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Sup TL im a high masters (sometimes top 200) Terran player with a fun opening here designed to make zergys break their keyboards while u laugh hysterically. Most openings against zerg try to catch them with thier pants down with some big timing push, this build is designed to constantly be on top of the zerg so that u can catch them at multiple timings with thier pants down.
Here are my stats for my two accounts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1465649/1/tGPookie/
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/526429/1/tGBertLegend/
This is actually a variation of my old build which your are free to look at if you like. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164267
The build is fairly simple but may be difficult to execute if you dont have a decent amount of apm to micro two separate attacks and react quickly as well as macro, youve been warned.
Overview
standard 10 supply depot
make refinery at 150 minerals
make barracks at 13 supply scout zergy with scv
pump marines constantly from barracks
make starport after factory and make hellion from factory to roast lings and scout
make medivac and hit main with 6 marines and hellion dont lose these units!
throw down Command center and armory for a thor
once thor is building make second medivac and keep pumping marines
send thor ~6 scvs some marines and the medivac to attack natural while simultaneously hitting the main with your first drop
inflict massive damage and lift Thor and any units alive in main into the medivac before they die.
You should make a banshee incase of counter attacks and to attack his base if you managed to kill off his queens which generally happens in my replays.
This build is most effective against the standard FEs that you will see in high masters play, its somewhat weak against a six pool since your walling off a bit late but i cant remember the last time i was 4 or six pooled in masters. If your opponent goes fast roach warren it would be wise to delay your expo a bit so u can build a bunker at your wall off, if he hits with roaches you can leave some marines behind in the bunker and still attack his main. This build allows you to get a full read of your opponents tech path and unit composition allowing you to follow up with the appropriate counters, if hes going ling baneling muta keep making thors and get blue flame hellions and hit him again when blue flame is done. if hes going roach baneling then you can either go heavy on the banshees and deny him a third while getting your own third or go tank marine. Only downside to this build is that your expansion is always later than the zergs so if by some fail you dont do any damage you may be behind economically, but ive seen if the zerg has enough units to hold all this off then he isnt that far ahead in economy anyways. you really have to see this in action to realize how annoying, devastating, and cost effective it can be, Enjoy :o)
Pookie Build vs Mystic
Pookie Build vs Gowser
Pookie Build vs coLRyze
Pookie Build Vs vVv Rigid
Pookie Build Vs NiteRaider
Pookie Build vs Cakez
Pookie Build vs InflowLooky
Pookie Build Vs Fatallis
Pookie Build Vs Fatallis 2
Pookie Build vs Kej
Pookie Build vs Ikki
Pookie Build vs Skinky
Pookie build vs Mass
Pookie Build Vs fab Integral (Longer Game)
Pookie Build vs Wonderbread (early Roaches)
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On March 22 2011 22:04 Pookie Monster wrote:
Overview
standard 10 supply depot
make refinery at 150 gas ??????
make barracks at 13 supply scout zergy with scv
pump marines constantly from barracks
make starport after factory and make hellion from factory to roast lings and scout
make medivac and hit main with 6 marines and hellion dont lose these units!
throw down Command center and armory for a thor
once thor is building make second medivac and keep pumping marines
send thor ~6 scvs some marines and the medivac to attack natural while simultaneously hitting the main with your first drop
inflict massive damage and lift Thor and any units alive in main into the medivac before they die.
You should make a banshee incase of counter attacks and to attack his base if you managed to kill off his queens which generally happens in my replays.
edit: watched a replay, you mean 150 minerals.
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On March 22 2011 22:33 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 22:04 Pookie Monster wrote:
Overview
standard 10 supply depot
make refinery at 150 gas ??????
make barracks at 13 supply scout zergy with scv
pump marines constantly from barracks
make starport after factory and make hellion from factory to roast lings and scout
make medivac and hit main with 6 marines and hellion dont lose these units!
throw down Command center and armory for a thor
once thor is building make second medivac and keep pumping marines
send thor ~6 scvs some marines and the medivac to attack natural while simultaneously hitting the main with your first drop
inflict massive damage and lift Thor and any units alive in main into the medivac before they die.
You should make a banshee incase of counter attacks and to attack his base if you managed to kill off his queens which generally happens in my replays.
edit: watched a replay, you mean 150 minerals.
lol thanks dunno how i didnt see that
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On March 22 2011 22:47 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 22:33 spbelky wrote:On March 22 2011 22:04 Pookie Monster wrote:
Overview
standard 10 supply depot
make refinery at 150 gas ??????
make barracks at 13 supply scout zergy with scv
pump marines constantly from barracks
make starport after factory and make hellion from factory to roast lings and scout
make medivac and hit main with 6 marines and hellion dont lose these units!
throw down Command center and armory for a thor
once thor is building make second medivac and keep pumping marines
send thor ~6 scvs some marines and the medivac to attack natural while simultaneously hitting the main with your first drop
inflict massive damage and lift Thor and any units alive in main into the medivac before they die.
You should make a banshee incase of counter attacks and to attack his base if you managed to kill off his queens which generally happens in my replays.
edit: watched a replay, you mean 150 minerals. lol thanks dunno how i didnt see that
I like the build watched the replay certainly looking to try this out, on another note. That 150 gas comment made me spit out/choke on my coffee
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Seems like a fun and good build that needs good micro, but how does it show vs defencive Roaches with creep-linked bases ? It seems to me a zerg can hold it off easy with a handful of roaches
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On March 22 2011 23:12 Dymeter wrote:
Seems like a fun and good build that needs good micro, but how does it show vs defencive Roaches with creep-linked bases ? It seems to me a zerg can hold it off easy with a handful of roaches
how many roaches is a "handful"? inflow looky had roaches out and still suffered alot of damage i didnt even do the thor medivac thing that game i just made a faster banshee, this build is flexible to deal with different openings with zerg. and hits pretty damn fast.
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Haven't seen it yet, or tried it, but on paper this does seem to fit my likings very well. The possibilities of that thor and marine/hellion drop they have to choose which one. Both are very capable of lifting and running and sniping a queen to further fuel your lead.
Definitly going to try this out.
