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Roach hydra was used extensively in the beta very often but has completely given way to muta ling bane against Terran. I am a top 200 NA zerg and I use roach hydra baneling in about half my games ZvT. The other half of games consist of muta/ling/baneling.
I came upon this composition while testing strategies against biomech or turtley terrans that I could not break with muta/ling/baneling.
The premise of roach/hydra/bane is to have a composition that forces the terran bio to stand by the terran mech units which allows baneling drops to decimate their marines. If the terran tries to marine split, tanks will be left undefended and torn apart by roach hydra. If the marines stay and fight with the tanks, they get carpet bombed by banelings.
![[image loading]](http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/7898/banemarine.jpg)
When to use:
1. Against mech and biomech. Roach hydra is proven strong against mech but falls apart when terran bio is added in. Baneling drops solve this problem. Marines are strong when they can be split to avoid banelings. However, when marines are added to mech, the marines have to stand and fight to defend thors and tanks. Baneling drops are then used to counter the marines.
I typically decide to go roach hydra bane if I scout 2 factories when I reach lair. This usually indicates mech or biomech. 1 Factory is often just standard marine tank medivac play.
2. Close positions. Close positions are never easy for zerg. This isn't a solution for close positions but I believe it is much stronger than the standard muta ling bane. Muta ling bane relies on mobility and counterattacking. However in close positions, it is difficult to expand and utilize the mobility of muta/ling/bane. Roach/hydra/baneling is a strong army that is much stronger against the tank bunker pushes that terrans love to do in close positions.
3. On maps like Xelnaga Caverns where the Terran has an easy central gold 3rd. Once terrans take the gold, it becomes difficult for zerg to take it down with muta ling bane. Roach hydra bane can take out planetaries much more easily. This prevents greedy turtle terrans that aim for a fast gold.
Anticipated Criticisms
1. HYDRAS? Don't they suck against tanks?
Hydras are important because we can have more simultaneous attacking units. This allows roach hydra to tear apart mech units really quickly. Hydras are no worse vs tanks than roaches are. They take the same number of shots (3).
2. How do you stop drop plays?
Avoid this strategy if you believe they will go reactor starport medivacs. This typically happens if you scout 1 fact because the extra gas goes into medivacs. But 2 fact won't have enough gas for medivacs.
3. Can't they just shoot down overlords?
Bring empty overlords with your overlords filled with banelings. If the terran wants to try to shoot down empty overlords during a battle, they simply wont have enough DPS against your attacking units.
4. What's your late game?
Since less banelings are needed, and roach hydra is less gas intensive than muta ling, you will have more gas to tech to hive and have broodlords. I recommend upgrading +1 melee in the mid game to facilitate this transition.
Replays
I put some replays here where I have used this strategy recently. It is by no means refined and completely tested, but you should be able to get the general idea.
My mechanics are rusty but lets focus on the strategy here 
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-195549.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-195552.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-195550.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-195551.jpg)
Let me know your thoughts about the strategy. I'm sure there are ways to improve it and possibly weaknesses that I have overlooked. I have been using this extremely often recently. You can follow me at www.justin.tv/shoefactory or http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/ShoeFactory to see this strategy in action.
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Good post. Interesting style i never really thought about. Will watch replays now.
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I think this is interesting and will check the replays shortly, in the meanwhile how would you argue that roach/hydra is better than roach/ling using the same baneling tactic?
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Interesting strat. I think it's definitely viable vs the typical rine/2 fac tank/medi
As a Terran, I would switch to more medivac & marauder/rine/tank as soon as I see mass roaches and abuse drop play. Lack of muta really hurts you in maintaining map control. I wonder how the game would unfold if T switches tech after seeing the mass roach. From my limited experience, zergs seemed to be going for base trades after I take out their 3rd.
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On March 13 2011 19:29 dementrio wrote:
I think this is interesting and will check the replays shortly, in the meanwhile how would you argue that roach/hydra is better than roach/ling using the same baneling tactic?
I would say so if the map is attack distance is short to medium length. Hydras are limited by their mobility so big maps such as the GSL maps would not be fitting for hydras. In battle, I think having hydras is better than lings because roach hydra will keep their distance from marines so that the marines have to stand up at the front of the battle so you can baneling bomb them. If you use lings instead, marines that are spread out in the back of the battle will still be able to participate by attacking lings.
