix of marine/marauder does great against both stalkers as well as immortals.
I've stopped these all-ins before as well. Sometimes though, I'm just left completely baffled by how they got so many units out that quickly. I suppose DTS could be in an interesting counter to this as well as they were certainly dropping MULEs throughout to boost their economy as they pushed out as many units as possible.
A one base MMM, only be strong for a very short time. Just go zealot heavy to distract fire from stalkers and immortals while you target fire marauders, ground armor help loads as well if you can get it in time. Seriously a one base MMM push is such a non-problem, if you are really having that many problems just stall with forcefield or cut the enemies army in half and block off the rest. The enemy should be decent for the first one or two Stims but just won't have enough medivacs on one base to keep it up for long, an then just counter attack when the opponent throws down his late expansion.
Oh, scouting, two or more barracks with add ons means early stim push/all-in, also want to watch out for tansk because that is an even stronger timing push to counter sentry force fields. Stim timing pushes come in anywhere after the 7:30 mark in game.
Simply just poke in and see how many marauders they have at 6:00 and you will be able to tell if they have a bit big of an army. Usually the biggest tell.
It's hard to give you advice without having a replay... Asking how to stop a one base all in from Terran is like asking how to play PvT in general. Not saying Terrans all in all the time, I'm saying that your BOs should be restrained by the possibility of 1 base all ins.
There are plenty of awesome guides on the recommended thread post it that explain every standard PvT strategy in detail and every one of them explains how to react to 1 base play.
On a personal note, I recommend Tyler's 1 gate fast robo + 2 more gates before expand which is in my opinion the safest build around with the ultra fast observer.
Last thing, the only way to survive against MM or MMM in the early game is sentries. Play with a friend and ask him to attack you like 20 times with the same unit composition, and practice on getting down those FFs perfectly.
This might seem like too general advice, but once again, we can't really help you with such a vague question and no replay...
Post a replay and an explanation of your skill level, and the style that you like to play. There are numerous ways to scout all-ins/tech early on but it really depends on your style (either fast obs for passive players or early pressure).
you should always pressure the terrans front with your first stalker and zealot in my opinion. alot of marines indicates a tech build or some kind of crazy mass marine play ( but they would more likely have been aggressive with mass marine ) , a good number of marines and marauders indicates a 3-rax or similar heavy bio one base play. A small number of marines and 1/2 marauders indicates a 1 rax / marauder expand.
Also you should be in they're base unitl that marine pops most of the time. a second gas before 20-22 supply SCREAMS heavy tech, normally 1-1-1 banshee
On April 26 2011 00:09 aaycumi wrote: Oh, scouting, two or more barracks with add ons means early stim push/all-in, also want to watch out for tansk because that is an even stronger timing push to counter sentry force fields. Stim timing pushes come in anywhere after the 7:30 mark in game.
Simply just poke in and see how many marauders they have at 6:00 and you will be able to tell if they have a bit big of an army. Usually the biggest tell.
2 Rax with add-ons isn't so bad, you can expand super safely behind it. Usually you'll have one with the tech lab to get Marauders then drop the Reactor so you can stop Marine production from the second one to accumulate enough minerals to make your CC.
As a Toss player it is really hard, but usually you are able to hold MMM all in with a 3 Gate and good FF as soon as raven and tanks are part of the push i really dont know how to handle it ... Only Stargate can help in my opinion, to lift the tanks and to kill banshees and Ravens
Good forcefields and immortals will crush this 1-base MMM. The key is to have enough zealots once you've forcefielded their army because you need to outdps their few medivacs. Target firing mauraders with the immortal also helps. It maximises the dps done. It doesn't matter if he nearly kills you. It'll come down to control but if you come out ahead you've pretty much won the game.
The two gate robo expand is probably a good choice. The observers get over his base before your expo finishes so you can even cancel it if you have to (against raven bashee all-in or summin).
Thanks for the advice. Sorry I don't have a replay. I recently reformatted my hard drive and lost 100s of replays because my hard drive became corrupt. Since then I haven't faced this type of all-in but if I do and can't handle it I'll certainly post it here. I think for now I'll go 1-gate fast robo then 2 gates against terran so I can get that early observer out and know exactly what they're doing -- if i see a lot of marauder, then i go immortal etc.
On April 26 2011 02:54 BlACKTrA wrote: As a Toss player it is really hard, but usually you are able to hold MMM all in with a 3 Gate and good FF as soon as raven and tanks are part of the push i really dont know how to handle it ... Only Stargate can help in my opinion, to lift the tanks and to kill banshees and Ravens
Be active active active with your army. With a 3 Gate your mindset is to pressure anyways, so your army should be roaming the map. You have to intercept the push BEFORE it gets to your natural, force him to engage unsieged. If he puts down the PDD in the engagement, just retreat to your natural and do it again, except this time he won't be able to PDD.
If you let him siege up and put PDD in range of your natural/ramp, you lose.
The main way I deal with one base terrans is to get two obsevers ASAP and focus on seeing the attacks before they come. This gives you time to set up your army before hand and prepare for the rush. This gives you more time to warp in the correct units and hit the terran before they hit you.
The other part, which can be super fustrating, is dealing with the second all in. Some low level terrans will follow up a failed all in with...ANOTHER ALL IN. Those are the worst to hold off if you expanded. The best thing to remember is to never skimp on the units and keep an eye on the terran's army.
Its sort of a bummer, but the best way is to starve them out and make sure they cant expand, rather than attack.
