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10 Pool, Extractor Trick build:
This build allows a quick spawning pool with the potential to have an economy only 100 minerals behind a 14 pool. This build is economically superior to 10 pool and 12 pool double ET with the same or earlier spawning pool timing.
Build order:
10 Pool
Drone
Overlord
Extractor Trick: at 75 build extractor to reduce supply, then build drone and cancel Extractor
2 drones
What is the point of this build?
10 pool ET sacrifices economy for larva and versatility.
Larva
- this can be measure objectively.
Compared to a 14 pool, 10 pool ET is exactly 3 larva ahead. (Larva count calculation is straight forward: 10 seconds on larva spawn timer = 1 larva = 15 seconds of 3 idle larva on hatchery.) My calculations were confirmed by a test.
Versatility
- this is very subjective, but I believe that the flexibility this build offers is of great value.
I intentionally end this build before the queen is built, because 10 pool ET can be used to transition into any number of strategies. Just some examples: mass zerglings early; do a 3 roach rush; tech lair right after queen; go fast expand and lose 200 minerals compared to the most economic build (according to jdseemoreglass's thread).
Opponents that scout a 10 pool as opposed to a 14 pool may adjust their build order to a slightly less economic one.
Finally, this build can delay the scout safely. A drone scout does cost quiet a bit in mining time (12 scout costs 150 minerals, as mentioned in OP). Being able to delay the scout safely may make up for some economic difference (although I concede that an early scout can offer invaluable information about opponent's build order).
Comparison to 14 pool:
14 pool is the most economical one-base opening. So how does 10 pool ET measure up?
Tests:
To compare potential resource gather rate, single player matches were played. The goal was to maximize resource gather rate with each build. To do so, only drones, a Queen, and Overlords were built. At 3:00 and 4:00 extractors were built to avoid oversaturating the mineral field. The number of resources - in the bank, build queue, and units - was counted and compared at 5:00, 6:00, and 7:00.
Results:
At 5:00, 6:00, and 7:00, the 10 pool ET build (SP done at 1:12) was 100 minerals behind the 14 pool build (SP done at 1:54). A queen 40 seconds earlier is enough time for a complete spawn larva. Since 10 pool ET loses a larva while waiting to build the pool, this build is 3 larva ahead of 14 pool.
Replay Links:
14 pool Income test
10 Pool ET Income test *Note: this is an older replay. Overlord before extractor trick is slightly superior.
Note: minimal micro was done in both tests so the builds could be improved. Nevertheless, the relative difference between the builds should remain unchanged.
10 pool ET vs 10 pool 2ET
This build could be done with a double extractor trick. I have done a similar test and found that both builds perform very similarly. This thread focuses on 10 pool ET, because it is slightly easier to perform.
10 pool 2ET Income test
Is a faster spawning pool worth 100 minerals?
The answer will depend on many factors: player styles, map, opponent's race... the point is that 10 pool ET can still very strong economically. If it is a big map and you want an economic edge, by all means go 14 pool. But if you're afraid of being rushed, the 10 pool will let you survive any rush and if you're not rushed, you'll still be able to do well economically.
Consider this: A scout at 12 will cost the player 150 minerals in mining by 5:00. Another test was done: 14 Pool, 12 scout Income test
The 10 Pool ET offers great flexibility at a small cost. There are many aggressive builds that can take 10 pool ET as foundation. And if you're scouted, you can just drone up and lose 100 minerals, knowing that your opponent just sacrificed a similar amount by scouting.
Additionally, this build allows great fake-outs: for example, when the spawning pool finishes, an extractor and roach warren will allow a very early 3 roach push. But if it is scouted, the scout could be chased away with zerglings and the roach warren can be canceled to build a queen and drone up.
Economic performance with 2 hatcheries:
This thread (Putting an end to the Zerg Opening Economy debate) tested various zerg builds for their economic potential. I compared the best build [14 hatch, 15 pool] with my build 10 pool ET, 13 Queen, 17 hatch, which was ~200 minerals behind at 6:00. Although the original poster, jdseemoreglass, did not test this build order, I would be happy to have him reproduce my test.
Final words:
I'm aware that this opening has been suggested before, but i didn't see a thorough analysis of it. Frankly, it was a big surprise to see a 10 pool opening to have the potential to perform so well economically.
I welcome constructive criticism. Please feel free to replicate the tests, or suggest better tests if you're concerned with how i compared the builds. I mention a lot of tests that I do not have replays of. If you're concerned with some of my statements, please call me out on them.
