|
Most of us know and accept that in the early game in each match up, there's a certain rock paper scissor effect in how you open as opposed to your opponent. It is important, in my opinion, to understand how your opening will effect your mid game; be it how far/ahead you are or can get, how you transition, but most importantly-How can you cope effectively if you open paper and your opponent opens scissors.
I don't think anyone, especially myself, could answer this question as well as the entire TL community can; and it is my goal that with this thread the average masters gamer will be able to open in an unlucky way, but still have a great chance at wining the game.
Matchup by matchup, lets identify the Rock Paper Scissor dynamic along with positing to deal when you get unlucky. I've started by including some on my limited ZvZ knowledge, which I will yield to a superior wisdom (even though I present my contribution as if everything I say is fact, I understand that its probably not complete, or anywhere close to one hundred percent correct).
PvP
+ Show Spoiler +
PvT
+ Show Spoiler +
PvZ
+ Show Spoiler +
TvP
+ Show Spoiler +
TvT
+ Show Spoiler +
TvZ
+ Show Spoiler +
ZvP
+ Show Spoiler +
ZvT
+ Show Spoiler +
ZvZ
+ Show Spoiler +
15 Hatch
Countered by: Early pool
Deal with it by: Cancel hatch once your Overlord scout see the lings coming, build a spincrawler close to your mineral line, and try your best to micro your drones (looking for a surround and dancing).
14 Gas/14 Pool
Countered by: 15 Hatch
Deal with it by: Your economically behind, but you certainly don't have to go all in. At the same time remember that just because someone opens 15 hatch doesn't mean that they are going to be playing passively for 20 minutes, it often means the opposite- that they were taking the risk for a faster and harder timing push. I reccomend playing cautiously while being active with your ling as scouts. Squeezing out a couple extra drones, while sniping a few of theirs will close the gap.
Early Pool
Countered by: 14 Gas/14 Pool
Deal with it by: Once their ling speed gets up, you'll have a really hard time defending or attacking effectively; but until they'll have 100/100 resources locked up in that upgrade as well as resources in drones. Until opening 14/14 vs a 15 hatch, you have to do critical damage before they can get speedlings out. Your all in, micro your best and hope kill of something close.
responses:
On April 07 2011 09:41 Volka wrote:
I don't like this. Starcraft is NOT rock paper scissors.
You can get away with something even if it it's "counterd" by something else, if you can macro/micro better, if you have better timings, a better strategy, building placement, etc. It's more complicated.
that's the hole point of the thread to overcome the rock paper scissor aspect of the early game. Better mechanics will aways make you a better player and I agree with you that it should be a (new) player's first priotity in there path of improvement should be to improve their mechanics.
Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "rock paper scissors" because it implies an inevitability, but again, I want this to be a resource for people to understand that starcraft is alot more than rock paper scissors, and to serve as a tool for understanding how the better player will win most often.
On April 07 2011 10:05 lorkac wrote:
11pool has better creates the most larva possible be it for Econ or for zerglings within the first I think 7-8 minutes of the game. If your opponent opts to 14 hatch, go all in. If he opts to get speed, just drone up and expand.
The build essentially delays both the hatch and the gas for an early larva lead be it for Econ or for zerglings.
I think your talking about 11 pool/18 hatch type build, which is totally legitimate. For the purposes of this thread i think i can slot it under the 14gas/14pool category since they accomplish essentially the same thing. But you make a good point, so I'll revise my ZvZ contribution to that.
|
Not every build order is as clear cut as solid rock, paper scissors. For example what do you mean by "early pool?" how early?
I use a 13 gas / 12 pool build and it counters 15 hatch, early pool (7 - 11 pools), and is even with 14 pool builds. It sometimes loses to 6 pool+2 spine crawler rush builds.
|
zvz does but most of the other matchups dont really have a rock paper sizors aspect to them.
|
PvP
4 Gate
Countered: 4 gate
Deal with it by:micro better
opening other then 4 gate
Countered: 4 gate
Deal with it by: select your units press A and then click the ground somewhere in the enemy base
But really, i don't think most match ups have a "rock paper scissor aspect other then ZvZ.
