[H] I just can't beat Z... (PvZ) - Page 2

Arisen

United States2382 Posts

December 22 2010 09:42 GMT

#21

On December 22 2010 18:31 BROotogy wrote:
WTF! I didn't know this wowwwww... I played bw and I guessed SC2 would be the same, guess not lol. So what you're telling me is that you can hotkey 2 nexuses and make probes without selecting each one? Mind = Blown honestly. Can you do this with warp gates too?

Thanks for all the help btw, I read all your posts and I'm making notes. That game that I made two Dark shrines because I forgot I already built one, and I know these are all pretty bad mistakes. I really don't like using HT's that much because their storm isn't as strong as it was on BW. Do you think eventually I should get a few HT's mixed in with my army? Is it worth it?

Yes you can do that with gates as well. A popular setup is nexus on 4 (so 3 base its 4eee) and gates on 5 (5 s shift spam click in a psi field), robo or star on 6. So hotkey one to whatever number, then select another one, shift #, repeat, or if you can select all at once, just control #

As to HT, that's totally up to you. They are good units (feedback can totally shut down drops) but if you can't control it effectively because your hands aren't fast enough, I'd say for now don't worry about them. Storm is still ridiculously awesome, though granted not as good as in bw. I can tell you that you probably shouldn't waste minerals on the templar archive if you don't plan on using them. Don't get something you can't use just because.

Glad you found out now about the hotkey thing so you can get in that habit now and have a good hotkey setup.

BROotogy

Eritrea149 Posts

December 22 2010 10:02 GMT

#22

What would yall suggest to fend off banelings?

Buruguduy

Philippines238 Posts

December 22 2010 10:03 GMT

#23

Forcefield and map awareness.

ZeNd0kUn

United States331 Posts

December 22 2010 10:11 GMT

#24

Hmm the thread suddenly took a shift to PvT ... but anyways you seem like you'll be out of Bronze very very soon. With your BW background, you know when to plop down a Nexus and transfer probes. I watched the game on Metalopolis and saw you had 4 mining bases at 20 minutes while Terran was struggling to get a second. Since you won both those games it's a bit hard to actually comment on them. It actually makes me want to comment on the Terran play.

I guess what you need now is probably know how many tech buildings you should make and when and what army composition you need and how to use it.

And as far as Macro goes, of course there's so much you can improve to become a top level player, but obviously you're way ahead of your bronze companions. You know how to get the money and the gas, how you use them will be the next problem to solve and practice.

Blink Stalkers are best used in situations such as chasing Mutas and dropships. In some cases they do well when blinking into seige tanks. Blink Micro when rushing blink stalkers against Zerg or even Protoss is also popular.

High Templars are awesome against Terran .. learning to use them is a must and a recommendation. It's Collossi vs Viking and HT vs Ghost wars in PvT and to become better you need to learn both. Storms may not be as strong as in BW, but they are still strong and so many Terrans are even calling it IMBA ( rather the amulet upgrade which allows instant warp and storming ). So yeah learn to use them, and in my opinion they're a bit more micro intensive than Collossi since there's Feedbacking and making Archons etc whereas Collossi is mainly standing back out of harm's way and abusing range with thermal lance.

Yeah you can hotkey gateways as well as use the W key for warps and you don't even need to use shift to warp a bunch of units, just pressing down S and left clicking in the pylon field warps in stalkers. So it is with FFs, press down F and left click consecutively to create a wall.

Yeah and post more PvZ's you lose if you can. As far as Banelings are concerned, I've seen them being used when busting cannons and in Zealot heavy armies. Otherwise I don't see them as much in PvZ and I guess this is where Blink excels if you army is stalker heavy.

Arolis

United States496 Posts

December 22 2010 12:22 GMT

#25

Ok here is some general stuff on decision making and macro. There isn't a line that divides good macro and good decisions, they encompass each other. Macro simply means spending money. How you spend your money is where the decision making comes into play. There are 3 things that you can do to macro: build an economy, build an army and build tech. How aggressively you pursue 1 thing will cut into what you can do with the other 2. And usually doing 2 of these things significantly sacrifices the third thing. If you tech and build an army you can't really make probes as fast as possible and it'll be more difficult to find the resources to expand. If you build an army and expand you'll have no money to tech. And if you tech a lot while expanding you won't have the resources to build a good sized army.

