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Replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-169994.jpg)
I was going to open tanks, but I scouted a hatch before pool. I don't know what more "standard" responses are to this, but I decided to switch to 3 rax and get marines over asap. I think the biggest thing that I'm not sure about this game is how much I should commit to early pressure; is this something I should just try to do a little damage and back off, or should I pull most of my scvs with my attack?
Things I'm not sure about:
I'm not sure if I should have taken out the overlord before going to the zerg's base (is it worth the delay)?
Should I have brought more SCVs? (I don't know why I kept changing my mind about bunkers.)
What do I prioritize? Taking out the expo or trying to deal damage in the main? I wasn't really sure in game, and realized when I was watching the replay that the hatch was down to 300 and I likely could've taken it out.
After my pressure failed, my first priority was to expo. I was also worried about his mass of lings/banes, and was expecting mutas to come out (and they did). I saw drones transferring to his 2nd expo, but I didn't really feel that there was a way for me to take that out. What could I have done differently here, and was there something I should've been focusing on?
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If you see hatch before pool 12 rax and 14 rax skip OC for a lil, and build some bunkers right at the point that the hatch cant see the bunker but ur rines can shoot from bunker and hit hatch, If the zerg doesn't see you, you kill his hatch and are ahead.....
Punish them if they Hatch b4 pool with a bunker rush!
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Well if you want to be picky, there were a few times where you weren't perfect with your macro in the beginning (pauses between marines being built with plenty of cash, when your initial marines got to his expo they sat around for about 5 seconds...). All of that would have given you a little more time to do damage before he got lings and blings out. I feel like the best thing would have been to focus on one thing and get out, especially when you saw he was pumping lings and blings. Focus down the expo and go home- he's already invested a lot in that expo and now he's wasting larva, which should put you far ahead of him
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To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T.
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I like opening double rax, that way if he is 14 hatching I can put pressure. If he doesn't than I just build double gas and tech to either thor or I try my luck w/ banshees while massing the shit out of marines for a timed push.
Still learning the game and I don't play as much as I'd like especially with CATA one week away, but tbh I don't think I've won one game TvZ if it went over 20min. Basically if you don't win fast, it's really unlikely you'll win at all, unless the zerg is just bad imo.
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Pretty sure early Overlords are always worth killing. Supply blocking him when he only has drones will really delay him from trying to get units out in time to defend.
Whether you want to pull Scvs off or not is up to you (i would if there is no banelings out and you know your marines will be fine with a scv meat shield)
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I 12 rax 14 rax 16 OC every game vs zerg. Every game. Safest, most economical opening. I get 2 rax + expo at 27, and just gotta scout well + bunker up if need be to protect yourself. Get double gas, tech lab, and fac with some tanks and roll man
2270 terran. I don't do any other open in tvz to start, at least. It forces many things that delay the lair until a bit later for bling speed, a good thing.
Shakuras, no. I got a special strat for shakuras. Imba mech build. Jungle basin, a hard one, because it's a free expo. Even still, I enjoy a 12/14 rax even just to have 5-6 marines to poke around with, pick off OLs, scouting lings, etc.
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On November 30 2010 06:36 EmilA wrote:
To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T.
Against zerg I scout with a SCV when my depot is roughly 40% done. So i get in his base and see if he is getting gas or not, If he gets no gas I leave my SCV out by his nat so I can for sure see his expo. And yes I believe it can be pulled off on far spawns if it is done correctly. Just a little harder :-//
With what jeff said above, On jungle if you toss down 2 bunkers at same time at bottem of ramp you can block reinforcements from comming to save the hatch, the tricky part is sneaking 2 SCV's to bottem of ramp without the zergie seeing it.
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On November 30 2010 06:36 EmilA wrote:
To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T.
9 scv scout fixes this very nicely. That begining information is so crucial that a 9 scout makes up for it nicely.
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Overlord kills especially when they're going hatch first are HUGE!!! Definitely stop to kill them! Sometimes it may not be worth it but most of the time it should help you rather than hurt you.
Deciding whether you want to "all-in" or just do a little safe, almost guaranteed pressure/harass/damage is up to you. What you "should" do in Starcraft is go for the smaller, guaranteed advantages, but since this is early on and you could just kill him off, it really is up to you whether you want to take that risk and pull SCVs off.
A good tip for if you do want to pull all or most your SCVs off however is to do so after you've already mined enough for a OC, so that while your SCVs are gone you will have that big fat MULE mining a ton of minerals for you.
The key in killing of your opponent with a few rines / SCVs is splitting up his two bases. Either try to stand in the ramp where surface area is most reduced and you can block entry for the Zerg between his bases, or do something else like put down 2 bunkers at his ramp (be ready to salvage right before they die! although you should be able to repair and keep them from dying).
Meanwhile the key for the Zerg to defend is to have began pumping zerglings early enough, and ideally to spread some creep, forcing your rines/SCVs to have to dance back and forth further away from his base due to any zerglings that may be able to pick your force off, which will give him time to put up some Spines (which marines suck against without stim).