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so basically you're build is supposed to be strong against people who either: don't scout, or don't know how to make speedlings and extra queens? my standard zvt strat if it permits:
15hatch
16gas (pull 2 off @ 100)
16pool (spd/2queens when pool finishes/4lings)
this allows for quick spd, fast queens so i can get 2 quick tumors thus i gain map control and continue it thru crepe spreading.
also, i get a 3rd queen @ 30~ for transfuses/tumors
this build would shatter in flames against me.
edit: bluewaffle.643 3860masters z haven't laddered in like 4days.
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Going to try this... I need a change in my TvZ.
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On March 23 2011 00:01 majestouch wrote:
so basically you're build is supposed to be strong against people who either: don't scout, or don't know how to make speedlings and extra queens? my standard zvt strat if it permits:
15hatch
16gas (pull 2 off @ 100)
16pool (spd/2queens when pool finishes/4lings)
this allows for quick spd, fast queens so i can get 2 quick tumors thus i gain map control and continue it thru crepe spreading.
also, i get a 3rd queen @ 30~ for transfuses/tumors
this build would shatter in flames against me.
edit: bluewaffle.643 3860masters z haven't laddered in like 4days.
i can tell you havent watched the replays vVvRigid and Fatallis did about what your describing and was holding thier own pretty well but kinda got roflstomped by my blue flame hellion follow-up, this build is NOT an auto win but is a great opening to put pressure on the zerg and see exactly what hes doing. you cant unmake lings, so once ive seen uve commited to a large ling army im def going to push u with blue flame hellion/thor before u take your third and muster a strong tech switch to roaches or get a high muta count.
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I think the focal point of this build is that it gets in the zergs face very quickly, not allowing them to drone super hard, and because you are actively poking at the zergs base, you will get valuable information about their army composition / tech structures / lair timing. The interesting part to me is that with the unit composition of marine/hellion/medivac early, in to marine/thor/medivac, you really discourage the zerg from getting mutas. However, add in 1 or 2 banshees, and the zerg's only anti air is their queen, giving you map control. When faced with a few banshees (no over commitment, just 2 in order to be annoying), the zerg can either a) stay pinned in their base where they have queens/spores, or b) build units that can kill the banshees (hydra/spire/infestation tech) and I don't think the zerg can support such a heavy tech path, build a formidable army, AND take their third in a timely fashion. They have to give up something somewhere, but the more I think about it, infestors would do very well against this... and I don't think the majority of zergs are used to using infestors right now.
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On March 23 2011 01:11 spbelky wrote:
I think the focal point of this build is that it gets in the zergs face very quickly, not allowing them to drone super hard, and because you are actively poking at the zergs base, you will get valuable information about their army composition / tech structures / lair timing. The interesting part to me is that with the unit composition of marine/hellion/medivac early, in to marine/thor/medivac, you really discourage the zerg from getting mutas. However, add in 1 or 2 banshees, and the zerg's only anti air is their queen, giving you map control. When faced with a few banshees (no over commitment, just 2 in order to be annoying), the zerg can either a) stay pinned in their base where they have queens/spores, or b) build units that can kill the banshees (hydra/spire/infestation tech) and I don't think the zerg can support such a heavy tech path, build a formidable army, AND take their third in a timely fashion. They have to give up something somewhere, but the more I think about it, infestors would do very well against this... and I don't think the majority of zergs are used to using infestors right now.
i was thinking about what i would do if i were a zerg dealing with this and infestors def came to mind. but im sure zergs could point out some good reasons not have infestors that early, they only have so much gas afterall they would have to sacrifice something somewhere and they have no ability to put any pressure on the terran with early infestors.
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[QUOTE]On March 23 2011 00:01 majestouch wrote:
so basically you're build is supposed to be strong against people who either: don't scout, or don't know how to make speedlings and extra queens?
What did your post contribute to this thread?
@ OP: I like the look of this build (anything but painfully boring 2 base marine/tank in TvZ is welcome to see). Do your hellions give you a good D against early bling busts, or have you had any trouble wih those? In general, what Z builds do you feel give yours trouble?
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[QUOTE]On March 23 2011 01:53 Snaphoo wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 23 2011 00:01 majestouch wrote:
so basically you're build is supposed to be strong against people who either: don't scout, or don't know how to make speedlings and extra queens?
What did your post contribute to this thread?
@ OP: I like the look of this build (anything but painfully boring 2 base marine/tank in TvZ is welcome to see). Do your hellions give you a good D against early bling busts, or have you had any trouble wih those? In general, what Z builds do you feel give yours trouble?[/QUOTE]
i just started using this build over the last week so to be honest i havent yet expereinced everything that the zerg can throw at me, i was working on a FE build for awhile and was just getting owned, i dont feel comfortable doing an FE against zerg now so i looked over my old build and improved upon it, im very good at scouting early bling busts but they are sooooo rare in masters its not really worth mentioning since i already have a barracks and factory for my wall its just a matter of strengthening the depo vs an EARLY bling bust a bunker is usually enough, the most trouble i think ive had is a large amount of roaches early and just general good troop movement and defense by the zerg ive only lost once since doing this build though...the guy held off my harrass with lots of ling roach and then went ling, roach, hydra. i literally only lost that game because i didnt pull any scvs at all to repair my 5 thors he won that decisive battle with only 4 hydras left and proceeded to take a fourth and go broodlords i scouted poorly and expanded late.
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the ponyo build!!!
make marines.
.....
.....
win
.....
lose
.....
leave
.....
repeat
....
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm definatly gonna try this out. Even though i guess it might be to much micro for me to handle atm (plat), it's doing things like this that will help me inprove my micro so thanks
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sounsd alright, but it also sounds like if the zerg just goes speedlings he can entirely hold off your attack with relative ease.
might be a good idea on maps with some abusable terrain (like drop thor between gas + minerals or w/e to help block)
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This is a very beautiful pressure/harass !!! I am at work and unable to watch those replays, but I would like to know: What ~time typically does the first drop come, and what time after does the push into the Nat come? I'm working out timings in my head, and so far via description can gather the drop comes around 7:00 and the push around 9:00??
A solid opening for Terran sacrificing very little to force the Zerg to do a lot... Low risk, I'd say! 
