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[H] Defending against 2rax play. - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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1Lamb1Rice
Profile Joined August 2010
United States435 Posts
December 15 2010 18:08 GMT
#21
I'm a 2500Z, I could use some help against 2rax openers too. Msg me anytime.

LambNRice.381
twitch.tv/lambnrice @LambNRice
Skrag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States643 Posts
December 16 2010 01:29 GMT
#22
On December 16 2010 01:25 telfire wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2010 07:09 Numy wrote:I believe this thread isn't about defending 2 rax by 14 hatch. It's about trying out different builds to defend 2rax. So really this post was pointless. So is this one


Well, there are no other ways if the T micros correctly. And even with 14 hatch you have to micro much much better than T. But the general consensus among pros is that you simply won't have enough larva to defend unless you 14 hatch, it's a straight up build order loss.


There are a few pool-first builds that *appear* to generate more larvae than 14hatch. I say "appear", because there's a possible inconsistency in the testing method.

But 11overpool and 13h15p both appear to generate more larvae than 14 hatch builds.
"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
December 16 2010 01:48 GMT
#23
also you might try
early hatch + early pool to get earlier queens+ spawned larvae + hatch. e.g. 12h12p, 10h13p or 2extractor-12hatch-ovie-11pool. costs some eco, but is easier to defend and feels still like a hatch first build. Earlier pool+queen make up somewhat for initial larvae loss caused by mineral accumulation.

would just be curious if this works in high level play ..
21 is half the truth
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
December 16 2010 18:00 GMT
#24
Saracen.276 if you need more testing. I can be either T or Z.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
December 16 2010 18:31 GMT
#25
On December 16 2010 01:20 mlbrandow wrote:
Judging from the replays you posted, you are definitely a better zerg player than I am, and so I hope you take this advice well:


make a roach warren and stop trying to maintain this delusion that fast expanding is better than 1-basing in every possible situation.

I watched 3 replays and saw a lot of poor decision-making that I would never do, and I am by no means an expert player.

Slow banelings vs. stimmed marines and marauders, and forcing an expansion when you see 5-10 SCVs accompanying a rush is just really poor teching.

You force muta/bane/ling against a guy who 1-bases with predominantly marine production.


In one replay your opponent said "5/7RR crushes this" and he's absolutely right. You can 7RR at 4:45 with 15 drones and it would be a cost win every time.

Your unreasonable commitment to fast expanding, forcing ling/bling/muta and your refusal to make an extra queen for transfuse and creep spread are what doom you consistently in these games.


When I play terran, I usually stick to a lot of marine heavy aggression, and the reason it works is because many players simply fail to adapt. You tech because you feel like you should, but almost every lair/hive unit is hard countered by stimmed marines.


Again, just make a roach warren. It's completely okay to one-base. Those bunkers are by no means invincible. And ESPECIALLY if you have an expansion up, why do you need to force aggression ON what is a failed bunker push (because of the creep).




Conclusion: You're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. You're forcing a certain tech tree and an expansion when you know exactly that your opponent is committing to 1-base play, forever giving him the army advantage. You lose consistently because of this, and instead of changing your operating condition (must maximize personal economy), you force yourself into what is really a no-win situation.

You should be aware that denying your opponent's economy is as good or better than maximizing your own economy. Start thinking by "how can I earn and maintain an economic advantage over my opponent?" The answer, believe it or not, does not always reside in fast expanding and making the smallest possible army.

P.S. - While I disagree with a lot of what you post, I appreciate the high value that such threads as these hold in this forum and community. If more people operated their threads in this way, the world would be a better place! Thanks again for all your time and effort in this and other discussion threads.


Thanks for the advice... Unfortunately I think roach rushes are just too cheesy and sacrifice too much early economy for the damage they deal, which against strong, scouting opponents is usually very little. I am purposefully testing a risky build (hatch first against 2rax) because I am trying to determine if it is possible to defend, and how. I obviously wouldn't do this on ladder or in a tournament scenario lol... We are just practicing.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Hurkyl
Profile Joined October 2010
304 Posts
December 19 2010 01:34 GMT
#26
On December 15 2010 05:32 jdseemoreglass wrote:Note: Please don't post here criticizing the players abilities or the map chosen, etc. We are just playing some practice games, not having a theorycraft debate.

REPLAYS:
[spoiler]
lGy Series: lGy is an extremely skilled 2800+ Terran. I was determined to defend 14Hatch against his 2rax all-in, but I didn't succeed.
Results: 14 Hatch 0-6
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

If you would like commentary on these three games:

For the first one, I think the most significant feature is that your delay gave the Terran time to create a wall in front of your natural. Then when you attacked, you attacked through the choke point in the wall, rather than making the short trip around the wall.


For the second one, I wonder if you hurt yourself by attacking the SCVs instead of the Marines. Also, after he threw away the last of the SCVs in his rush, you gave up too early. The game basically reset to the beginning, but with you having Pool + Hatch + Spine and him having 2*Barracks + Orbital + stockpiled minerals. So it's him making 3.5 SCV per minute with Mule support versus you making 8 Drones per minute (more once you get a queen again and your Drone count recovers).


The third one, I noticed you wasted a good bit of time with 3 Larvae on your main Hatchery. Also, attacking with just Zerglings and no Drones was an ill-fated choice.
TylerDurden275
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada86 Posts
December 19 2010 02:05 GMT
#27
this is a great idea. i am also looking for a high rank diamond terran to do this with me.
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