A game with a SCV all in doesn't take long however so you should be able to practice yourself  . Also what you are looking for on the ladder can help you decide whether to take the risk or not... for example if scv/rine all-in gives you the same winrate as just pressuring him with a couple early marines, you could just go with the all-in to get more games into your ladder.
TL;DR
Priorities
1. SPLIT the two zerg bases apart
2. Pursuing zerglings/drones
3. Hatchery (natural) when you have time to (see Priority #2)
Edit: for the small guaranteed damage, pulling of just 2-3 scvs is totally fine.
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On November 30 2010 06:57 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:36 EmilA wrote:
To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T. 9 scv scout fixes this very nicely. That begining information is so crucial that a 9 scout makes up for it nicely.
I find 9 scout makes my rax feel late, lol. By like 12 seconds, trivial, but I'm set in my ways. I 13 scout vs zerg, because really what cheese is there?
By nature, 12 rax 14 rax and supply at ramp blocks before a 7 pool (on blistering sands had it done blind) That's also my personal preference. On jungle, I'd abuse the back door. Early marauder/hellion push could be dirty if you sneak in the back door.
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Most of you are mentioning splitting the two bases apart, well, almost any diamond zerg, and probably plat will use a drone to patrol below his ramp, and when he thinks things are getting strange (more than 1 scv coming) he just sends more drones to make sure nothing happens. More and more its getting harder to stop the zerg, i didnt watch your replay but i would recommend just expanding with the zerg and teching to thor marauder and blue flame, and if you can a few siege tanks it will make a huge difference when you push. Also if that was a ladder game, as terran i would really recommend taking blistering sands off your map pool xD
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On November 30 2010 08:34 iAmNovA wrote:
Most of you are mentioning splitting the two bases apart, well, almost any diamond zerg, and probably plat will use a drone to patrol below his ramp, and when he thinks things are getting strange (more than 1 scv coming) he just sends more drones to make sure nothing happens. More and more its getting harder to stop the zerg, i didnt watch your replay but i would recommend just expanding with the zerg and teching to thor marauder and blue flame, and if you can a few siege tanks it will make a huge difference when you push. Also if that was a ladder game, as terran i would really recommend taking blistering sands off your map pool xD
Way off. I know and face 2-2.4k zergs that don't have drone at ramp, OR even overlord at hatchery. I love people that say any diamond or plat ___race___ does something. Are you at either level? It's a generalization that few rarely follow.
So, let me say it again, I'm 2270some, and have faced 1, read one, zerg that had a drone outside his ramp to prevent a dual bunker.
One.
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Okay, thanks for all the advice! I've got a lot better idea of what to do in future games now.
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On November 30 2010 06:16 Bonkerz wrote:
If you see hatch before pool 12 rax and 14 rax skip OC for a lil, and build some bunkers right at the point that the hatch cant see the bunker but ur rines can shoot from bunker and hit hatch, If the zerg doesn't see you, you kill his hatch and are ahead.....
Punish them if they Hatch b4 pool with a bunker rush!
Thats impossible. No matter where you put your bunker, as long as it is within range, it will be noticed.
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Well, as a zerg player myself, if i play terran, the only difficulty i have when trying to early hatch is just early marine/scv pressure. You don't really need that many SCV's off of the mineral line, only about 3 or 4 to tank the damage. Some people even have the scv's repair each other. Bunkers are a viable solution as well. The only way you could deny the early hatch is to try to put a lot of early pressure on the zerg player to force him to make more and more zerglings, making his drone count much lower, and you will most likely pull ahead.
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On some maps you can just squish your marines in the triangle formed by the ramp and main and then have your SCVs hold position repair in front of them. :-\
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On November 30 2010 07:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:57 XXXSmOke wrote:On November 30 2010 06:36 EmilA wrote:
To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T. 9 scv scout fixes this very nicely. That begining information is so crucial that a 9 scout makes up for it nicely. I find 9 scout makes my rax feel late, lol. By like 12 seconds, trivial, but I'm set in my ways. I 13 scout vs zerg, because really what cheese is there? By nature, 12 rax 14 rax and supply at ramp blocks before a 7 pool (on blistering sands had it done blind) That's also my personal preference. On jungle, I'd abuse the back door. Early marauder/hellion push could be dirty if you sneak in the back door.
12 seconds is worth it. The 9 scout is not for cheese, well it can be if he 6 pools although this is very rare. You should try it, it gives you such good intel, it is extremely important to know if the Z is going hatch or pool first as soon as possible so you can react accordingly. Its also awesome to sometimes put an engi bay down on the Z's nat, 9 scv makes this alot more plausible.