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On March 23 2011 02:41 PhiliBiRD wrote:
sounsd alright, but it also sounds like if the zerg just goes speedlings he can entirely hold off your attack with relative ease.
might be a good idea on maps with some abusable terrain (like drop thor between gas + minerals or w/e to help block)
i think the game vs rigid is the best example of what i do when the zerg gets mass speedling
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On March 23 2011 02:58 RukKus wrote:This is a very beautiful pressure/harass !!! I am at work and unable to watch those replays, but I would like to know: What ~time typically does the first drop come, and what time after does the push into the Nat come? I'm working out timings in my head, and so far via description can gather the drop comes around 7:00 and the push around 9:00?? A solid opening for Terran sacrificing very little to force the Zerg to do a lot... Low risk, I'd say!
your fairly correct in your timings the drop actually when done perfect comes at like ~640 especially on close air positions the Thor is Usually knocking on thier front door at about 9 minutes im on a roll with this build today ill add some more reps
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i used it once and failed because it was my first game of the day and my multitasking wasnt up to speed, so i lost some units needlessly, and then i didnt macro. second round though worked great, and his response was mass roach, so i just went mass tank with a few thor/mariners. nomnom tanks vs roaches ^_^
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I'm sorry but this looks the same as a 1/1/1 into mech/bio ball...
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On March 23 2011 05:57 Mad_Mardigon wrote:
I'm sorry but this looks the same as a 1/1/1 into mech/bio ball...
your sorry? what a useless comment, it is a 1/1/1 into biomech build but what your making out of those 1/1/1 structures and doing with them is what the strategy is about and u dont actually have to go bio mech you can go pure mech if you like. i beat skinky and a think a few other players with banshee hellion thor and only a few measely marines not worth mentioning.
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On March 23 2011 06:04 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:57 Mad_Mardigon wrote:
I'm sorry but this looks the same as a 1/1/1 into mech/bio ball... your sorry? what a useless comment, it is a 1/1/1 into biomech build but what your making out of those 1/1/1 structures and doing with them is what the strategy is about and u dont actually have to go bio mech you can go pure mech if you like. i beat skinky and a think a few other players with banshee hellion thor and only a few measely marines not worth mentioning.
My point is that any good(even semi-good) terran player that uses a 1/1/1 build can pull this off if it is a counter to whatever the other player is doing...
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Did we play today on cross metal? some guy did the exact same thing to me.
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On March 23 2011 06:09 Mad_Mardigon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 06:04 Pookie Monster wrote:On March 23 2011 05:57 Mad_Mardigon wrote:
I'm sorry but this looks the same as a 1/1/1 into mech/bio ball... your sorry? what a useless comment, it is a 1/1/1 into biomech build but what your making out of those 1/1/1 structures and doing with them is what the strategy is about and u dont actually have to go bio mech you can go pure mech if you like. i beat skinky and a think a few other players with banshee hellion thor and only a few measely marines not worth mentioning. My point is that any good(even semi-good) terran player that uses a 1/1/1 build can pull this off if it is a counter to whatever the other player is doing...
lol i never said i was the only person who could pull this off, thats the point of sharing the build with TL, are you bored?
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On March 23 2011 06:15 FortuneSyn wrote:
Did we play today on cross metal? some guy did the exact same thing to me.
yes fortune you handled it very well although i panicked with your roach attack and mess up my drop haha im getting my tech lab on my starport faster now so i can pop out a banshee if i need it since i def have the resources for it
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On March 23 2011 06:15 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 06:09 Mad_Mardigon wrote:On March 23 2011 06:04 Pookie Monster wrote:On March 23 2011 05:57 Mad_Mardigon wrote:
I'm sorry but this looks the same as a 1/1/1 into mech/bio ball... your sorry? what a useless comment, it is a 1/1/1 into biomech build but what your making out of those 1/1/1 structures and doing with them is what the strategy is about and u dont actually have to go bio mech you can go pure mech if you like. i beat skinky and a think a few other players with banshee hellion thor and only a few measely marines not worth mentioning. My point is that any good(even semi-good) terran player that uses a 1/1/1 build can pull this off if it is a counter to whatever the other player is doing... lol i never said i was the only person who could pull this off, thats the point of sharing the build with TL, are you bored?
yeah jus a bit, i just don't feel its necessary to share builds that require fairly decent micro, and macro with lower level players, as they will most likely be unable to pull it off untill they learn the more common builds such as 2rax 1fact, or 3rax expo...
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Haven't watched the reps, just doing dry feeling runs with it. WHen do you get 2nd gas?
edit -- why in the world would you get mad at someone posting a strategy thats not for everyone? Someone can't post a micro intensive strategy for people of higher caliber skill?
Weird. I didn't think TL was to be noob friendly 100%
Double edit -- TL needs more stuff like this, a flowing harassing transition instead of
GET TANKS THORS HELLIONS PFS ANS BCS OFF 4 BASES K
Need more opening gambits, and less 'end game' composition strategies. Just my two cents.
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Thank you for the build, my TvZ has been on fire since I started using it...now if only I could figure out TvP I could be up at 3500 =/.
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This is very similar to what I typically do. However, I usually send in 4 marines + 2 hellions instead. 4 marines with medivac support will own the queen, and i try to keep the hellions on the drones or in the back to help with lings.
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On March 23 2011 06:20 Mad_Mardigon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 06:15 Pookie Monster wrote:On March 23 2011 06:09 Mad_Mardigon wrote:On March 23 2011 06:04 Pookie Monster wrote:On March 23 2011 05:57 Mad_Mardigon wrote:
I'm sorry but this looks the same as a 1/1/1 into mech/bio ball... your sorry? what a useless comment, it is a 1/1/1 into biomech build but what your making out of those 1/1/1 structures and doing with them is what the strategy is about and u dont actually have to go bio mech you can go pure mech if you like. i beat skinky and a think a few other players with banshee hellion thor and only a few measely marines not worth mentioning. My point is that any good(even semi-good) terran player that uses a 1/1/1 build can pull this off if it is a counter to whatever the other player is doing... lol i never said i was the only person who could pull this off, thats the point of sharing the build with TL, are you bored? yeah jus a bit, i just don't feel its necessary to share builds that require fairly decent micro, and macro with lower level players, as they will most likely be unable to pull it off untill they learn the more common builds such as 2rax 1fact, or 3rax expo...
