EPTScouting 6 pool last on a 4 player map - Page 3
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Tracedragon
United States948 Posts
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
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reddog1999
United States143 Posts
That's just my 2 cents, but you really should do a search because i'm pretty sure defending against a 6 pool has been being done since 1998. | ||
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elliminist
Japan121 Posts
On March 28 2011 03:14 Noxie wrote: Keep in mind you shouldnt get 6 pooled on 4 player maps that much.. they have to know where your base is for it to be effective. Watch the replay.. how did he find you? Did you miss his drone scout? +1 | ||
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On March 26 2011 06:30 Pwnographics wrote: Run your probes in circles for a while, try snipe a zergling - wait for your allies to help clear it up. if he drones you should lose | ||
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
(E.g., if 6 zerglings hatch and go right away to you, that's the only time when you can't wall. During those cases, keep mining with probes. As I've suggested, and as HuK has done for instant 6 pool, micro with 2 groups of probes, and you can kill off all zerglings without losing a probe due to the mining mechanics). | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On March 28 2011 11:37 ScythedBlade wrote: Guys, if he 6 pools, and you scout him, immediately cut probes and build a forge and wall yourself in. The most dangerous is when he 6 pools and he sends 6 zerglings right away. If you scout him last, you should have enough time to wall it off. (E.g., if 6 zerglings hatch and go right away to you, that's the only time when you can't wall. During those cases, keep mining with probes. As I've suggested, and as HuK has done for instant 6 pool, micro with 2 groups of probes, and you can kill off all zerglings without losing a probe due to the mining mechanics). did ya read OP? he talking about when 6pool is scouted last. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
OP just upload some replays and we'll tell you what you did wrong/right, a good bunch of posters here didn't even read your OP, much less the title of this thread. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On March 28 2011 00:10 scythe755 wrote: Is it that I suck? Or is it that you are simply too ignorant to make an intelligent comment on the matter, just like most people. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2267582318 Here is a 3.3k master (250 bonus pool, matched against 3.6k masters) having a lot of success exclusively doing 6/7 pool on ladder. If you play above that level (maybe you are a top 200 player?) then I accept that people like me just suck and need to L2P. In which case please bestow upon us your wisdom. I personally play at ~3.3-3.5k master level on NA. So it's perfectly reasonable that I am just a scrub. I've seen replays where tip-top-level pro players lost to a 6 pool *by responding poorly*, so I'm assuming you're not exempt. The fact of the matter is that 6pool only wins if the zerg massively outplays their opponent, or their opponent responds poorly. I spent quite a lot of time practicing with partners who were significantly better than me figuring out that it's perfectly possible to hold a 6pool with a standard 13 gate, even if you don't scout them until the lings are already on the way (in all of the test games I didn't actually deviate from my standard build until the lings got to my base). Can you say the same? I'm guessing not, because the "power of the 6 pool" is an illusion that falls apart once you know exactly what to do, and since then, I haven't lost to a single 6pool other than one or two cases where I flat out fucked up horribly somehow. Post a rep or two of you losing to a 6pool, and I guarantee I can tell you exactly what you did wrong, and how to better defend it in the future, even if you don't scout it early. If you're willing to take advice from a ~2k diamond who obviously has spent more time researching and practicing this specific situation than you have, that is. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
I'm only about halfway through, but so far, I haven't seen a *single* protoss loss that wasn't completely 100% avoidable, where the protoss player fucked up in some way. And I'm not talking minor fuckups here, but really big ones, like trying to wall off but not making the wall zergling tight, walling with 2 gateways, or trying to fight with probes, but not bringing enough, and not fighting in the open. Personally, I don't expect to see any losses at all where the protoss responded well and still lost, even if they don't wall off. And that's despite the fact that this 6pooler is *way* better at doing it than most. He does some really smart things even if the inital waves don't break through, and very nearly beat KiwiKaki with one of those tactics. ***EDIT*** After spending a few hours going through the rest of the protoss replays in that pack (I wasn't anywhere near half-done, the scrollbar is pretty horked on large numbers of replays, and there were a lot more than it led me to believe), I have a few things to say: #1: I'm absolutely shocked at the number of master-level protoss players who simply don't know how to respond appropriately to a 6 pool. This was a really big issue way back when zealot build time was increased, and all protoss players were freaking out about being able to hold off early rushes. That's when I did my own testing, and frankly I'm flabbergasted that there are master-level players who didn't do the same. #2: Every single loss in this replay pack was avoidable simply by knowing what to do and executing well. If you're playing against somebody who has 6pooled hundreds