On March 13 2011 19:36 infinity21 wrote:
Interesting strat. I think it's definitely viable vs the typical rine/2 fac tank/medi
As a Terran, I would switch to more medivac & marauder/rine/tank as soon as I see mass roaches and abuse drop play. Lack of muta really hurts you in maintaining map control. I wonder how the game would unfold if T switches tech after seeing the mass roach. From my limited experience, zergs seemed to be going for base trades after I take out their 3rd.
I agree with you, I believe lacking mutas makes stopping drops very difficult. I typically open vT by planning to get spire. Often I get spire, and then realize they are going 2 or more factories, in which case I add lots of roaches and eventually hydra. It's a lot easier for the zerg to techswitch than the terran if they decide to switch to medivac play from factory units.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Yeah I think one solution for Terran is to have 2 fac tank with 1 reactor port. I can't support all of them but it's not a huge investment to add a reactor to the starport anyways. It's probably good to have like 3 rax with tech lab if I see a good number of roaches as well. I'd be down to play a few games with you tomorrow if you want to see how the game pans out.
infinity.372
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I found really interesting the opening you did vs rootprincess on metal. You delay the second queen to get a warren, then get 6 roaches leaving 1 drone on gas until 100, and get lair before speed (!)
I really like the idea to get roaches to deal with the popular hellion openings which you can't really scout in time to reactively throw down the warren, but I'm not sure I can live without speed for that long. Is this something you do often or only in close positions, and do you think it would be possible to leave 3 drones on gas all the time to get roaches, speed and lair, or would that hurt econ too much?
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What about using defensive infestors to help deal with drops? It seems like a limited amount of infestors, maybe 1 per expansion, could help mitigate the damage dealt by drops. Also, infestors, as long as you don't suicide them (which everyone does), work really well with hydra.
Also, because you have overlord speed you could be aggressive about keeping overlords spread around the map for spotting drops.
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I probably had a big trauma during the beta concerning Hydra in ZvT, cause i really didn't think that strat was doable. The first game on close pos metalo is great, and make me consider doing so on close pos. I have too say that i had a lot of doubts when reading the OP and that game kind of blow my mind. But that the 2nd one against Sterling was painful to watch.
Don't get me wrong, i'm very impressed by your play on that one, but i would be destroyed ( and i think 80% of zerg player would also fall apart ) by that drop play. It's so sad to see you running around loosing so many hatch,thankfully to place that kind of aggression the Terran is kind of all in on 2 base during almost all the game but still this game make me cry like a nerd teenager on bliz forum against the mobility of hydras.
I didn't watch the 4 th one, but the third is impressive too. What i'm trying to say is that it's look pretty hard to execute, my heart is bleeding when i see those full overloard getting destroyed. I'm not too sure i like that on Xel naga, well, i was pretty impressed by the first one on metalo that feels way more solid and doable for my level. I guess it's feel more safe on close pos, small map with less space in general.
The last point that makes me sceptical is your supply. It's probably a meta game stuff, and some personal taste concerning the zerg arsenal. But you are max'ed out really quick, this is a problem imo with roaches/hydra. But this point didn't seem to affect the game, so i don't know.
It's weird, i don't know what to think, you are confusing sir ! :D
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Nice strat, bane drops are so damn good, yet no Z uses it versus me, they just keep masssing 12389238 mutas and then whine. This has got some good potential as roach/hydra alone isnt enough.
Another possible solution is NPing the Terrans tank with this combo. I had a Z do that the other day to me, NPing the tanks when its a tank/marine combo is extremely deadly as the tanks stop shooting the hydra/roach and start taking out all the marine rapidly, even a few seconds of tank NP is alot for the terran to handle.
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Carpet bombing with banelings seems to be surging back as a trend, as this mimics aquanda's ZvP style. At first it seemed a bit impractical because you could lose a ton of ovies, but after watching a few plays with this style it seems to be well worth it because your opponent is on their toes when they see a huge gaggle of overlords full of banelings coming their way. Sort of a new way to get Zerg to be the instigators in the engagement.
