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In this case, I mean macro-wise. I play Protoss, first of all. At max supply, I have tons and tons of resources to be spent, and I can't just get rid of it all at once on anything. I can't make any more units, and my supply is maxed, obviously, so no more Pylons, so what should I do? Attack and make more units to make up for the ones that die in the attack? Even then I have 2k-5k minerals left, so what am I doing wrong? If I can, I'll post a replay eventually, right now I'm not home.
Also, on the same subject, I was told to never attack into Terran armies. (Siege Tanks kinda melt my army.) What do I do in a PvT when I get to 200/200? I always feel compelled to attack, but when I do there are always just soooo many Siege Tanks, marines with Stim, etc.
Should I waste money on unit producing structures? Or just abuse the loads of Siege Tanks Terran may have and do some drops? Even then, what if their Siege Tanks/Missile Turrets are guarding the drop points?
Thank you whoever answers.
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throw more production buildings, preferably gateways since you can instantly warp in units and support your army...get upgrades...tech to your top notch units (carriers, etc) like get it ready with the fleet beacon and such.
for PvT you don't want to engage but if you see his tanks unseige, charge in b/c if T slowly pushes you and you don't attack, you will lose.
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For zerg, usually once you hit 200/200 u suicide it into the other player and then instantly remake 100 supply worth of units and attack again. This is called the 300/200 push. For Toss I feel it depends on the situation. Vs Zerg, it is advantageous for you to quickly strike out with the death ball, cuz if you engage at their base, they won't be able to reinforce very effectively, as their reinforcements will be pouring in from their 3rd and 4rth, which allow you to pick them off individually. Against Terran, if you feel that you have the macro advantage (more bases) go ahead and attack. If you don't, just turtle up and get upgrades and more warpgates.
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If you are maxed supply you have to be on at least 3 bases in which case the Terran is probably also unless they are terrible. Expand make more production and no one said you HAD to attack the terran main force. you can attack the Main/Natural/3rd where ever the terran army is not and since they have siege tanks i can bet the terran wont want to engage w/o them so you can afford to lose a few units since you can replace quickly. Also when im maxed out and on 3-4 bases i like to do a really quick tech switch to throw off the Terran lets say i was going the standard Collosus + Gateway support. I'll throw 3 SG down and start pumping out Void rays Terran does not expect it and bam total dominance,
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I think typical 200 P army (with collosus/storm) beats typical 200 T bio army head on fairly easily (unless some clutch EMPs). I don't think any ground army beats a 200 T mech army head on because of tanks and storm being much less effective so...figure out where the tanks aren't and attack! force tanks to unsiege and move.
and if you have crazy mins left, then build more production structures to replenish faster yeah. T is the slowest to replenish i think because no stockpiling larva/no chrono/no warp gate.
are you getting like every single upgrade too?
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I'm still learning, in bronze league atm, but in theory couldn't you build a few stargates and maybe some gateways to sink some of the money. Then attack with you're 200/200 army into the seige tanks adn do what damage you could. All the while using the startgates to build up VRs and stuff to counter the heavy Siege tank army? You could warp in your replacement gateway units but then instead of continuing a ground death ball you have transitioned to air to counter his heavy tank force?
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3/3/3
any other upgrade that you dont already have.
drop some zealots to free supply
prepare for a tach switch
throw down 10 extra gateways so you can instanly remake a 200/200 army.
any of the above
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On February 02 2011 04:38 Proto_Protoss wrote:
If you are maxed supply you have to be on at least 3 bases in which case the Terran is probably also unless they are terrible. Expand make more production and no one said you HAD to attack the terran main force. you can attack the Main/Natural/3rd where ever the terran army is not and since they have siege tanks i can bet the terran wont want to engage w/o them so you can afford to lose a few units since you can replace quickly. Also when im maxed out and on 3-4 bases i like to do a really quick tech switch to throw off the Terran lets say i was going the standard Collosus + Gateway support. I'll throw 3 SG down and start pumping out Void rays Terran does not expect it and bam total dominance,
doesn't terran usually have a ton of vikings by then? if you were going HT, that would be a tricky switch (no real reason for vikes, probably more marauders than marines).
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sc2 isnt a bad game, but i really dont like playing at 150+ supply... im a wc3 player, not used to seing more than 30-40 unit armies at all , and besides my pc cant show perfect fps in epic battles...
if you feel that you can avoid going lategame - try to do it. it doesnt favour protoss in my opinion anyways...