What are you on about man :S None of the posts you've made in this thread have made any sense. Are you saying only low level players come here to read? I'm 3900 and I definitely find this new harassment option interesting.
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On March 23 2011 06:21 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Haven't watched the reps, just doing dry feeling runs with it. WHen do you get 2nd gas?
edit -- why in the world would you get mad at someone posting a strategy thats not for everyone? Someone can't post a micro intensive strategy for people of higher caliber skill?
Weird. I didn't think TL was to be noob friendly 100%
Double edit -- TL needs more stuff like this, a flowing harassing transition instead of
GET TANKS THORS HELLIONS PFS ANS BCS OFF 4 BASES K
Need more opening gambits, and less 'end game' composition strategies. Just my two cents.
i get the second gas at i think 27 supply its right after my third depo i believe
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This is such a finese based build Iove it, 4-0 today. The trick is really in the wearing down the ling numbers, with your first hellion scout if u can get 2-4 thats awesome and then with your drop if you can pick off an ovie here a few lings here, divide and conquer. It really preys on how zergs tend to spread out their ovies.
Then when the repair thors come in having a medivac with that is super helpful because it heals the repair scvs if they decide to go for those first and being able to save your thor and repair for the next wave of thors makes the follow up attack SO deadly, the thor numbers just keep increasing and if they forget about your poke drop ship they lose their main base queen/drones.
Very micro intensive for both sides and I imagine it really screws up the zergs macro (forgetting to inject etc).
Then just in case they havnt cried enough, the banshee comes in right after, its such an amazing combo of punches.
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I did it and as I did the thor drop + marine hellion drop I made a viking instead of a banshee and sniped 2 ols, 2 queens, and about 7 drones.
Lost? 2 marines.
Very strong harass with that thor. They pack such a dirty hit.
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I am a pretty unexperienced player, but you stated that for some early roach pressure you just need some marines and a bunker. Normaly i fail in that situation. In my case a bunker is not always enough for roaches.
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On March 23 2011 08:05 WizardofGGG wrote:
I am a pretty unexperienced player, but you stated that for some early roach pressure you just need some marines and a bunker. Normaly i fail in that situation. In my case a bunker is not always enough for roaches.
All you need is a little advanced warning to pull scvs to repair. Try to be map aware, but if nothing else, leave a marine or scv out by your nat to give you enough time to pull 3-6 scvs to the bunker. That should send the roaches packing.
If one bunker isnt enough, look into your placement, but if the enemy is getting A LOT of roaches and you have a wide ramp, its probably worth it to get another bunker. Whatever keeps you from dying until you get to the banshee part of the build.
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On March 23 2011 08:05 WizardofGGG wrote:
I am a pretty unexperienced player, but you stated that for some early roach pressure you just need some marines and a bunker. Normaly i fail in that situation. In my case a bunker is not always enough for roaches.
are you talking about one base roach? this build is for an expanding zerg, if i scouted no expo and a roach warren i can assure you i would be doing something much different than this
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On March 23 2011 07:54 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I did it and as I did the thor drop + marine hellion drop I made a viking instead of a banshee and sniped 2 ols, 2 queens, and about 7 drones.
Lost? 2 marines.
Very strong harass with that thor. They pack such a dirty hit.
yeah in one of my replays i made a viking too sniping olords is fun
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Loved watching this strat in action! Especially the first game vs Fatallis...his reaction was priceless! Also, I didn't realize you could repair auto-turrets. How annoying and brilliant.
In regards to Fatallis' comment, I don't think this is an all-in build, right? It has a late expansion, but even in your final push you were even in worker count, and I don't even think you killed very many drones that game. And even though you didn't need to in any of the replays I saw, I think you were in great positions to take a 3rd after that first big push.
I will definitely be trying this one out soon!
Oh also, I don't mind that you used mediafire to upload, but might I advise you just upload one zip file of your replays rather than each individual? No biggie though.
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On March 23 2011 09:05 Poetic wrote:
Loved watching this strat in action! Especially the first game vs Fatallis...his reaction was priceless! Also, I didn't realize you could repair auto-turrets. How annoying and brilliant.
In regards to Fatallis' comment, I don't think this is an all-in build, right? It has a late expansion, but even in your final push you were even in worker count, and I don't even think you killed very many drones that game. And even though you didn't need to in any of the replays I saw, I think you were in great positions to take a 3rd after that first big push.
I will definitely be trying this one out soon!
Oh also, I don't mind that you used mediafire to upload, but might I advise you just upload one zip file of your replays rather than each individual? No biggie though.
its definetely not an all in he was just angry and raging at me
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How does this do against early roach aggression? Usually 1 racks worth of marines is insufficient defense. The early gas might make the zerg go roach and roll your face, no?
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On March 23 2011 23:41 dUTtrOACh wrote:
How does this do against early roach aggression? Usually 1 racks worth of marines is insufficient defense. The early gas might make the zerg go roach and roll your face, no?
the last replay i just added should answer Your question its all about scouting
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This is some good stuff; the only part I would disagree with is the notion of getting thors + blue flame hellions and later tanks to fight ling/bling/muta. You run the risk of not being able to deny the zerg's 3rd and 4th base, especially if he spends all his gas on muta.
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Hey,
Your first post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164267
This is the build ive been using for the longest time -prolly since you posted it LOL (now 3700 T)
Made a few adjustments and i'd like to hear your opinion:
- Assuming standard no roach/bane harass or anything, when do you find is the optimal time to put down 2nd gas? I've noticed that gas is very important, usually the limiting resource so earlier the better. You can either place it before your hellion, after hellion, after supply depot that is needed for 1st medivac - what do you aim for? I like the hellion first for scouting info.
-I go for a more all-in push most of the time - meaning no OC when ur place down ur armory. I push around 9 min when my 2nd thor comes out...if you wait too long on 1 base you'll get raped. I also put around 15scvs...have u experimented with 1base all in or do you find going 2 base is better.
