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Hi all,
Recently I've not been able to win any games against zerg. PvP and PvT I'm doing fine, but I just seem to be missing something on how to win PvZ. I've tried 3gate robo expand, and my army was crushed by a mix of ultralisks, hydralisks, mutalisks and zerglings (not a very viable ZvP build). I've tried 3gate FE builds, and I get mowed down by overwhelming roach/ling count. I've tried robo timing attack builds, and before I can get into his base there is a mass of roaches on my doorstep. Should I be going for faster tech units, like colossi? Right now my army composition for most matchups is 1:1 stalker/zealot, with immortals and sentries mixed in. I'm guessing the reason i'm getting roflstomped by big armies is not because of my strategy but my army composition. Would colossi help against fast roach/zling builds? Or should I try a stargate build? Tell me what you think. I will try put some replays up.
PS: Silver league
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Make 25 probes, 4 gates, and attack at random times.
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Three gate sentry expand is really strong. In PvZ, you need to remember that if you apply no pressure to the zerg, they're free to drone up and their production overpowers you.
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On February 20 2011 09:09 [NoiSe] wrote:
Three gate sentry expand is really strong. In PvZ, you need to remember that if you apply no pressure to the zerg, they're free to drone up and their production overpowers you.
And by pressure he means taking control of towers, sniping tumors that haven't burrowed and getting TFO if Zerg ends up countering your poking because if you lose all those sentries it is game over
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Ultralisk? heh no wonder ure losing. You cant let zerg get to ultras, ife he can afford this hes probably outmacroing You at least twice. Start with 3 gate expand, get decent amount of sentrys, colo/HT(or both, but collosuss or high templar is a MUST HAVE vs zerg) and voids, couple tanking zealots will be fine as well. and apply pressure all the time, dont let him expand, use observers to see his army, kill creep tumors, harass with pheonixes.
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Thanks for replies people, I'll try out some of these strats next time.
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Look up some of incontrols lessons that have been posted on the forums. 3Gate expand relies on a few specific things
1. Shark mode as incontrol calls it.. Harassing forcing units instead of drones but not engaging to the point of losing ur first 8 sentries
2. Slow build up of collosi off of 1 robo while u take a 3rd..your never completely open to attack bc you mass collosi slowly and safely while taking a 3rd and still building gate units off of 4 gates
3. Push with four collosi.. Your. +1/+1 should be about done and you can keep zerg from saturating a 4th and add gates to buffer ur ground force as necessary
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i think PvZ, Zergs while whining alot, learn pretty fast to react properly to Protoss Strategys
(Protoss imho is very limited, in the sence of doing "surprise" attacks, due to their rigid techpath.
Which comes down into a later state of the game which is favored by Zergs, also they can be pretty aggressive if they want to, to hit some sick timing pushes.
This makes this matchup imho very dynamic. Since both sides can be very aggressiv, but also very passiv macroorientaded.
What seems "standard" and pretty popular right now is the 3 Gate Sentry Expand Build for Protoss.
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forge fe, wall off with cannon. by the time he can tech to something that breaks your wall you can have the tech unit of your choice to crush him. vr, colossi, blink stalker, and dt drops if you scout no detection are all viable off of it. plus to go 2base protoss vs 2 base zerg gives you a huge advantage.
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On February 20 2011 09:05 haegN wrote:
Make 25 probes, 4 gates, and attack at random times.
Yep, this is a good strategy, you can also try this with 5 gates!
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yea as other have pointed out, sentries can be very important. especially late game, i've found, when facing ultralisks. if you have collossus with range upgrade and can split the zerg army, you can have a lot of success. it obviously prevents the ultralisks being able to pound you as a single unit ball -- you can either forcefield them away or split them up and deal damage that way. i rarely do not go for collossus against zerg. if he makes a ton of corrupters, make more stalkers. if there's ultras, make more immortals, etc. and forcefield him to take advantage of collossus range.
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also scout to see when zerg is expanding and follow suit, or attack him early if you can while he expands. but i find it better to take your second a little after him while warping in units and teching to collossus or whatever.
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3 gate sentry expand is really, really solid. I think the problem lies in the execution thereof. Check the liquipedia page for tips, and be sure your timing is smooth.
Lots of sentries and gateway units in general will win you tons of games against zerg. I rarely tech to colossi.
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You need to scout around the 5-7 minute mark for any signs of roaches or a roach warren. If you see roaches, you need to drop a robo bay asap and make immortals. Later, you probably will have to switch into colosus to help fight hydras.