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Upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.
Drop them 3 forges (if you don't already have one) and send them all the upgrade.
Since both of you should have 200/200 army, if yours is upgraded you will have a big advantage (30% more damage!)
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On February 02 2011 04:45 Cyclone999 wrote:
Upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.
Drop them 3 forges (if you don't already have one) and send them all the upgrade.
Since both of you should have 200/200 army, if yours is upgraded you will have a big advantage (30% more damage!)
because the other side won't upgrade too lol
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On February 02 2011 04:46 underdawg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 04:45 Cyclone999 wrote:
Upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.
Drop them 3 forges (if you don't already have one) and send them all the upgrade.
Since both of you should have 200/200 army, if yours is upgraded you will have a big advantage (30% more damage!) because the other side won't upgrade too lol
Well in the lower leagues there's a good chance they may not. Heck people can forget.
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Calgary25998 Posts
It's very situational. If you are ahead and he isn't maxed then you can feel confident in attacking a Terran. If you are ahead and he is maxed then you can continue expanding, making more/different production facilities and using your mobility to harass. If you are behind and he is maxed then you can try expanding and defending for a drawn out game, or harassing with your mobility while expanding.
Summary: If you're ahead in bases / income then trade armies. If you're behind, stick to harassment and skirmishes only instead.
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Increase your infrastructure before you attack. This means expanding as well as just adding production facilities. Basically if you have a macro advantage its ok to trade units before maxing out to exploit your resource advantage while preventing him from maxing and getting to the point where he can increase his own infrastructure. You should have hit 3/3 before maxing by the way. Upgrades are probably the most underrated thing to a protoss... so crucial
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^ blasphemy. endgame toss army is strongest army. (edit: aimed this at unsaid, but missed my timing... lol >_>)
Basically, when you're maxed, there's largely 2 things you can do:
1. Replace low-tier units with high-tier power units
You do this by taking your low tier units, like stalkers, zealots, etc, and engaging in small battles (no commitment) with the aim to do damage while getting them killed (ie trade units). Whatever food you free up, you replace with end-game power units like colossus, void ray, carrier, high templar, archons, etc. Keep in mind, though, you're not outright sacrificing your units - if you do, you'll get killed. instead, you're trading them in for food and damage to your opponent.
2. Add crazy amounts of unit producing structures and keep the low-tier units
basically, take 5 bases, get like... 20 gateways, and keep throwing insane amounts of cheap, low-tier units at your opponent until he dies.
Remember to incorporate one of those two things into your end-game plan, and be on the ball with it. I've lost my fair share of games in the endgame because i had no idea what i was supposed to do, like unsaid's post above. The wrong thing to do, however, is to tell yourself what he said, because, frankly, that's how you not improve. you're basically guaranteeing yourself the loss once you fail to end the game in the midgame, which you often will when playing against good players. There's nothing wrong with winning with a super strong mid-game push, but there is everything wrong with being clueless when the push fails.
Edit:
Against Terran armies with tanks, basically attack where the tanks are not. Do a little drop here, a little void ray zapping there, send a DT or two somewhere. Chip away at his foundation and keep accumulating small advantages. Also, tanks aren't that scary when they're alone - if you see a tank or two unguarded, feel free to pick it off.
If you're against a bioball, go kill him. End-game toss army with templar and colo will rape terran bioball in equal food. feedback medivacs, storm marines.. you know the deal. make him engage in a choke and you have yourself a game won.
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On February 02 2011 04:51 Chill wrote:
It's very situational. If you are ahead and he isn't maxed then you can feel confident in attacking a Terran. If you are ahead and he is maxed then you can continue expanding, making more/different production facilities and using your mobility to harass. If you are behind and he is maxed then you can try expanding and defending for a drawn out game, or harassing with your mobility while expanding.
Summary: If you're ahead in bases / income then trade armies. If you're behind, stick to harassment and skirmishes only instead.
do you think you should trade armies with T mech though? obviously it doesn't have to be strictly efficient if you're ahead, but attacking a T mech army head on is just suicide.
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Apart of what has already been said, which is more important, you can build pylons to control the map.
This way you can spot drops easily and warp your new army at an unexpected location after an army trade. You might also be able to get a good flank or send enough units in his expansions to stop/slow a counter attack if the fight was not in your favor.