- Do you find this new variation a lot stronger?
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On March 24 2011 02:16 OmNomSpy wrote:
This is some good stuff; the only part I would disagree with is the notion of getting thors + blue flame hellions and later tanks to fight ling/bling/muta. You run the risk of not being able to deny the zerg's 3rd and 4th base, especially if he spends all his gas on muta.
eh what can i say ive made it work its not easy but it works
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On March 24 2011 02:32 CrayonKing wrote:Hey, Your first post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164267This is the build ive been using for the longest time -prolly since you posted it LOL (now 3700 T) Made a few adjustments and i'd like to hear your opinion: - Assuming standard no roach/bane harass or anything, when do you find is the optimal time to put down 2nd gas? I've noticed that gas is very important, usually the limiting resource so earlier the better. You can either place it before your hellion, after hellion, after supply depot that is needed for 1st medivac - what do you aim for? I like the hellion first for scouting info. -I go for a more all-in push most of the time - meaning no OC when ur place down ur armory. I push around 9 min when my 2nd thor comes out...if you wait too long on 1 base you'll get raped. I also put around 15scvs...have u experimented with 1base all in or do you find going 2 base is better. - Do you find this new variation a lot stronger?
i always get my hellion before my second gas, the timing is important to roast lings before ling speed and to scout for roach rush, im finding this build to be stronger because it has more options for transtition and doesnt mean u insta lose if he has enough units out to deal with your attack
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How would you change it up if you see pool first but you already got your refinery up?
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On March 24 2011 04:51 spybreak wrote:
How would you change it up if you see pool first but you already got your refinery up?
u can easily do a double banshee opening or just a one banshee expand or a double hellion expand, if hes not going for an FE then it isnt as serious for you to cause eco damage to him
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Ive been using the original of the build and have had a lot of success. Just wanted to say thanks. I would suggest getting a few banshees to force AA after the first marine drop while expanding and waiting for armory
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On March 24 2011 07:11 WastedScotch wrote:
Ive been using the original of the build and have had a lot of success. Just wanted to say thanks. I would suggest getting a few banshees to force AA after the first marine drop while expanding and waiting for armory
yeah that banshee is useful if he tries to push you with roaches too
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Does this build rely more on Zerg being bad or you being good?
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On March 26 2011 17:51 Trakky wrote:
Does this build rely more on Zerg being bad or you being good?
im a high masters terrran, all those replays are against high masters zergs, rigid is in the top 100 so is inflow looky, please define bad
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What I mean is, this strategy definitely has a surprise effect that marine tank do not; however, if the Zerg player has seen and practiced against this strat before, will this strategy give the win to the better player?
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Nice Play im going to try this
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On March 26 2011 19:15 Trakky wrote:
What I mean is, this strategy definitely has a surprise effect that marine tank do not; however, if the Zerg player has seen and practiced against this strat before, will this strategy give the win to the better player?
i just beat colRyze with it yesterday and we played twice in a row, it was actually the second game where i won even though i did the exact same strat, i just had better micro, i just came up with this strat over the last few weeks, so to be honest it needs more testing with the Tl community to get good Data on how effective it is to consistently open with this build, but i must say that unpredictability is always a strength of a good player so having something like this at your disposal to throw your opponent off is always good. The truth is this build looks like a two port or one port cloak banshee build until the dropship comes out, i throw people off by doing those strats instead of this one sometimes.
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What if the Zerg gets 3-4 sunken colonies and masses lings and then begins to drone hard? Do you still pressure with the 1thor, some marines, medivac, and scvs?
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On March 27 2011 08:42 aw34r wrote:
What if the Zerg gets 3-4 sunken colonies and masses lings and then begins to drone hard? Do you still pressure with the 1thor, some marines, medivac, and scvs?
hmm ive never had a zerg make 4 sunken colonies when they can clearly see i went fast factory, like i said in my previous post, fast refinery with fast factory usually tells zerg its a banshee build, why would they build 4 sunkens? even if they mass tons of lings like vVv rigid did, u can still keep his ling count down with dropship micro
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How does dropship micro keep lingcount low if they A)already have a mass amount of lings, or B) continue to keep building in the face of my drops? In the vVv rigid game, he came out and met your thor/rine/scv/medivac army in the middle and engaged. What if he was instead behind his sunkens at his natural? Do you still engage and if so, what would u target? Or would you proceed to back up and start producing blue flame helion to support?
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On March 27 2011 09:31 aw34r wrote:
How does dropship micro keep lingcount low if they A)already have a mass amount of lings, or B) continue to keep building in the face of my drops? In the vVv rigid game, he came out and met your thor/rine/scv/medivac army in the middle and engaged. What if he was instead behind his sunkens at his natural? Do you still engage and if so, what would u target? Or would you proceed to back up and start producing blue flame helion to support?
i dont really have time to do theory crafting, if u have a replay of this happening id like to see it, sunkens arent much of a problem when i do thor pushes against a zerg, if they had a crazy amount like 4 or 5 then no, i would just do whatever damage i can in his main, keep in mind that 5 sunkens is 5 drones hes down plus the cost of the sunkens which should be at least 300 minerals i dont know exactly im not a zerg player. no good zerg is gonna make that kind of a resource sacrifice on static defenses.
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On March 27 2011 09:47 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 09:31 aw34r wrote:
How does dropship micro keep lingcount low if they A)already have a mass amount of lings, or B) continue to keep building in the face of my drops? In the vVv rigid game, he came out and met your thor/rine/scv/medivac army in the middle and engaged. What if he was instead behind his sunkens at his natural? Do you still engage and if so, what would u target? Or would you proceed to back up and start producing blue flame helion to support? i dont really have time to do theory crafting, if u have a replay of this happening id like to see it, sunkens arent much of a problem when i do thor pushes against a zerg, if they had a crazy amount like 4 or 5 then no, i would just do whatever damage i can in his main, keep in mind that 5 sunkens is 5 drones hes down plus the cost of the sunkens which should be at least 300 minerals i dont know exactly im not a zerg player. no good zerg is gonna make that kind of a resource sacrifice on static defenses.