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Pretty pathetic game I played. I was trying a new style but its really apm intensive and I just didnt have it that day. I find that my normal playstyle of 2 factory mech-heavy biomech crushes roach/hydra play.
Also, I recognized that picture from our game the moment I saw it ))))
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Hmm, with the upcoming infestor buff have you considered maybe swapping some hydras out for a couple infestors? Fungal will do soem amazing dps, plus they can burrow move with your roach forces. Also infested terrans use the same upgrades as roach/hydra which is a plus.
And infestors aint as damn slow as hydras (wtb speed upgrade back  )
[edit] Also infestor tech already in play means a swifter transition to hive tech when you want it, which got me thinking. Do you opt for ultras or brolords? I'm assumign ultras since you won't have the spire up, but broodlords go nicely with hydras due to covering eachothers weaknesses.
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This seems very interesting for close distance spawns. As you said, the mobility you have with ling/muta is pretty dead when he can expand and attack in the same (short) direction. I'd rather have a strong standing army.
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thanks shoey, been thinkin about doing something like this, ill check out the replays
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On March 13 2011 19:58 dementrio wrote:
I found really interesting the opening you did vs rootprincess on metal. You delay the second queen to get a warren, then get 6 roaches leaving 1 drone on gas until 100, and get lair before speed (!)
I really like the idea to get roaches to deal with the popular hellion openings which you can't really scout in time to reactively throw down the warren, but I'm not sure I can live without speed for that long. Is this something you do often or only in close positions, and do you think it would be possible to leave 3 drones on gas all the time to get roaches, speed and lair, or would that hurt econ too much?
I think you can live without speed on close positions. Mobility isn't as important and if you see a gas first, you can be sure hellions are coming.
I don't think its smart to leave 3 guys on gas. Once you get safe, you should power economy. Putting 3 guys on gas is poor economy management, because you cut drones to make roaches, so you should forgo units while you power your econ.
On March 14 2011 21:49 Undercroft wrote:Hmm, with the upcoming infestor buff have you considered maybe swapping some hydras out for a couple infestors? Fungal will do soem amazing dps, plus they can burrow move with your roach forces. Also infested terrans use the same upgrades as roach/hydra which is a plus. And infestors aint as damn slow as hydras (wtb speed upgrade back ) [edit] Also infestor tech already in play means a swifter transition to hive tech when you want it, which got me thinking. Do you opt for ultras or brolords? I'm assumign ultras since you won't have the spire up, but broodlords go nicely with hydras due to covering eachothers weaknesses.
I don't really have a use for infestors because the terran army already has to stand and fight or their tanks die. It's not like ling bling play where marines try to spread and run around. I'd rather get the faster hive than have infestors. I'd also rather have a muta pack to stop drops than have infestors.
Always broodlords, because like you said, hydras force terran to have a ground AND air dominance to beat broodlords. I make the spire at t2 to have unit options. A 200/200 building is a small price to pay the option to techswitch. I think ultras are pretty bad anyways.
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interesting idea... thanks i will try it!
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Ive been having really good result using this vs Biomech terran Thanks for sharing it :D
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I've been favoring roach/bling drops in ZvT lately, and I wonder if you think it's a viable approach with your build. Drops are particularly stressful for a meching terran, given their immobility, and could be a good response if you're afraid of a dropship transition from the terran.
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I'm not convinced that hydras are going to be cost effective especially since they are so gas heavy. Smart terrans usually continue to go tank against roach since a critical amount of tanks still cream roaches.
I'm going to start watching replays but still a bit skeptical.
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Hey Shoey Finest here xD This strat can be surprisingly strong, I've seen a 200 supply tank bio army get demolished. Guess I'll have to watch the replays after work incase it becomes common!
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EDIT: didnt realize this thread was too many months old to be relevant....
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On May 11 2011 15:14 Retrospecd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 21:49 Undercroft wrote:
Hmm, with the upcoming infestor buff have you considered maybe swapping some hydras out for a couple infestors?
Is this a joke? What infestor buff? Slower speed? Please read patch notes before posting about upcoming "buffs"
That post was made 2 month ago, shortly before the increased DPS of fungal. You should check the timestamps before posting.