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With a typical Protoss army against a Zerg or a Terran going bio heavy, your army is a lot stronger, so the onus is on your opponent to attack. Don't let yourself get lured into bad positions, take more bases if you can, expand your production, get any upgrades you don't have that you may want later.
The problem lategame is that these cheaper and more fragile armies rebuild faster. If you lose an engagement, your opponent can rebuild faster than you and cause some serious problems. What's more, the things you'll be lacking most from your army (forcefields and Colossi) are key to the rest of your units functioning optimally. A traditional maxed Protoss army that gets killed off leaves you in especially bad shape. The key, then, is to not lose it, to replenish it as fast as possible, and force your opponent to do something they don't want to do (attack directly into you in good position). Their units are a lot less cost efficient, so in the war of attrition, they lose unless they have access to a lot more resources.
Of course, the scenario is essentially reversed if we're talking about Terran mech, or any army subjectively stronger than yours.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On February 02 2011 04:59 underdawg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 04:51 Chill wrote:
It's very situational. If you are ahead and he isn't maxed then you can feel confident in attacking a Terran. If you are ahead and he is maxed then you can continue expanding, making more/different production facilities and using your mobility to harass. If you are behind and he is maxed then you can try expanding and defending for a drawn out game, or harassing with your mobility while expanding.
Summary: If you're ahead in bases / income then trade armies. If you're behind, stick to harassment and skirmishes only instead. do you think you should trade armies with T mech though? obviously it doesn't have to be strictly efficient if you're ahead, but attacking a T mech army head on is just suicide.
I said trade armies, not attack a T mech army head on. No, obviously I don't think you should a-move into a sieged mech army.
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More gateways are always a good choice, that way you can reinforce an entire new army within seconds when your current army dies.
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On February 02 2011 04:37 ijoshjosh wrote:
For zerg, usually once you hit 200/200 u suicide it into the other player and then instantly remake 100 supply worth of units and attack again. This is called the 300/200 push.
This.
It is obviously "situational" (as Chill said) when doing anything, but as Zerg, this is one of your best bets. Don't just throw away your units but when you feel like you can do an even trade, go for it, cuz you'll most likely be able to re-macro and push your way into victory.
one thing to NEVER do though is just throw away units (unless you are freeing up supply of course). Best examples of this would be just throwing units at a strong point. I've seen IdrA go head long into a wall of supply depots and bunkers reinforced by a Planetary Fortress and lose everything. Just because you have economy and units doesn't mean it's necessary, there are usually better, more efficient ways to do it.
disclaimer: I am not an IdrA hater. It was just that one game that first came to mind when i think of over committing with a maxed out army simply because you have the resources to re-macro.
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More production buildings, upgrade everything, tech anything you haven't already.
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Spam production buildings (but not at your main in the case of a base-trade!)
Spam cannons! (not seen as much but I like doing it)
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In PvT if you're playing vs biotank or pure mech.
Vs Biotank you want to fight out of range of his tanks you can do this by exploiting his bases send a couple of blink stalkers or march your colossus up cliffs into his base, or storming mineral lines. You want him to unsiege and then you just charge.
Vs Puremech you want like 5 robos once you reach 4 bases so you can pump out a buttload of immortals, and the same goes for this again MOBILITY is your greatest weapon against tanks, and don't get scared if you get hit once but he has only like 2-3 at the location just roll it and run, and if it's really late game and you both split the map line the edge with 2-4 cannons so he can't drop.
Mobility+good decision making> tanks, the longer the game goes the more chance P has of winning don't be a dummy and be like O I HAZ MORE FOOD HEHE and charge him just be patient. You want him to unsiege or get himself into a bad concave/position.
And with your spare resources you should be constantly sending Dt's to expos just to make him uncomfortable or using speedprisms to drop storms on mineral lines. On 3 bases you should have like 10 Warpgates/2-3 robos and basically add 2 Warpgates 1 robo for each new base you get so you can instantly replenish any more.
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Along the lines of upgrading your army from low to high tier units, here is some interesting info. In terms of minerals and gas cost per food count, the first number is gas and minerals are equal. The second number I figured 1 gas = 2 mineral. The higher the number, the more bang for your 200 supply count buck you get. Obviously still take into account opponent army composition.
