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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
Aside from that, here are some tactics you may not be doing that you should try out: - baneling drops - burrowed infestors using infested terran on siege tanks or mineral lines - attempting to out-macro as opposed to engaging a fortified position (this is something I hate about zerg in SC2, not only are they weak, they can hardly ever attack and always have to defend and play long games) | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On February 21 2011 19:04 Trump wrote: Here are my problems from my perspective. 2) My gimmicks are stopped because an overlord is sacrificed and sees a key building I am just trying to give some advice here, not saying that it's the best or that it will solve the problems: Get more marines to protect, and build anything giving away the strategy further in. If they do scout it, try mostly abandoning the gimmick attempt? On February 21 2011 19:04 Trump wrote: I don't know why terrans haven't been doing this, maybe due to economy loss of doing it too early and speedling/xelnaga/overlord scouting later on, but building a proxy barracks and lifting it off can be a good scout, and is cheaper than a MULE/scan. Reapers are also another option.3) I cannot scout the zerg because they can catch any scouting unit that isn't flying with their speedlings. On February 21 2011 19:04 Trump wrote: IMO hellions deal with this well. Otherwise waiting for medivac/banshee works but is obviously a compromise. Many maps also have detours around xelnaga towers too though. I thought that banshee expansion build works well because zerg cannot scout it easily due to the banshee(s). Reapers are another option, especially on certain maps like LT/xelnaga4) The zerg can control the xel'naga watch towers between your base and theirs so easily with a zergling. On February 21 2011 19:04 Trump wrote: well terrans have radar towers too so it's pretty even in that scenario7) The creep spread. Their units are so powerful and fast on creep. You can't go on it or you get surrounded and die. They have perfect vision of their creep so there's no sneak attacks. On February 21 2011 19:04 Trump wrote:8) Their super units at the end game require very different counters. You get vikings, they get ultralisks, you lose. Speaking of ultralisks, it's one unit that doesn't really have a hard counter when coupled with the oh-so-great baneling. Marauders and banshees. Although with zerglings it's harder of course. Marauders have to be in front, marines behind and spaced out. thors are kinda an option instead of banshee if they have large muta force. Lastly, I rather doubt it's 25% vs zerg. I presume you use SC2Gears? It can find stats like that for you. I've had terrible times, but generally It's only been on certain map, and somewhat of a fluke or due to play style. | ||
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foxlyfe
2 Posts
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lagbzz
Poland171 Posts
I am a fairly noob terran player but had a not so bad win rate vs zerg until one of my friends came across the 4min 3 roach rush push. Beats me all the time, contains me and i cant get out, please help! Scout earlier to see it coming, make marauders, if you'll defend it, you're ahead. For Zedders, try offracing with Terran, you seem like you're afraid of every unit he throws at you. Also, if your plan is to go muta/ling/bling don't be afraid to switch to roaches mainly, if you see him go 2 fac Thor. You have mutas to scout. Another thing, if you have problems with bunker rushes, 4gates etc. just check out mrbitter's vods on blip. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
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biteMe
Germany241 Posts
so lets say you try to bust his wall.. he ll grin and take the freewin. you get mutas - he has marines anyway and still can get thors, which make mutas completely useless in a group of 4 id say. you get infestors.. he ll have emp you get broodlords he ll make vikings which is a laugh for a counter to such an expensive unit. you get ultras then he ll just mass marauders.. again a joke for balance. so what you need is to hope for him to throw the game basicly. you can do alot to put pressure on him by scouting. the change of unit composition needs to be faster than his. and you have to take every chance to trade units(as long as you destroy his ball). if you can destroy 4 of his tanks in any situation, that can mean the game for you. armor upgrades seem to be very useful for me. and well try to get on train with the muta/ling/bling combo as long as its working. it does work alot especially if the terran tries to engage you heads on without lame and drops and cheese. either keybind ur banes to a separeta key or take good care of ur banes. they must not stop and explode at the tanks or marauders. | ||
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foxlyfe
2 Posts
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lagbzz
Poland171 Posts
i think what helps most to improve in ZvT is to play games and play more games after. theres a huge amount of builds that works every game on every map and vs every opponent with terran - which is different with zerg. main reason would be the ability to wall off and the inability of zerg to break that wall. also whatever you do as zerg the terran will have an easy and quick answer to ur build. so lets say you try to bust his wall.. he ll grin and take the freewin. you get mutas - he has marines anyway and still can get thors, which make mutas completely useless in a group of 4 id say. you get infestors.. he ll have emp you get broodlords he ll make vikings which is a laugh for a counter to such an expensive unit. you get ultras then he ll just mass marauders.. again a joke for balance. so what you need is to hope for him to throw the game basicly. you can do alot to put pressure on him by scouting. the change of unit composition needs to be faster than his. and you have to take every chance to trade units(as long as you destroy his ball). if you can destroy 4 of his tanks in any situation, that can mean the game for you. armor upgrades seem to be very useful for me. and well try to get on train with the muta/ling/bling combo as long as its working. it does work alot especially if the terran