of times (there were 250 replays total in that pack, and I'm assuming those aren't *all* of his 6pools), someone who knows all the ins and outs of all the possible responses, how to exploit weaknesses, what, when, why, and how to attack, and who has impeccable micro because of all those things, and you haven't even practiced a response enough to know how to handle it, then you're probably going to lose. And frankly, I think that's perfectly fine. If you can't be bothered enough to spend 10 or 15 games practicing and honing your response, then you *deserve* to lose when he outplays you. While watching that ridiculous number of replays, I started putting together a list of common mistakes, and things *not* to do, and had planned on adding explanatory comments on each one, but frankly, I've already spent a lot more time on this than I should have, and I have work to do. But here's the list: Things not to do against a a 6pool: DO NOT: Skimp on pulling probes for defense, especially before your first zealot is out Wallin with only gateways. Wallin with gate+forge without planning how you're going to either rewall or at least protect the cannon when the wall breaks. (and it *WILL* break, usually before the cannon is complete. Forget your 2nd pylon Stop building probes Attack with 6-8 probes expecting them to do anything useful against 6 lings Leave zealots or cannons unprotected. Zerglings will kill them quite quickly Hastily throw down a forge if you don't see it coming until lings arrive in your base Let a single pylon powering your gateway go down uncontested Try to block a 1 grid choke with a zealot and forget hold position Forge first after seeing the 6pool, and fail to wallof completely or block the gap with probes Forge-first expand and fail to put your first cannon down on time PUT ONE CANNON DOWN AND ASSUME YOU'VE WON | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-199262.jpg) Well, right up to the point where he leaves his base defenseless and lings run by and start killing shit, that is. Easily solved by re-choking and leaving a zealot behind to hold it. Delaying with probes until your first zealot is pretty safe IMO, but this seems quite a bit safer. | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On March 29 2011 13:41 AGIANTSMURF wrote: if you scout it and you dont have to cannon your ramp, you have to wall it off, put your second pylon next to your nexus, and put a pylon NEXT TO YOUR NEXUS. your going to have to sacrifice the gateway, forge and pylon but its better then losing the game. I honestly wonder why I even bother with all these 6pool threads. As I've said approximately 3,254,981 times now in the various threads, you do *not* have to wall off. It is perfectly possible to hold by delaying with probes until your chronoed zealot comes out. And frankly, doing it that way is probably a whole hell of a lot safer and more stable than sacrificing every building you made in the early game. You know that 7pool can feint and turn into a decently economic build, right? Which they will absolutely do if you wall off? At which point you've sacrificed so many buildings that you're going to be WAAAAY behind? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
no, this post is -1. 6 pool is best on most 4 player maps like metal, ST, SP etc. You only need to scout 2 locations, not 3... the overlord covers one, and a drone covers the other. Posts like this are why I continue to 6pool with high success whenever I decide to. You guys should also heed skrag's advice. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
I decided to give the defense shown in that KiwiKaki replay a shot, and despite the fact that I screwed it up pretty badly, not canceling the pylon block in time, and mismicroing the first zealot in the choke horribly, it was the easiest win I've ever had against a 6pool (and I almost never lose to it). When one of the two gateways fell, 2 zealots + probes were more than enough to keep the lings from ever getting inside my base, and because I hadn't spent money on a forge and cannons, I was immediately able to go kill him once the lings were held off. So there you have it. Watch that KiwiKaki replay, and just do that. Even if you don't execute it perfectly, it seems super-stable. | ||
gdalam
104 Posts
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oNSarcasm
104 Posts
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On March 31 2011 03:17 oNSarcasm wrote: Yea i just send another scout if they're not at the first position. The 6 pool from the last base i scouted happened to me once and since then i've been sending a 2nd scout after checking the first base, even if they didn't six pool the 1 probe doesn't do enough to stall out any BO your doing enough to majorly change the game. That's a lotta wasted early potential minerals, simply to scout for a build that's pretty easy to stop even if you don't scout it... It might not stall your BO much, but every unnecessary and avoidable stall is one you should be working hard to get rid of, especially in the first few minutes, where small mistakes and delays can compound over the entire game, and this is one of those. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
keep in mind overlords can see further than buildings. for any mid level players this can be a pain, because the "6 pooler" probably doesnt care about scouting. and to reply to the person saying 10 pylon 10 gate. your suggesting to pool money blindly on every 4 player map where you dont scout them at close spawns? the response i find best is to instantly cut probes, cancel everything except your gate and then drop a forge. in terms of bulking up your wall if you are having to use a pylon, remember that cybercores have more hp for the same cost as gateways | ||
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