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I 11 ET pool everygame against toss, and its pretty good.
Every now and then, they freak out, build a forge, and a cannon, and I get an advantage from it.
Every now and then they attempt some very early cheese, and the earlier pool gives me an advantage.
Also, against toss that try to block my hatch, I get it out sooner. With the 11 pool, I can make the hatch at 18 supply every game, when trying to go 14 pool 15 hatch, if the toss wants to block it, well he blocks it, and then the hatch comes later than with an 11 pool.
Also, even though you lose out on 1 larva by sitting at 3 larva for 15 seconds, since you get a much faster queen, in the end, you end up ahead on larva.
Pros and cons to doing it:
Pros:
- can cause over reaction
- safe
- extra larva
- same build every game
- much faster hatch for even more extra larva if toss tries to block the hatch
Cons:
- costs you 100 minerals, or even 150 if you get a pair of lings straight away like me
- slightly delayed hatch compared to 14p 15h if the toss doesnt block
Personally, I just like having a build that the toss cant mess with, rather than trying to set my hatch if he lets me, as the ppl I play against just never let me 14 or 15 hatch.
I also go for speedling heavy play, so the extra larva is a nice bonus.
I can see how players would rather try and take the gamble though, hoping that the opponent doesnt manage to block the 14-15 hatch, and getting a few more minerals out of it at the cost of larva, especially if they intend to go roaches.
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i posted a big strategy just recently centered around a 10 pool opening, with queens instantly and constantly producing till you have about 5-6 of them and i got Smashed by people saying i was putting myself really far behind economically.
Nice to have some maths that prove or at least point otherwise.
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Well you ARE putting yourself behind economically.
100 minerals, and if you make the lings earlier than you would with a 14 pool, then 150 minerals.
Its important to recognize that you are putting yourself behind in economy by opening like this, and not to try and deny it.
The question then is just if the pros outweigh the cons, being behind in minerals by 100 to 150 being the major disadvantage there.
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I like the 10Pool very much, because in the higher Diamond League the Protoss player pretty much always tries to deny my expo or tries to canon contain me. So the benefit of going for a hatch first is nearly every time nullified because you have to kill the Pylon at you natural or brake the contain!
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morimacil - You brought up a VERY important point: since the pool is 40 seconds earlier, it translates into an extra spawn larva. This means that 10 pool ET is 100 minerals behind, but gets 3 larva for it. Over a longer game the 3 extra drones could make up the 100 minerals. In my tests I oversaturated the mineral field way too early, which may be why the difference wasn't seen. I'll need to do a few more tests to see the impact.
I've tested ET 11 pool and found that it is slightly inferior to 10 ET. The pool is a few seconds later, a little more larva time lost, and as a result it is a tiny bit behind economically (about 20 minerals by 5:00 in a test).
Indeed the 10 pool ET offers a lot flexibility: Queens could be massed early, early three zerglings followed up by droning, or just a zergling pair to scout, deny blocked hatchery, and chase enemy scout.
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11 Overpool with expand at 18 is 10x better than 10pool will ever be.
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Wow OP.... Are you honestly saying that you "haven't seen a thorough analysis" of these openings?
I mean, I'm sure it is possible. But the fact that this thread was created literally a day after mine is pretty amazing. Also, a simple search will bring up my other threads where I analyzed zerg openings in depth.
You might want to take a look here... (link) because I've proven overpools to be more economical than 10pools 100% of the time.
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Lol. I actually double gas cancel 10 pool EVERY game as Z. 12 drones and earlier queen soon make up for lack of drones if you do a decent amount if your lings.
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@ jdseemoreglass - Yes, I have NOT seen a thorough analysis of 10 pool ET, even after looking at your post. While your post was very educational, you were analyzing openings with extractor trick before pool. I would greatly appreciate if you run your tests with 10 pool ET and 10 pool 2ET. I predict you'll find that both of these will be superior in all aspects to 10 pool and 12 pool DET. Just the fact that you failed to mention 10 pool ET in your analysis is reason enough for this post.
When compared to 11 Overpool, my tests have revealed that 11 overpool will be about 50 minerals ahead by 5:00, but the pool is 23 seconds later. Nobody is denying that overpools are more economical. This post attempts to put a price tag on the faster pool, and it may surprise many players that it isn't very high.