tries to engage you heads on without lame and drops and cheese. either keybind ur banes to a separeta key or take good care of ur banes. they must not stop and explode at the tanks or marauders. Wow you're theorycrafting too much dood, you discribe here a perfect Terran with no flaws in his game and 100% accurate scans. First of all no T gets emp against infestors, second, vikings make him loose all that gas and supply he wants to get for tanks and bio. Third, no Terran will have 20 rax to produce pure marauder instantly for ultras. Ofc. if he is getting pure marauder from the beginning then don't go ultras no? Make a switch to mutas maybe, make him make another switch to marines, then get ultra infestor again, but im also theorycrafting now. All that balance theorycrafting looks so accurate on paper, there are hard counters to everything zerg does, drones die to harder wind blow, bla bla. Look at the pro level, and you will see that it's bullshit most of the time. Why do you refer to drops the same as cheese? They've been is sc since boxer era, and all you need to do is to watch the minimap which is one of the basics. Also, don't be afraid of getting overlord speed and placing them so you can spot for drop play. | ||
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navy
Canada197 Posts
I;ve given up on attacking the terran base entirely. So many terrans build missile turrets, 7 marines > 7 mutas for cost any day. just use your mutas for defense. Final composition is 3-5 Boordlords and no more, 8-10 corruptors to kill vikings. Infestors to fungal marines that come close, obligatory remaining mass of Ling/bling. I've started winning ~70% of ZvTs that go to macro games with this strat off of 3-4 base. Even if terran is expanding hard, just get this composition and attack. With good micro its very difficult to deal with as you can slowly pick away at the siegied army, and just run in with the ling bling if ever unsieges. When marines come up to attack your brood lords be ready to fungal. I dont think there is a good way for terran to deal with this composition without air dominance or ghosts and you just keep spamming corruptors if you see many vikings, and try to split your infestors agnstt ghosts | ||
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Farkinator
United States283 Posts
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Jaeng
Canada110 Posts
Has anyone been following Mr. bitters zerg v terran play? He recently showed it to Idra, and TLO plays this style as well. Skipping mutas all together and going for infestors. So infestor, ling, bane. Why does it work? The dreaded 10 tank w/ 50 marine push, you know its coming slowly but surely. Infestors allow you to slow them down while you get enough ling/bane, it also eats up medivac energy. Also if you have burrow you can throw infested terrans at the marine ball and the tank friendly fire will obliterate them. You can also stop medivacs from drops etc (however late game id get a few mutas to kill them off easier) Granted this doesnt stop the early pressure, but its a more mid-late game way of playing the game. I used to go mutas all the time, but thors and turrets just obliterate them as well if they push with marines/stim its just gg. Mostly cause ive invested too much into those mutas and have no lingbling. Also, yes the maps are p00 for zvt; cause of the chokes etc, but scouting is so key... knowing where the terran army is at all times is super important, using creep spread and sacing overlords is also something ive learned that has given me somewhat of a chance vs terran. Choosing when to engage as well, by knowing where the army is you can do a number of things, split your army and attack from both sides, or do runby's and go for his economy with ling/bling, as well as pick off tanks with mutas if you go that route. Hitting a terran head on when he has a tank line will never work  unless your army is triple the size its just not viable imo.Im only 3000+ diamond so i wouldnt say im good either but im trying to figure out this matchup like everyone else on this thread  *on another note: Navy above is right, its pointless hitting the terran base, you pretty much need to starve them, deny there 3rd and 4th. | ||
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biteMe
Germany241 Posts
Wow you're theorycrafting too much dood, you discribe here a perfect Terran with no flaws in his game and 100% accurate scans. First of all no T gets emp against infestors, second, vikings make him loose all that gas and supply he wants to get for tanks and bio. Third, no Terran will have 20 rax to produce pure marauder instantly for ultras. Ofc. if he is getting pure marauder from the beginning then don't go ultras no? Make a switch to mutas maybe, make him make another switch to marines, then get ultra infestor again, but im also theorycrafting now. All that balance theorycrafting looks so accurate on paper, there are hard counters to everything zerg does, drones die to harder wind blow, bla bla. Look at the pro level, and you will see that it's bullshit most of the time. Why do you refer to drops the same as cheese? They've been is sc since boxer era, and all you need to do is to watch the minimap which is one of the basics. Also, don't be afraid of getting overlord speed and placing them so you can spot for drop play. i can see you read the first half of my post and not the second one. i hope i made clear enough what i meant with putting that sentence in bold letters. all that qq is just the cycle of doom that you have to get out of as a zerg player sry i didnt point that out more clearly. | ||
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
When trying to defend 2 rax, don't think about your economy, your economy is useless if you end up dying to the bunker rush. A spine will be half way complete or fully complete by the time marines come to your base depending on the map. I'm finding more and more that a drone scout can really help you win games by determining 2 rax from any other opening. And yea T is not an automatic easy mode race, early pressure DOES come at a price. | ||