I'll see if I can find it. I think maybe this was a special case then. The fact that you say no good zerg would make that sacrifice is what I think caught me off guard and threw me off my game. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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If Zerg stays on sling/bling/muta, is it wise to just keep going thors+hellions (should I add banshees in too?) and not go tanks at all? Because I know that tanks work well in big numbers and if I'm already going heavy thor and hellion, I wouldn't have an enough sized of tanks to be effective. Love your replays/strats.
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Also, why do you get a raven? Is it for detection or just only for auto turret. Also when you're on 2 base going to get a 3rd, what makes you decide if you want to add more port to 2 ports or make more factories and what indicates if you want to get more thors or more hellions? Early on, after the first medivac is out, what makes you decide if you want a 2nd medivac or a banshee instead?
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On March 27 2011 13:19 Trakky wrote:
If Zerg stays on sling/bling/muta, is it wise to just keep going thors+hellions (should I add banshees in too?) and not go tanks at all? Because I know that tanks work well in big numbers and if I'm already going heavy thor and hellion, I wouldn't have an enough sized of tanks to be effective. Love your replays/strats.
i generally stay on thor hellion until he switches to roaches, as the upgrades start to add up thor hellion starts to demolish ling muta bling. especially once u start adding ravens
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On March 27 2011 13:22 Trakky wrote:
Also, why do you get a raven? Is it for detection or just only for auto turret. Also when you're on 2 base going to get a 3rd, what makes you decide if you want to add more port to 2 ports or make more factories and what indicates if you want to get more thors or more hellions? Early on, after the first medivac is out, what makes you decide if you want a 2nd medivac or a banshee instead?
i just spend my money on whats available, sometimes it just works out in a game that i have a large gas stockpile and like day9 will tell you, you should always try to keep your money low, ravens are a great unit
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So if Z sticks to sling bling muta, I shouldn't add banshees or tanks into the mix because thor hellion is really good against that unit comp. Also, raven's use is for auto turret right?
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That's another pretty cool 'a little bit of everything' build
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On March 27 2011 22:01 Antisocialmunky wrote:That's another pretty cool 'a little bit of everything' build
yeah its one of those builds thats really fun when its done properly haha
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I really like your replays. Do you suggest going pure mech after that opening or get 4 raxes up with stim and combat shield. When should I go pure mech and when should I start getting raxes? Thanks!
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On March 28 2011 16:00 Trakky wrote:
I really like your replays. Do you suggest going pure mech after that opening or get 4 raxes up with stim and combat shield. When should I go pure mech and when should I start getting raxes? Thanks!
its up to you really, in some games if i do alot of damage and hes going almost nothing but roaches i will get 4 rax marauders 2 fac thors and one starport banshees i think i did that in some replays.
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What do you think I should transition to after seeing sling/bling/infestors. What I do is recognizing his lack of map control and get my 3rd and 4th really quickly and have an insane econ; however, I still don't know what unit comp to transition to midgame because thors get NP and hellions are useless after getting 1 good fungal while bioball just melts. Maybe mass thors + lots of banshees to snipe any infestors that are trying to NP? or just bioball but really heavy tanks? but then once they tech to BLs, it's gg for me because all my tanks become useless and infestors take care of everything else. Any air play is out of the question too. I seriously don't think ghosts is good though. 2700 masters here but don't know what to do, so after opening with this strat, what do you think is my best route?
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On March 29 2011 00:22 Trakky wrote:
What do you think I should transition to after seeing sling/bling/infestors. What I do is recognizing his lack of map control and get my 3rd and 4th really quickly and have an insane econ; however, I still don't know what unit comp to transition to midgame because thors get NP and hellions are useless after getting 1 good fungal while bioball just melts. Maybe mass thors + lots of banshees to snipe any infestors that are trying to NP? or just bioball but really heavy tanks? but then once they tech to BLs, it's gg for me because all my tanks become useless and infestors take care of everything else. Any air play is out of the question too. I seriously don't think ghosts is good though. 2700 masters here but don't know what to do, so after opening with this strat, what do you think is my best route?
you must have tanks if your opponent has NP infestors unless your up a base and have a ton of gas for banshees. really after the opening harass its really just standard TVZ from there on u have an expo a barracks a factory and a starport, this build is really only for people who have experience doing 1-1-1 builds and transitioning out of them.
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I realize this is such a great 1/1/1 opening that can really transition into anything while pressuring a lot to zerg (because after the first attack, he might make a lot of lings, of which they could be drones, so then he kept making drones after that thinking no other attack could come and that he's already behind, to which the thor timing atk comes with scvs) and then of course a banshee which secures the expo from any banelingbust/counter attack and gain map control/scouting info. I also like to get a viking out after the banshee while my 2nd base is done to overlord hunt because I don't need a 2nd banshee and getting a 3rd medivac would be too early so the port would just sit idle anyway.
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On March 30 2011 00:46 Trakky wrote:
I realize this is such a great 1/1/1 opening that can really transition into anything while pressuring a lot to zerg (because after the first attack, he might make a lot of lings, of which they could be drones, so then he kept making drones after that thinking no other attack could come and that he's already behind, to which the thor timing atk comes with scvs) and then of course a banshee which secures the expo from any banelingbust/counter attack and gain map control/scouting info. I also like to get a viking out after the banshee while my 2nd base is done to overlord hunt because I don't need a 2nd banshee and getting a 3rd medivac would be too early so the port would just sit idle anyway.
yeah zergs like to send overlords to your future expansion spots and gum them up with creep, ive noticed if i kill the overlords they had near those spots in the beginning of the game they will forget to replace them. this saves me the headache of having to wait for the creep to disappear
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Thank you for posting this build Pookie. I don't play a lot, but I'm 3-0 with it so far in Diamond. You are right, it is very micro intensive, but it can really throw off your opponent if they can't keep up with the multi-pronged attacks.
However, I feel really weak when I expo (landing OC at natural as Thor moves out) as I only have a Thor or two and a few Marines/Hellions to defend. In your replay, you only throw down 1 bunker at your expo. Do you just rely on constant pressure/harass to keep your expo safe?