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The 10 Pool DET was tested in this previous thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481
It was pretty quickly discarded. The question I have is whether this build is better than 7/8 pooling straight-up. Looking at it, it seems like you're gonna have to do early ling damage/harassment to justify the pool since your econ will be further behind. If I'm wrong, I'd be interested in seeing it in action straight-up.
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On March 21 2011 22:32 ShadowWolf wrote:
Looking at it, it seems like you're gonna have to do early ling damage/harassment to justify the pool since your econ will be further behind. If I'm wrong, I'd be interested in seeing it in action straight-up.
This.
If you're making an economic sacrifice, the sacrifice has to be made for a reason, some thing that you're trying or hoping to achieve, and 14pool is safe against any sort of rush, so "added safety" is not a good enough reason.
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On March 21 2011 19:45 Theldiot wrote:
When compared to 11 Overpool, my tests have revealed that 11 overpool will be about 50 minerals ahead by 5:00, but the pool is 23 seconds later. Nobody is denying that overpools are more economical. This post attempts to put a price tag on the faster pool, and it may surprise many players that it isn't very high.
The pool may be 23 seconds later, but the first inject (which you're banking on to try to undo some of the disadvantage you've accrued) is only about 12 seconds later, simply because you cannot afford to build a queen with the 10 pool build when the pool is complete.
In addition, early larva are worth more than later larva. Even if 10 pool were a full larva ahead of 11 overpool after the first inject completes (it's not, because of the above), gaining a larva in the 4th minute (which is when the first injects will finish) doesn't make up for losing one in the first minute.
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or drone till 10
pool
drone(rally to extractor)
take a drone that isn't min stacked assuming you min stack, which if you don't you're prlly a scrub and send to other gas
double gas trick (12/10)
overlord
when pool finishes you have 2 larva and about 220mins ie enough for 2 SETS of lings and a queen then the 3rd larva pops and you have money 2-4sec later.
nothing you posted is revolutionary, its actually quite bad.
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Double extractor tricks are also quite bad.
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Looking at it, it seems like you're gonna have to do early ling damage/harassment to justify the pool since your econ will be further behind. If I'm wrong, I'd be interested in seeing it in action straight-up.
Your econ wont be behind. You end up with the same amount of drones in the end.
you lose out on 100-150 minerals, and gain 2-3 extra larva.
If I'm wrong, I'd be interested in seeing it in action straight-up.
 vs  Morimacil vs holypope ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png)
Dunno if this is what you are looking for? Its just a replay of me playing a normal game against toss, where I open with 11 pool as usual. 1 set of lings, back to droning and get my nat at 18.
After that I make an evo chamber, and lots of lings and stuff, but that could have been done with a 14pool opening just the same.
Yes, its an economic sacrifice, but its 100 minerals. Its not like it puts you 10 workers behind or something.
And what it does achieve, is that I have a safe opening that toss cant screw with, pylon blocks at my nat do nothing to me, and if I wanna decide to all-in, I can shoo the scouting probe away faster.
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On March 22 2011 02:57 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +Looking at it, it seems like you're gonna have to do early ling damage/harassment to justify the pool since your econ will be further behind. If I'm wrong, I'd be interested in seeing it in action straight-up. Your econ wont be behind. You end up with the same amount of drones in the end. you lose out on 100-150 minerals, and gain 2-3 extra larva. vs Morimacil vs holypope Dunno if this is what you are looking for? Its just a replay of me playing a normal game against toss, where I open with 11 pool as usual. 1 set of lings, back to droning and get my nat at 18. After that I make an evo chamber, and lots of lings and stuff, but that could have been done with a 14pool opening just the same. Yes, its an economic sacrifice, but its 100 minerals. Its not like it puts you 10 workers behind or something. And what it does achieve, is that I have a safe opening that toss cant screw with, pylon blocks at my nat do nothing to me, and if I wanna decide to all-in, I can shoo the scouting probe away faster.
You did an 11 pool with a double extractor trick. I use this in 2v2 when I play Zerg because it gives me 6 relatively fast lings without sacrificing the level of econ that I like to have for 2v2 play ( I can transition to banelings or roaches ). That's different from the build here.
Further, the question is really "What does it do for me?" In what way is this better than a 14 pool or the 11 overpool that has been shown to be really powerful from a larva standpoint. A major point of building an earlier pool is really in the queen timings - e.g. the previous suggestion that you can't even build a queen when the pool finishes with a 10 pool ET.