Zealot: 50 and 50
Stalker: 87.5 and 112.5
Sentry: 75 and 125
Dark Templar 125 and 187.5
High Templar 100 and 175
Immortal 87.5 and 112.5
Colossus 83.33 and 166.67
Phoenix: 125 and 175
Void Ray 133.3 and 183.33
Carrier 100 and 141.67
I hope there is at least one other person that this makes sense to. In essence, it's just saying the "army value" is higher if the 200 food count is filled with Void Rays, than if it's filled with Zealots. Again, opponents army composition is more important, but this hopefully offers something of value.
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You don't have "too many gateways" until about 100 because then you can literally warp In a 200 food army. But realistically you're going to have 70~ workers, 3-4 observers, 20-30 food of robotics/starport units and about 10 food worth of miscelleniois units (warp prisms, left over archons, etc...)
which means you actually have about 100~ food taken up by "stuff" and 100~ taken up by actual gateway units. If you have 50~ gateways, you can literally throw your gateway army at your opponent, rebuild it in 5 seconds, then push with your gateway+robotics/starport units essentially doing a 300 food push. If this push fails the warpgate cooldowns should be finished and you can push with another 100 food worth of troops immediately giving you what is essentially a 400food push.
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get every fricken upgrade you can to mke your 200/200 army feel like a 700/200 army because upgraded toss is SOOOOOO imfa lol. and get a crap ton more production facilities so you can do damage with your army and when it dies, you can instantly remake your 200/200 army again. take expansions (it seems redundant since ..im already maxed blah blah blah, but it really isnt.) More expos will 1) stop your opponent from having that expo and you will have more resources later to remake the army. send out unitsto all the expansions on the map and scout for his expansions, scout for openings and abuse them and hit him, and if you can see his army and you know your maxed army will either make him lose entirly our at least break even but you have the better economy - go for it and kill him. remember to REMACRO that army as it is dieing. This sometimes wont happen tho, in this case, harass his mineral line until he is significantly behind your economy and then go for the win.
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Upgrades, production facilities, hidden proxy pylons, and save a trust fund for a Protoss 300 food push.
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I always figured the P mineral sink was more Gateways...
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More unit producing structures, tech switch, upgrade.. Thanks guys! This'll help me a lot.
Also, I think I screwed up by not saying that it was exclusively the biotank Terran builds that were screwing me up. If a Terran doesn't incorporate Siege Tanks in his/her build at some point in the game, my army is going to walk all over them without even a second look. I have no problem with making more units that my opponent, it's just no matter how many units I have, those masses of Tanks are going to incinerate my ground units, and of course Vikings are taking away any air.
Seriously though, thank you guys for all your answers and insight, I'll definitely take this to ladder with me, and hopefully win more against this composition!
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If you play protoss and you get to max supply, chances are your army is going to be much more powerful than your opponents army. In this case, it doesn't hurt to spend your money on
1) More production facilities (gateways). This will allow you to quickly remax your army once your opponent eventually engages you.
2) Upgrades! Throwing down another forge and constantly chronoboosting them will make your maxed army even more devastating.
3) More bases. Make sure you have even saturation at all of your bases in order to maximize your income.
4) Higher tech. Investing in the fleetbeacon so you can get a mothership out will turn the tide of battle in your favor, especially if the engagement does not go as well as you would have liked. Also, getting the dark shrine if you haven't already gotten it is great for taking out your opponents production and tech late game.
5) Cannons. Spamming cannons to defend your tech, your fortified defensive position, as well as your new bases will help you immensely in defending.
Finally, this is just my preference, but once I get maxed out, I don't attack the opponent. I make sure that I have the best possible defensive position, so when the opponent eventually attacks me, I crush it, remax, and finish it off.
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I expand to every spot on the map, cover it in pylons, get up to 20 gates, and make at least 4 robos or stargates, cannon up the tech and mineral lines, and harass.
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As a Protoss, when I reach 200/200, I basically do everything [NoiSe] does, so I guess I'll elaborate.
I get a ton more warpgates; enough that I can throw my army away and instantly get a respectable one back. I also like to throw down a bunch of stargates to transition into void rays/carriers once I free up supply. Upgrades, air as well, not forgetting shields. Expanding a ton, and getting any tech I can think of, so that I'll be able to respond to anything my opponent throws at me.
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I figure terran should make more orbitals suicide/combat with SCVs to free up supply since MULEs are supply free
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On February 02 2011 10:18 Blasterion wrote:
I figure terran should make more orbitals suicide/combat with SCVs to free up supply since MULEs are supply free
Or bring all of them into a fight and make them mass repair. that also works.
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EPT