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I haven't checked through all the replays nor all the posts, but what do you guys think of the capabilities of a build like this on Taldarim Altar? Because that is the place where I personally struggel most with Zerg, not having won any game there yet against em (well I only think I've played 2 TvZ there, but I've not even felt I was close in any of those games, I just got crushed everytime I left my base :p).
Oh and also, Thanks pookie, build looks cool. Definitely gonna try it
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I don't remember the last time 4 pool was a build in SC2 ^ ㅅ ^;
In all seriousness, this seems like a nice build. I will be watching these replays.
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Okay, Pookie, apparently your TvZ build is really good. However, I'm a Z player - how do I stop your build if I see it used against me (if you don't mind me asking)?
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On March 30 2011 04:52 DoctorClock wrote:
Thank you for posting this build Pookie. I don't play a lot, but I'm 3-0 with it so far in Diamond. You are right, it is very micro intensive, but it can really throw off your opponent if they can't keep up with the multi-pronged attacks.
However, I feel really weak when I expo (landing OC at natural as Thor moves out) as I only have a Thor or two and a few Marines/Hellions to defend. In your replay, you only throw down 1 bunker at your expo. Do you just rely on constant pressure/harass to keep your expo safe?
yes constant pressure is how i protect my expo, but really look at the replays pay attention to how much a zerg generally has at this stage in the game, how can a zerg at 9 minutes into the game on a FE build really have enough to defend their main from a marine hellion drop and take down a scv repaired thor with a meddivac and bunker at the same time. some games im forced to get a banshee out faster cause of fast roaches and i have a replay of that. i think i should add that this build is not a good idea on close spawns slag pitts due to how easy it is for them to just baneling roach u to death.
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On March 30 2011 05:10 skypig wrote:
Okay, Pookie, apparently your TvZ build is really good. However, I'm a Z player - how do I stop your build if I see it used against me (if you don't mind me asking)?
its a standard harass build so all the mechanics of defending harrass are what keep you alive, being able to manage your army well and micro good. i feel this build works the best against players who try ling baneling muta and worst against players who mass roaches so that they have enough in their main to defend my drop and enough to attack my expo. those players sacrifice alot of economy to do so however
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Pookie, pookie, pookie. I have seen your incredible success vs Zerg and truly you are a role model. I am a lowly high diamond Terran whom maintains his 51/49 w/l ratio off of terran and protoss games alone. I lost 12 out of my last 13 Zerg games, and I have decided to start practicing this build. (after many,many failed attempts of 9:00 MMM or MMH pushes). I shall practice in good faith and measure, However I wonder if you have any room in your stardom to help a poor Terran out... do you offer coaching at all? I'm pretty sure there is some way I can compensate you in return.
Anyways, thank you for your wonderful help for the community. Let's hope this here Terran sees a light at the end of this nydus wurm soon enough.
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On March 30 2011 07:03 RukKus wrote:
Pookie, pookie, pookie. I have seen your incredible success vs Zerg and truly you are a role model. I am a lowly high diamond Terran whom maintains his 51/49 w/l ratio off of terran and protoss games alone. I lost 12 out of my last 13 Zerg games, and I have decided to start practicing this build. (after many,many failed attempts of 9:00 MMM or MMH pushes). I shall practice in good faith and measure, However I wonder if you have any room in your stardom to help a poor Terran out... do you offer coaching at all? I'm pretty sure there is some way I can compensate you in return.
Anyways, thank you for your wonderful help for the community. Let's hope this here Terran sees a light at the end of this nydus wurm soon enough.
i dont have enough time to do coaching unfortunately, i tried doing MMM and MMH timing pushes too off fast expos but they had a terrible showing, so i just went back and looked at my old build.
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Do you feel that something like 2 rax fe isnt powerful enough in tvz as it is in tvp? It seems by fe vs zerg you let them drone a lot. Does terran need these delayed expo and strong harass and push tactics to compete vs good z players?
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On March 31 2011 00:08 RukKus wrote:
Do you feel that something like 2 rax fe isnt powerful enough in tvz as it is in tvp? It seems by fe vs zerg you let them drone a lot. Does terran need these delayed expo and strong harass and push tactics to compete vs good z players?
i think its powerful but it seems thats only the case if you do a 2 base tank marine push which i dont think im really that comfortable with
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Watched 4-5 replays, tried the build myself. Pretty damn intense build I gotta say. It's like trying a new hybrid super hot food (ample warning in OP already).
Damn, coming from a high bronze player this build is tough, especially (finished 2nd last season) when trying to keep up all the usual base macro stuff while the attack is going. Won on first attempt on this build but as mid-game plan I just couldnt handle it and transitioned to MMM+Raven+Thor+BF Hell push rather than doing double pronged attack.
Wouldn't you think it would be better to hit rapidly from one end of the base then immediately retreating back from team A coming from the west, then while the units are clumped to one side of the base we come in from the east with team B? Effectively yo-yo-ing the enemy to and fro?
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On March 31 2011 01:09 Slickz wrote:
Watched 4-5 replays, tried the build myself. Pretty damn intense build I gotta say. It's like trying a new hybrid super hot food (ample warning in OP already).
Damn, coming from a high bronze player this build is tough, especially (finished 2nd last season) when trying to keep up all the usual base macro stuff while the attack is going. Won on first attempt on this build but as mid-game plan I just couldnt handle it and transitioned to MMM+Raven+Thor+BF Hell push rather than doing double pronged attack.
Wouldn't you think it would be better to hit rapidly from one end of the base then immediately retreating back from team A coming from the west, then while the units are clumped to one side of the base we come in from the east with team B? Effectively yo-yo-ing the enemy to and fro?
eh the thor is slow and not everything i bring with the attack can fit in the medivac, i mean i suppose you can bring just the Thor and medivac and try that yoyo approach
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I can't see the replays but this sounds really awesome. Can you repost the replays?
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On March 31 2011 03:36 Calvin12 wrote:
I can't see the replays but this sounds really awesome. Can you repost the replays?
hmm why cant you see the replays? is the links i put in the OP not working?
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Any new replays? Ive had incredible success with this build but after the reset I've been getting demolished. It's not even close. By the time I knock on their door with the two pronged attack - im usually met with 3ish mutas and lings which fend off my harasss way too easily. Does this mean im behind in my build?