If you see pure lings, you need a twilight council, and possibly a stargate for phoenix to counter the mutas.
Also keep in mind, if you note the zerg fast expanding (pool first or not), you have a pretty big window to expand as well.
If you're struggling against roach ling, a normal sentry-stalker-zealot composition should be ale to take care of it effectively with proper force fields in the early game (immortals would be a bonus).
Doing a stargate opener (doing a 4 phoenix harass while expanding) is very very micro intensive. You need to have a decent APM in order to manage harassing with phoenix (killing queens and overlords) while expanding and continuing to macro.
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Stargate 2 gate opening with 1 void is beastly good, get zealots and sentries, then once that vr pops go attack and expand at the same time. Remember to split the queen away from the rest of the army using FFs and use your void to snipe those roaches, use 2 zlots to kill queen and the rest to focus down roaches/ hatch.
Any other questions? Add me, pglantas.961
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3gate sentry expand. The build was linked by someone up there. It'll feel awkward moving out with a mostly sentry army, but keep to the walls, keep your ball together and be generous with ff if you get speedling ambushed. Do not lose sentries at all costs.
Also, remember to check your replays for macro mistakes. I know when I start losing in a particular matchup my build execution starts slipping. No matter what you're doing make sure you're doing it right.
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On February 20 2011 13:41 ZUR1CH wrote:
yea as other have pointed out, sentries can be very important. especially late game, i've found, when facing ultralisks. if you have collossus with range upgrade and can split the zerg army, you can have a lot of success. it obviously prevents the ultralisks being able to pound you as a single unit ball -- you can either forcefield them away or split them up and deal damage that way. i rarely do not go for collossus against zerg. if he makes a ton of corrupters, make more stalkers. if there's ultras, make more immortals, etc. and forcefield him to take advantage of collossus range.
You know, ultras are massive so they break forcefields.
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Cheers people, I have cleared undervalued sentries in PvZ. I won a game beautifully with an 8 sentry harass, and even though I was sloppy keeping them alive I came back with a 16 warp gate charge on 4 bases. I guess its all about strat.
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On February 20 2011 09:05 haegN wrote:
Make 25 probes, 4 gates, and attack at random times.
Hurp durp. Shut up.
Somebody posted Incontrol's 3gate expand style that a lot of good Protoss are using these days. I highly recommend it.
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Yeah 4gate with low probe count is suicide when your opponent has 20 roaches on your doorstep at 7 minutes...
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On February 20 2011 09:17 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 09:09 [NoiSe] wrote:
Three gate sentry expand is really strong. In PvZ, you need to remember that if you apply no pressure to the zerg, they're free to drone up and their production overpowers you. And by pressure he means taking control of towers, sniping tumors that haven't burrowed and getting TFO if Zerg ends up countering your poking because if you lose all those sentries it is game over
it seems strong against an a zerg who doesn't know how to play this out.
But i am still not convinced that this Build can deal with Roachpushes good enough, while trying to keep that expansion up or against a hardmacroing Zerg.
Especially because of the Mindset (run around than back off)
If i as Zerg now this i either am aggressiv to kill your Sentrys
or i am free to drone.
Whole Strategy revolves under the assumption that Zerg will build units when he sees you running around (but won't engage) with your masses of Sentrys this as Zerg doesn't seem very smart at all, cause i know you are not going to commit to an attack with only Sentrys and no real DPS dealers.
Why should i do the worst response in building some units if i could either go All-in and mostlikly kill you, or drone hard to mostlikly kill later.
Could you with this Incontrol Build Commit to an Attack to force units, (but not knowing if he did build units already)?
(he could have also just been hiding his units and could flank you and kill you right there catching you out of position.)
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Considering that you said they had all those strong units the issue is probably that you are letting them get too strong of an economy.
Try and be more active with your army, use observers and probes to scout when he is expanding, when his expansion is either in progress or just finishing move out and force a cancel or kill it right as it finishes. Then move back.
Also sniping creep tumors is a good way to harm the zerg without sacrificing army.
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On February 23 2011 19:44 HavokTheorem wrote:
Yeah 4gate with low probe count is suicide when your opponent has 20 roaches on your doorstep at 7 minutes...
and how would a zerg manage to get 20 roaches at 7 minutes? oO
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If you are a silver league player then a simple build order will win you a silly amount of games. The 1gas 4warpgate is an incredibly basic build to pull off and will win games right up to the masters level once you understand it. It's not taxing on micro and is incredibly simple to execute.
The liquipedia has a still relevant article on this, the 1gas 4gate rush.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_Rush_(vs._Zerg)
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EPT