I think it's very easy to get too focused on differences in openings. But it'd really come down to focusing on what ways that a 10 Pool ET is superior to an 11 overpool style of build. Do you gain any aggression? Is there a timing window you can hit that an 11 overpool can't?
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This is actually my starting build whenever I get too lazy to change by build up against Protoss. Overpooling puts me to a greater advantage because I can put early pressure and probably a forced forge.
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Thanks for the helpful replies!
I have since adjusted the build to maximize the amount of larva produced.
Additionally, i have tested how well this build can do economically with 2 hatcheries.
On March 22 2011 02:40 Skrag wrote:
The pool may be 23 seconds later, but the first inject (which you're banking on to try to undo some of the disadvantage you've accrued) is only about 12 seconds later, simply because you cannot afford to build a queen with the 10 pool build when the pool is complete.
Good point. It is not exactly that i cannot afford a queen - my build order was not optimal. I have since adjusted the build order:
10 pool
9 Drone
10 Overlord
Extractor Trick *Overlord before ET conserves a bit of larva time and allows the next 2 drones to be made earlier.
2 drones when Overlord finishes *This allows 150 minerals for queen just as the Spawning pool finishes.
That thread tested build solely on their economic merits. I did not intend the 10 pool ET to be the most economic build order, but i was curious how well it would do anyway. The build that was rejected in the thread was: "10pool 10double ex 12ov 12queen -> 18ov 18hatch 24ov 24queen -> ov/drone"
I did a test as well on a modified version: 10 pool, 10 ov, 10 ET, 13 queen, 17 hatch. My version ended up ~200 minerals behind 14 hatch 15 pool at the 6:00 minute mark, while the rejected 10 pool DET version was ~300 minerals behind.
10 pool ET 17 hatch Replay
On March 22 2011 02:20 Skrag wrote:
If you're making an economic sacrifice, the sacrifice has to be made for a reason, some thing that you're trying or hoping to achieve, and 14pool is safe against any sort of rush, so "added safety" is not a good enough reason.
This is a key question.
10 pool ET sacrifices economy for larva and versatility.
Larva
- this can be measure objectively.
Compared to a 14 pool, 10 pool ET is exactly 3 larva ahead. (Larva count calculation is straight forward: 10 seconds on larva spawn timer = 1 larva = 15 seconds of 3 idle larva on hatchery.) My calculations were confirmed by a test.
Versatility
- this is very subjective, but I believe that the flexibility this build offers is of great value.
I intentionally end this build before the queen is built, because 10 pool ET can be used to transition into any number of strategies. Just some examples: mass zerglings early; do a 3 roach rush; tech lair right after queen; go fast expand and lose 200 minerals compared to the most economic build (according to jdseemoreglass's thread).
Opponents that scout a 10 pool as opposed to a 14 pool may adjust their build order to a slightly less economic one.
Finally, this build can delay the scout safely. A drone scout does cost quiet a bit in mining time (12 scout costs 150 minerals, as mentioned in OP). Being able to delay the scout safely may make up for some economic difference (although I concede that an early scout can offer invaluable information about opponent's build order).
On March 22 2011 08:13 ShadowWolf wrote:
I think it's very easy to get too focused on differences in openings. But it'd really come down to focusing on what ways that a 10 Pool ET is superior to an 11 overpool style of build. Do you gain any aggression? Is there a timing window you can hit that an 11 overpool can't?
So far i have focused on comparing 10 pool ET to 14 pool; and 11 overpool is between the two. My tests revealed that 10 pool ET gets a pool 23 seconds earlier, which should translate into 1 extra larva. At 5:00, 11 overpool was 50 minerals ahead. Is one larva and the options available due to earlier spawning pool worth 50 minerals? I can't even begin talking about timing windows, because this involves too many variables (opponent's race, map, spawn distance, scouting etc).
My goal is to show what the benefits and costs of a solid, but under-used build order. If there has been a thorough analysis of this build (or 10 pool DET, which performs just as well) please let me know - i haven't seen such analysis yet.
For people who 10 pool already: there is absolutely no reason not to add a drone via the extractor trick. (DET and ET before pool are inferior as well)
For players who 11 overpool: an even earlier spawning pool may open up options you didn't have before.
For players who get their hatchery pylon/EngiBay-blocked all the time: early zerglings will ensure that you'll be able to expand.
10 pool ET may eventually prove to be inferior to the other more economic build orders. However, at this point it is way too uncommon to draw any conclusions.
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EPT