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So... why Hydra rather than Zergling/Infestor?
Is this strategy dated (before the popularization of Infestors) or is there a compelling reason to prefer Hydralisk? The marines can't very well go a-waltzing away from the tanks, given the threat of fungal and/or Zerglings in the face.
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On May 11 2011 15:31 Severedevil wrote:
So... why Hydra rather than Zergling/Infestor?
Is this strategy dated (before the popularization of Infestors) or is there a compelling reason to prefer Hydralisk? The marines can't very well go a-waltzing away from the tanks, given the threat of fungal and/or Zerglings in the face.
Zergling infestor is really strong vs Bio but gets weaker with when terran adds more mech into their play. Tanks can kill a lot of lings and if BF hellions are added to the mix zerglings are useless in a big engagement. Roach Infestor does really well vs mech but the problem with roaches are their short range. Unless your engaging in a wide open area where your roachs can get a full surround on the opponent chances are your going to have some roaches int he back of your army not engaging because they arnt within range. This is where hydras really help out their superior range lets them engage in the battle while being behind the roaches not to mention hydras have a ton of DPS and as shoey pointed out take the same number of shots from a tank as roaches do. Ive been favoring Roach hydra infestor lately If terran is going pure mech you can use the infestors to NP thors and/or banshees or even use fungal to reveal cloaked banshees if you dont have an overseer and if terran is going biomech you can use fungal to clean up the bio forces pretty easily while roachs and hydras clean up the mech. The ability to take down medivacs during engagements is another plus for this build. I dont know how many times ive gone ling infestor taken out a terran army and the medivacs get away only to be used to harrass me later. The last thing that comes to mind is that this build is more larva efficient than a sling infestor build.
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I posted something about this a while ago when I was in platinum and people just laughed at it  but a grandmaster does it an people listen lol
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Nice to see you post this Shoey, I remember discussing this stuff with you a while back. I've been doing something similar but also storing a few roaches in the overlords to get a little extra dps or encourage friendly fire. I didnt think of using hydras though, seems like a good idea and helps against drops compared to just roach bane.
I'll have to see this live next time I catch you on.
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Are Hydras really that bad at defending drops? I get that they're slow and fragile, but at least they can hit the medivacs and kill units that are on cliffs.
It seems like most terrans drop behind the mineral line... why not just put a spore and/or a spine?
I actually can't find how fast medivacs drop units. It's not listed on the page, but I'm guessing it's something like 1 per in-game second? A spore crawler kills a Medivac in roughly 9 game seconds. If a Medivac flies over the back of the mineral line and runs into a spore crawler, it's going to take at least 1 or 2 game seconds to come to a stop. If it decides to just go ahead and drop, it won't get to unload all of the marines before it dies (though I guess if it has 4 marauders it can do it just fine). If it turns around, and tries to drop out of range, it'll have taken at least 2 or 3 shots from the spore, and you'll have extra time. 2 or 3 Hydras +queen should be able to take it out pretty quickly. A spine in the mineral line also does plenty of damage. And what about burrowed banelings right where they usually drop? 2 of them would be really silly... your opponent unloads, they explode and drop stopped!
It seems like it's "assumed" that you can't deal with Medivacs without Mutalisks. I agree that it's hard, but it doesn't seem like that big of an inconvenience to add a spine and a spore to each base. It also removes the amount of multitasking that you have to do to defend the drops and makes it easier to look elsewhere.
In terms of Hydras vs Terran, it seems like they're REALLY inefficient by themselves against bio. That and the fact that they're so slow, you can't pull back if your attack doesn't work out. However, it seems like Nydus or drops are pretty much designed to work with Hydras. Nydus gives you a place to insta-escape to, and drops do too to a lesser extent, AND they both give ways to spread creep. Hydras suck though unless you have units to tank for them... thus the roaches or zerglings.
I think that Hydras will be pretty good in ZvT once people get to super-high APM and can successfully pull off drops with creep tumors and creep spread on the fly.
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yet another style. i wonder if the carpet bombing is a fad or its got wings. i guess just have to wait for the evolution of game.
i'm just jazzed cuz day9 is back baby.
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EPT