In the first game you were hyper-aggressive in teching. There is no way you could ever have a good size army throwing out that much tech. Especially when you put a tech building down then attack before the tech is finished. What purpose did the tech building serve or what did you foresee in the future that warranted teching and attacking at the same time? There is no way you could have a sufficient army while doing this. Don't tech and attack at the same time unless you need a key piece of tech to keep from dying. For example if you 4 warpgate against a terran and he opens with fast cloaked banshees you should immediately tech to observers or you'll just lose. Tech, let it finish, utilize the tech in your army, then attack.

So let's look at it from the zerg's perspective. Zerg got 5 upgrades the whole game and didn't build any building he didn't utilize. So his tech was leaner compared to yours. Looking at the drone saturation his economy was garbage compared to yours. So that means he devoted the bulk of his macro to building an army. Was it a good army? Actually it was crap too, but let's call it 'good enough'.

Your economy is amazing. I think it's better than some platinum level players. But you need to STOP TECHING SO MUCH. You asked what the counter to roaches were. Well in that game the counter to roaches was an army. Build an army. An army of what? Doesn't matter. Any army built with your economy would have smashed that zerg. As long as it's an army that utilizes the most out of that economy. Some people are saying that intelligent decisions are a better answer to some situations than blindly building an army. Well the rebuttal to that is that good macro informs you of what decisions are even possible to make. 8 warpgates, 1 of every non-stargate tech and 2 forges upgrading is super not possible off 2 bases. But you wouldn't know that without good macro. Build an army. And keep building an army. Want to know how MarineKingPrime wins? He builds an army of Marines. You might think it's because he's awesome at splitting his Marines to take minimal damage from banelings, but the only way he knew he could get away with that is by being really really good at constantly building an army. Good macro informed him of the possibility of overwhelming zergs with good micro.

Lastly, I'd like to echo the same advice a lot of people have said about colossus. Colossus deal damage, everything else serves to protect the colossus. Zealots, stalkers, sentries, immortals, phoenix, your first born child, those neighbors you don't really like... everything serves as a meatshield to the colossus. And every time you get colossus also get range. There are far fewer instances where not getting range is a better idea than getting range.

Distrust

5 Posts

December 22 2010 19:05 GMT

#26

Hmm, but I heard that when you blink stalkers it makes whatever is shooting them lose which one it was shooting so they stay alive later? Either way I'll stop blinking, its become a habit and I'm trying to break it.

I made a replay for you using the unit testing map on Blink micro.

1st example: How to micro properly. 8 Stalkers vs 16 Marines. All stalkers live.
2nd example: Blink into. 8 Stalkers vs 16 marines. 3 Stalkers live.
3rd example: Regular attack walk. 8 Stalkers vs 16 Marines. 2 Stalkers live.
4th example: How to micro properly. 8 Stalkers vs 9 Roaches. 7 Stalkers live.
5th example: Blink into. 3 Roaches win.

http://hotfile.com/dl/91281478/03c7a97/BlinkMicro.SC2Replay.html

Replay sites wouldn't let me upload custom games.

I just did this without practice or any well thought out procedures, I.E it's possible to easily have all stalkers survive on the 4th example.

I discovered something pretty interesting.

Blinking INTO marines actually wouldn't cause marine DPS to increase, but would increase DPS of stalkers. Stalkers damage occurs when the beam hits. That travel time of the beam is used to determine DPS. However, marines shoot bullets, which the game engine registers as instant.

Roaches on the other hand, have the same problem as stalkers. They rely on the acid spray to actually hit the target before damage is calculated. When you close the gap, both DPS party increases... but Roach balls are stronger than Stalker balls.

Anyways, the whole point of this was to show you proper blink micro. The lesson is to stop blinking into the opponents army. Just let your units attack. All the replays I've watched of you, your battles would of been won easily if you just attacked walk and focused on re-enforcing the army.

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

December 22 2010 19:09 GMT

#27

On December 23 2010 04:05 Distrust wrote:

Show nested quote +

How does the projectile covering less distance translate into better DPS? Stalkers have a constant rate of fire, like all units, so DPS is not dependent on anything except the number of times the unit fires per unit time, which should be the same regardless.

I can understand if range is an issue where units are not firing, but there is no justification for blinking on top of units as you describe.

Quixxotik

United States54 Posts

December 22 2010 20:43 GMT

#28

The answer to your problems.

Hehehe.

MrStorkie

United Kingdom697 Posts

December 24 2010 05:50 GMT

#29

You are a pretty good player actually.. once you get use to the macro hotkey/mechanics, you'll be in diamond in no time.

I don't have much to add to all the ridiculously good quality comments above. Good luck and gg.

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