MMM is marine marauder medivac, and only 1 person so far has mentioned medivacs. There are two different forms of 1 base MMM from terran:
They can do a 2 rax MMM into expo with a double medivac drop with marines (this is what select does a lot, and you can find replays of him doing this from MLG dallas on their website).
There is also a style Sjow used a lot against toss who went robo before expanding, which is a 3 rax double medivac one base play. With this style, you basically get all of your 2 base infrastructure before expanding (sort of like 3 gate robo from protoss). These types of openings are pretty taxing to deal with, but can be held. It gives me the most problems on close air metal/shattered, where positions really shine. The giveaways before any obs scouting will be a heavier presence and only 2 marauders (usually starts with the 1 marine 2 marauder poke, and then gas is saved for factory/star into vacs after this). The best way to deal with it is to drop your expansion when possible and get up to 4 warpgates and not make from your robo, other than your observer (if you had gone for a 2-3 gate robo). If you haven't decided to go robo yet, skip it for now. Gateway units will keep you mobile and with stim timing increased by 30 seconds, you will have enough time to get units out. Keep your zealots and sentries at the front of your base, and leave 3-4 stalkers in the back to snipe and double-pronged attack in the form of their fast medivacs. Once you hold the pressure, or outright deflect it, you are safe to tech to whatever you like from here, be it upgrades, robo, stargate, or templar tech.
In short, expand, stay on lots of gateway units, and spread out! Don't let dropships get easy access to your base! (If they are clumping in a ball and 1 a'ing you, then you should be able to strait up win with proper FF to cut their army in half). Remember to expand, and the longer they wait, the further ahead you get! Chrono your gateways!
Generally speaking, I lump terran openings into 2 categories, marine openers and marauder openers. I always gas steal vs. terran unless he hasn't taken his first gas yet (marine opener.) If I spot one marine and then tech lab with my probe I assume marauders. If I pin him on a marine opener I poke with my first zealot and stalker. If I see a CC I expand before adding gates. If I see bunkers I go 2gate robo and get out an obs to further react (he is probably teching). If I smell some kind of mass marine aggression/allin I chrono out more stuff to defend. If I spot the quick tech lab I don't poke (conc shell means free units for terran). I leave my stalker around my mineral line in case he gets a reaper out. I typically 3gate expo depending on how easily defended the expo is. Zealots and sentries and a couple stalkers should be all you need against a 3rax stim timing assuming good sentry usage. If he hasn't pushed by that window he is probably getting medivacs out, prepare for drops and you should be golden. When going 3gate expo make your robo a quick priority after plopping the nexus down as you still need to actively monitor terran during this period, you may even want hallucination if you are feeling real suspicious. As long as you get good with forcefields you should be able to hold an expansion against any sort of aggressive 3rax one base push. Glhf. I give credit for my ideas to arcanefrost, his PvT overview is my source for this reasoning.
On April 26 2011 03:52 Gooey wrote: MMM is marine marauder medivac, and only 1 person so far has mentioned medivacs. There are two different forms of 1 base MMM from terran:
They can do a 2 rax MMM into expo with a double medivac drop with marines (this is what select does a lot, and you can find replays of him doing this from MLG dallas on their website).
There is also a style Sjow used a lot against toss who went robo before expanding, which is a 3 rax double medivac one base play. With this style, you basically get all of your 2 base infrastructure before expanding (sort of like 3 gate robo from protoss). These types of openings are pretty taxing to deal with, but can be held. It gives me the most problems on close air metal/shattered, where positions really shine. The giveaways before any obs scouting will be a heavier presence and only 2 marauders (usually starts with the 1 marine 2 marauder poke, and then gas is saved for factory/star into vacs after this). The best way to deal with it is to drop your expansion when possible and get up to 4 warpgates and not make from your robo, other than your observer (if you had gone for a 2-3 gate robo). If you haven't decided to go robo yet, skip it for now. Gateway units will keep you mobile and with stim timing increased by 30 seconds, you will have enough time to get units out. Keep your zealots and sentries at the front of your base, and leave 3-4 stalkers in the back to snipe and double-pronged attack in the form of their fast medivacs. Once you hold the pressure, or outright deflect it, you are safe to tech to whatever you like from here, be it upgrades, robo, stargate, or templar tech.
In short, expand, stay on lots of gateway units, and spread out! Don't let dropships get easy access to your base! (If they are clumping in a ball and 1 a'ing you, then you should be able to strait up win with proper FF to cut their army in half). Remember to expand, and the longer they wait, the further ahead you get! Chrono your gateways!
Is it really that safe to expand though? Say I got 2gate robo or 3gate expand and their stim MMM attack comes around 8:00, I feel like their attacks comes at a time that I'm most vulnerable (expansion prob started around 6:00 done around 7:30-8:00). I suppose a 1-gate expand could do the trick if you get units and a robo quick enough, however. I feel like the times I get most crushed by this is the times that I go for the expansion off 2-gate robo or 3-gate and just as I'm saturating my natural expansion the attack comes and I'm short on units. I suppose focusing on unit production instead of probe production until the attack dies down could solve a lot of problems with this, however.
Providing that you are doing a standard 2 base PvT build; if he does not match your base count on scouting, you can expect an all-in of some sort. As to what sort, presence of marauders is a tell: don't expect cloaked banshees or mass marines anytime soon.
In the event of a bio push, you can delay it for quite a bit with forcefields at their ramp. The longer you are on 2 base with them at only 1, the easier it will be to stop the push.
EPT