At least for PvT and PvZ i have a pretty "standard" opening that can be changed if needed and counter about anything if played well.
|
On April 07 2011 07:43 burn man wrote:
zvz does but most of the other matchups dont really have a rock paper sizors aspect to them.
PvP is a bit weird.
Blink Stalkers > Stargate > Robo > Gateway > Stargate
It's not really perfectly rock paper scissors (because there's 4 and some tech is totally better than others, for example, blink stalkers), but it's somewhat like that.
|
Early pool clearly means anything before 14. Mostly people won't bother with 11-13 pools, it's 10 or earlier.
This is a good post for noobs but anyone who has played more than 50 games will know whats up for their race at least.
I would argue that ZvP, 3gate sentry expand is rock.
|
I don't like this. Starcraft is NOT rock paper scissors.
You can get away with something even if it it's "counterd" by something else, if you can macro/micro better, if you have better timings, a better strategy, building placement, etc. It's more complicated.
|
11pool has better creates the most larva possible be it for Econ or for zerglings within the first I think 7-8 minutes of the game. If your opponent opts to 14 hatch, go all in. If he opts to get speed, just drone up and expand.
The build essentially delays both the hatch and the gas for an early larva lead be it for Econ or for zerglings.
|
On April 07 2011 09:41 Volka wrote:
I don't like this. Starcraft is NOT rock paper scissors.
You can get away with something even if it it's "counterd" by something else, if you can macro/micro better, if you have better timings, a better strategy, building placement, etc. It's more complicated.
Your statement is too generalized. Of course if you can micro/macro better than you're opponent you will win, but guess what, around the top level, or maybe even the common player on ladder, everyones got the same micro/macro skills.
That's why build order decision making is so important. I'm a smart guy, so I'll shed some knowledge on PvT.
You're build should be a flow chart with CRUCIAL scout timings. These scout timings are checkpoints that are usually easy to check, and if you arent an idiot you wont lose the scv before you check it.
You scout your opponent getting 1 gas. Its either a 4 gate or a 1 gate FE.
Go 1 rax FE + tech. Why? If toss FE, your FE comes faster.
If toss 4 gates, you can tell this easily by keeping an scv outside his base, or checking the vicinity for proxy pylons, or scanning his base so that it can cover both pylons, or scan the pylon in the corner of his base, cuz hes prolly hiding shit there. your tank comes out the moment the 4 gate hits, and if you know its coming you will have scvs ready for repair just in time.
if toss 1 gate FE's, lift off the OC into your natural and do a marine tank stim timing push. Marine tank > toss without collosus.
So no matter what toss does, if its a 4 gate or a 1 gate FE, you have already countered it.
Lets say protoss goes 2 gas. What is terran's best response? 2 rax (C, X) FE. Standard opening. A protoss 2 rax gives him a slew of 1 base all in strats such as 3 gate void, dts, warp prism 4 gate. Stimmed bio deals with all of that adequetly. (esp if you have an ebay for emergency turrets around the 7 minute mark, thats also the standard time to start upgrades off a 2 rax (C,X) FE)
If he goes 3gate FE or 2gaterobo, congrats, its a standard game.
Of course, now you're going to say you base your entire game plan vs how many assimilators the protoss builds early....
and I say...why not 
2 rax(C,X) FE and 1 rax FE fast tech are all very powerful openings that terrans should master.
How this relates to opening paper if you opponent opens scissors.