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193058 | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On February 21 2011 19:04 Trump wrote: Thought I'd pop in here for ideas since I'm a ~3600 masters terran and I have about a 25% win rate vs zerg. Here are my problems from my perspective. 1) My rushes (of any kind - bunker rush, 3 rax, 2 rax, marauder/hellion, hellions) are stopped because of either: spine crawlers, zerg simply building a lot of units, etc. Then, I fall behind on macro because the opponent is on 2 base and I am on 1. I have thus come to the conclusion that I cannot attack the zerg early. 2) My gimmicks (of any kind - banshees, blue flame hellion drop, thor drop) are stopped because an overlord is sacrificed and sees a key building (2 starports or armory or hellions) and then they prepare the perfect counter for it (queens, blocking ramp, anticipating drops). I have thus come to the conclusion that I cannot use a gimmick build on the zerg. 3) I cannot scout the zerg because they can catch any scouting unit that isn't flying with their speedlings. Scan is not only very expensive, but it often misses. The zerg has such a flexible number of options (from hard economy to hard rush -- harder than any other race's rush at ANY time they want to cut drones) that not being able to gather good intel on them is deadly and I find myself losing to all-ins a lot. I have thus needed to 'turtle' and cannot afford to do aggression out of fear of being caught out of position or being outmassed at any time. 4) The zerg can control the xel'naga watch towers between your base and theirs so easily with a zergling. If you chase it with a marine, they come back with 5 zerglings and eat it. If you chase it with 5 marines, they come back with 15 zerglings and eat your marines. If you move your entire army out to take the tower, then they flank you. 5) I lose to standard zerg play. The zerg unit composition of muta, baneling, zergling beats anything I can muster. Siege Tank / Marine looks so good on paper against it, but I get caught out of position with tanks and zerglings kill me. I don't have enough marines and mutas kill all the tanks. The banelings blow up my marines and mutas kill the tanks if the tanks are out of position. 6) Mutalisks keep you in your base. If you move out, your economy and buildings die. They macro up while they have just a few mutalisks poking in and out. If you build turrets to defend your base to move out, then they still find somewhere to poke and you've spent valuable resources and you can macro less well. You can't drop them because they have overlords around and then they chase your medivac down with mutalisks. 7) The creep spread. Their units are so powerful and fast on creep. You can't go on it or you get surrounded and die. They have perfect vision of their creep so there's no sneak attacks. 8) Their super units at the end game require very different counters. You get vikings, they get ultralisks, you lose. Speaking of ultralisks, it's one unit that doesn't really have a hard counter when coupled with the oh-so-great baneling. All in all, I'm a wreck against zerg. If I attack with anything, they're prepared and can pump out an army extremely quickly even if they start with nothing due to being able to see it coming. If I don't attack, they out macro me. Any time I actually attack, they are presented with the opportunity to flank my base so I have to attack quickly; however, if I attack too quickly, they are presented with the opportunity to tear my siege tanks to shreds. Scary stuff. Hope this inspires zerg. My "friend" is a 3300 masters terran on EU server and he has a simple tactic to kill zergs. 2 rax marine pressure then helion followup and then marine+tank. Kills most zergs. Trick is to have great timings and never let the zerg have a breather. | ||
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paksam
143 Posts
On February 22 2011 23:10 lagbzz wrote: Wow you're theorycrafting too much dood, you discribe here a perfect Terran with no flaws in his game and 100% accurate scans. First of all no T gets emp against infestors, second, vikings make him loose all that gas and supply he wants to get for tanks and bio. Third, no Terran will have 20 rax to produce pure marauder instantly for ultras. Ofc. if he is getting pure marauder from the beginning then don't go ultras no? Make a switch to mutas maybe, make him make another switch to marines, then get ultra infestor again, but im also theorycrafting now. All that balance theorycrafting looks so accurate on paper, there are hard counters to everything zerg does, drones die to harder wind blow, bla bla. Look at the pro level, and you will see that it's bullshit most of the time. Why do you refer to drops the same as cheese? They've been is sc since boxer era, and all you need to do is to watch the minimap which is one of the basics. Also, don't be afraid of getting overlord speed and placing them so you can spot for drop play. + Show Spoiler + your first point about infestors is not true, in the GSL earlier today ZenexByun used ghosts to specifically emp oGsZenio's infestors (at crucial times albeit) which essentially won him the game...other than that I agree with your comments. although i find that when I do get speed and place them around the map, they get killed pretty easily then that puts me in a panic; especially if hes about to push (since essentially killing ovs might supply block you, and you have to use larva to replace them with, leaving you with less larva for drones/army). Other than constantly scouting the opponent to gain information(because it is very hard for me to multitask since im a nub), What other things can I do to get over this panic? 'cause this is also a reason why I sometimes fall behind | ||
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Ayjayz
Australia17 Posts
In engagements, you really really want to surround with your lings. Just pick a good spot on the map, move your lings off to the flank and go for it. Once you do that, send in the blings and there are no marines. Once there are no marines, mutas destroy everything else. Zerg has much easier macro and way better vision of the opponents army, so there's no real reason to fail in your micro of the battle. Banelings are insanely efficient at killing marines, and mutas don't get touched by any other unit in the terran army, so you really don't even need that big an army to kill off an entire push. Abuse that fact, expand fast and hard, deny terran expansions and ZvT is pretty damn easy. | ||
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