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Would it be good if I don't bring any scvs and easily save all my units (the thor) because I never could do any real damage with my 6 scvs repairing. Also, after the first thor, I just add 2 more rax and treat it as standard marine tank and get stim/combat shield/+1 then eventually become 4/2/1 on 2 bases while getting a 3rd. Also, in what situation or map or unit comp Z has would you go "pure mech would work wonders here."
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On March 31 2011 10:31 aw34r wrote:
Any new replays? Ive had incredible success with this build but after the reset I've been getting demolished. It's not even close. By the time I knock on their door with the two pronged attack - im usually met with 3ish mutas and lings which fend off my harasss way too easily. Does this mean im behind in my build?
whoa mutas? no way your definitely doing the build wrong if he has mutas out when u dont the first two pronged attack
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On March 31 2011 12:39 Trakky wrote:
Would it be good if I don't bring any scvs and easily save all my units (the thor) because I never could do any real damage with my 6 scvs repairing. Also, after the first thor, I just add 2 more rax and treat it as standard marine tank and get stim/combat shield/+1 then eventually become 4/2/1 on 2 bases while getting a 3rd. Also, in what situation or map or unit comp Z has would you go "pure mech would work wonders here."
its possible i just hope your actually doing the build right, can u show me a replay?
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I've been doing the similar build except i'm doing octodrops with marines followed up by thor drop or more medivacs with more marines. This works exceptionally well on close air distance on (s)LT and Metalopolis. Just camp the marines behind the mineral lines will give you a great lead even if you lose it all, because the zerg really have to invest a tons to get rid of it. Also you'd get your natural up by time your second medivac is ready.
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Hey dude, Im 3700 terran before reset and been throwing your build in quuite often...I was using your old version tho so after checking out your replays I have a few questions..
1. what happened to reactor rax? I noticed in a lot of your replays you had surplus of minerals, wouldnt that reactor help (start building on fac and swap like you use to do), I also noticed ur composition doesnt usually have too many marines, more so thors...is this intentional or just how it ended up.
2. do you generally always try to harass with first banshee? I havent been but you do some crazy damage
3. What is proper response to mass ling/banes/mutas...a lot of ur replays you constanly harass so they never reach any critical mass but if you drop another fac, research blue flame on the other ... how do you deal with the mutas with lack of aa.
4. one last thing, ur timing of expo varies...what do you usually aim for?
ty for help
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On April 01 2011 21:59 CrayonKing wrote:
Hey dude, Im 3700 terran before reset and been throwing your build in quuite often...I was using your old version tho so after checking out your replays I have a few questions..
1. what happened to reactor rax? I noticed in a lot of your replays you had surplus of minerals, wouldnt that reactor help (start building on fac and swap like you use to do), I also noticed ur composition doesnt usually have too many marines, more so thors...is this intentional or just how it ended up.
2. do you generally always try to harass with first banshee? I havent been but you do some crazy damage
3. What is proper response to mass ling/banes/mutas...a lot of ur replays you constanly harass so they never reach any critical mass but if you drop another fac, research blue flame on the other ... how do you deal with the mutas with lack of aa.
4. one last thing, ur timing of expo varies...what do you usually aim for?
ty for help
1. hmm yeah i think i need to do that reactor rax again to get more mariners out
2. yeah in many games all the zergys queens die from the harrass especially since i target them, the banshee proceeds to go to work lol
3. you pretty much answered the question this build is actually MOST effective against ling bane muta builds do to the constant timing attacks and wearing down his ling numbers, and weakest to roach infestor baneling builds
4. i have to be honest im not a very methodical player im very scatterbrained, my expo varies cause i kinda just build it whenever i remember too when im in control of the game lol
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How effective is this build againt P? i know its mainly for zerg but with the drop + banshee - into thor push seems deadly.. Also i see in some of your games you don't get 2nd medivac but favor 2 banshees with your thor.. Is there a reason for this? When should i build the 2nd medivac and when should i build the exstra banshees
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absolutley loving this build so thanks for the posting. i have been doing a slightly different version but the core principle and opening is the same. i try to get down my cc in base as soon as possible after factory is complete. delays starport a little but not much and around this time there is usually some excess minerals anyway.having taken the seoncd gas i usually follow up just like you hellion marine drop main thor pushing front often times lifted to main with second medivac and saved just as about to die. my now i have banshee out and expo mining and 4 gas i continue lifting in to main and abusing pixk up and harrass and banshee dps. almost always tech will be delayed and so will a 3rd. i throw down addtional factories research blue flame and go pure mech. thor, blue flame, banshee, and also a RAVEN. that part is crucial. this late game combo is absolutley brutal, and eventually you will be wantning to add tanks, if roach count gets high anyway. final unit combination is usually thor banshee raven blue flame hellion, and some siege tanks. with strike cannons ultra tech switches can be handled, and with pdd blue flame and thors broodlords are fine too. if they have lots of infestros then again this is a sign to build up tank count.
but basically i find this build is a great opening which rewards micro and multitasking as well as transitioning into an incredibly strong late game compisition many zergs aren't used.
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high diamond t, if that matters
I really enjoy using this opening!
i really like your 1/1/1 queen snipe, with a banshee follow up. if you snipe your opponents queens you will almost certainly do damage.
i just dont know how to follow it up. after my initial harass is done and my expo is up, i push with the thors and it usually ends up with a trade where i manage to save the thor.
I just feel like you need that tank/rine + 2-3 thors comp later in the game. well, at least tanks. do you have any reps where the zerg just respons to your banshee/hellion and just goes for infestor/roach? 'cause i feel like it would demolish it pretty hard  maybe im wrong, im just a diamond noob after all
tell me what you think.
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Pookie can you suggest 2 or 3 of those replays specifically? Don't want to download 10 replays to find the best ones :/
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used this build many times on ladder, mad fun^^
tkx pookie.
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Any more recent replays, Pookie? The few times I've used this build I've been pretty successful with it. However, my main issues are A) Remembering about this build, as I most of the time go a 2-rax opener without thinking, B) When I do the push and inflict massive damage, what should my goal be for follow-through?
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EPT