TLDR: Don't open paper if you dont have to. Scout important bench marks, and do builds that can survive in those ambiguous situations described above.
|
PVZ
4 warpgate (1 gas)
countered by: roaches and spines
2 gate
countered by: pool first or early spines
2 stargate
countered by: evo or roaches according to Monidragon
3 gate expand
countered by: roach all in or fast third
There is not RPS aspect to others but I'm assuming you are doing this so when someone scouts something they don't do something stupid like 14h against a 2 gate
|
Thinking in a rock paper scissors dynamic will make you play as if that's the case, similarly thinking in a manner as how to best optimize a situation will do so. Builds that cannot handle all other possible openings won't stick around much and be considered if anything cheesy or allin-ish. The idea of a rock paper scissors opening I think is flawed simply because a good build won't have a "counter." Consider your example of 15 hatch vs early pool. If a 15 hatch player understands that there is a weakness to early pool timings he will drone scout on 9 and upon scouting an early pool put down his own asap or as soon as he deems necessary. He'll cancel his hatch once the lings arrive or before it finishes and win. Any really early ling aggression can be dealt with due to your higher drone count and micro. You yourself account for this, so i guess I don't really understand how you can consider this. Do you think canceling puts you at a disadvantage? Otherwise I don't understand the analogy
In other words I think this mentality is flawed because it gives no room to account for players using an opening to adapt to the situation. A rock cannot become a loose form of paper or something in that sense. Of course if you foolishly stick to your 15 hatch, then yes I agree with your idea.
But I think it vital for players to adapt and not commit to such hard and fast build orders/openings and rather play flexibly and reserve options and variations
|
zvp zvt shouldnt be rock paper scissors if you are scouting well imo. but if you are blind and unlucky then maybe it could fall under such a category.
|
Is this considering builds that lean to the "cheesier" side of things? I ask because ZvP I almost ALWAYS open 7pool or 9pool to force a 1-base forge or easy victory, but I don't think there's a real rock paper scissors to this because from there they can do anything, really.
|
3 rax allin beats 16 nexus
6 pool beats 16 nexus
16 nexus beats 1 rax fe
the point is cheese hard counters other cheese and standard play is designed to weed out these RPS vulnerabilities.
|
I dont think there is rock-paper-scissors in any protoss matchup, unless you count blind allins and hope opponent is doing some strat that isnt countering it. But in standard solid strategies you are always even or atleast almost even against anybuild.
|
@terranist none of the builds you mentioned except 6 pool is cheese..
also.
3 rax I believe can be defended with a 16 nexus if timed correctly
6 pool will generally lose to a 16 nexus player as they can afford to lose maybe half their probes to defend and if they respond with proper walling and initial pylon placement (read: knowing the weakness of an early pool timing), they'll generally take an easy win.
|
On April 07 2011 07:49 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 07:43 burn man wrote:
zvz does but most of the other matchups dont really have a rock paper sizors aspect to them. PvP is a bit weird. Blink Stalkers > Stargate > Robo > Gateway > Stargate It's not really perfectly rock paper scissors (because there's 4 and some tech is totally better than others, for example, blink stalkers), but it's somewhat like that.
Thats so wrong, robo = blinkstalkers > gateway(who would do just gateway units?), stargate units are just crap and loses to everything.
Seems like whole thread is someone posting their opinions which are totally wrong(atleast in different skill levels), completely useless.
|
I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is intended to be a compilation of knowledge, not a debate.
|
I'd suggest trying to get the thread renamed, as otherwise this is a lot cause. Rock/paper/scissors is too absolute, and I'm going to bet many people are also going to fail to realise this thread only concerns the very early game. Something along the lines of: "[D] Build order losses - can game be recovered?"
Two I can think of:
PvZ: Early forge openings vs hatch first
ZvZ: ~9-10 pool vs hatch first
|
On April 08 2011 09:09 Hairy wrote:
I'd suggest trying to get the thread renamed, as otherwise this is a lot cause. Rock/paper/scissors is too absolute, and I'm going to bet many people are also going to fail to realise this thread only concerns the very early game. Something along the lines of: "[D] Build order losses - can game be recovered?"
Two I can think of:
PvZ: Early forge openings vs hatch first
ZvZ: ~9-10 pool vs hatch first
ya at this point id be down for a mod to change the name to whatever they think would be appropriate
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