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On November 30 2010 09:21 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 08:34 iAmNovA wrote:
Most of you are mentioning splitting the two bases apart, well, almost any diamond zerg, and probably plat will use a drone to patrol below his ramp, and when he thinks things are getting strange (more than 1 scv coming) he just sends more drones to make sure nothing happens. More and more its getting harder to stop the zerg, i didnt watch your replay but i would recommend just expanding with the zerg and teching to thor marauder and blue flame, and if you can a few siege tanks it will make a huge difference when you push. Also if that was a ladder game, as terran i would really recommend taking blistering sands off your map pool xD Way off. I know and face 2-2.4k zergs that don't have drone at ramp, OR even overlord at hatchery. I love people that say any diamond or plat ___race___ does something. Are you at either level? It's a generalization that few rarely follow. So, let me say it again, I'm 2270some, and have faced 1, read one, zerg that had a drone outside his ramp to prevent a dual bunker. One.
You sir are very lucky, im low diamond right now but all im playing is 2k+ zergs, and everyone of them has a drone at their ramp and ALWAYS and overlord at their hatch
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On November 30 2010 09:24 FuzzyLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:16 Bonkerz wrote:
If you see hatch before pool 12 rax and 14 rax skip OC for a lil, and build some bunkers right at the point that the hatch cant see the bunker but ur rines can shoot from bunker and hit hatch, If the zerg doesn't see you, you kill his hatch and are ahead.....
Punish them if they Hatch b4 pool with a bunker rush! Thats impossible. No matter where you put your bunker, as long as it is within range, it will be noticed.
Well your wrong. If your hatch is still building the bunker can build out of its sight and still be in range..
//Get Rocked
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On November 30 2010 11:34 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 09:24 FuzzyLord wrote:On November 30 2010 06:16 Bonkerz wrote:
If you see hatch before pool 12 rax and 14 rax skip OC for a lil, and build some bunkers right at the point that the hatch cant see the bunker but ur rines can shoot from bunker and hit hatch, If the zerg doesn't see you, you kill his hatch and are ahead.....
Punish them if they Hatch b4 pool with a bunker rush! Thats impossible. No matter where you put your bunker, as long as it is within range, it will be noticed. Well your wrong. If your hatch is still building the bunker can build out of its sight and still be in range.. //Get Rocked
I'm pretty sure he means with an overlord over it to spot for bunkers.
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On November 30 2010 11:35 iAmNovA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 11:34 Bonkerz wrote:On November 30 2010 09:24 FuzzyLord wrote:On November 30 2010 06:16 Bonkerz wrote:
If you see hatch before pool 12 rax and 14 rax skip OC for a lil, and build some bunkers right at the point that the hatch cant see the bunker but ur rines can shoot from bunker and hit hatch, If the zerg doesn't see you, you kill his hatch and are ahead.....
Punish them if they Hatch b4 pool with a bunker rush! Thats impossible. No matter where you put your bunker, as long as it is within range, it will be noticed. Well your wrong. If your hatch is still building the bunker can build out of its sight and still be in range.. //Get Rocked I'm pretty sure he means with an overlord over it to spot for bunkers.
So every zerg puts a overlord over there nat???
I don't think he means that tho.
Either way I feel good about myself
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I have to agree with Jeffrey. I rarely run into a successful bunker defense at the ramp. The thing is, I don't alert zerg to my presence though until the scvs are already building the bunkers. If there is a risk of a 6-pool, I will scout properly. Otherwise I stay outside of overlord or hatch range until my rax is finished. It works a lot, but it isn't helping my tvz game in general.
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If Starcraft were rock, paper, scissors then 14 hatch would be paper and 2rax would be scissors. I think the SCV rush/all-in with marine stutter step micro is the best way to go about doing 2rax aggression. I think it's easier and safer than bunker rushing but that's just me.
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These days every zerg has an overlord at their second hatch and many 2000+ have a drone at their ramp, but I wouldn't say its the majority. I am wondering if because I scout after depot this tips some off that they dont have to bother.
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What BO do you guys do for 2 rax pressure?
Just say short distance and you see zerg goes 14 hatch.
Ive been playing around with a lot of builds but none successful...
Do you bunker or no? and if you do bunker do you bunker @ ramp or near expansion.
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On November 30 2010 09:24 FuzzyLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:16 Bonkerz wrote:
If you see hatch before pool 12 rax and 14 rax skip OC for a lil, and build some bunkers right at the point that the hatch cant see the bunker but ur rines can shoot from bunker and hit hatch, If the zerg doesn't see you, you kill his hatch and are ahead.....
Punish them if they Hatch b4 pool with a bunker rush! Thats impossible. No matter where you put your bunker, as long as it is within range, it will be noticed.
WIthout overlord over the hatch, no it won't. Building range =/ equal 6, which is what a marine in a bunker is. I do it all the time, building buildings don't have enough sight to see.
These days every zerg has an overlord at their second hatch and many 2000+ have a drone at their ramp, but I wouldn't say its the majority. I am wondering if because I scout after depot this tips some off that they dont have to bother.
Wrong. I still play 2.2+ zergs that STILL do neither. Good theorycraft tho. Most zergs refuse to put a drone at patrol on ramp, infact I've seen it just once. Even still, until they get punished over and over for it, many STILL don't put one over their hatch -- and if they do, there's still blind spots.
Guy asking for the build, it's up to you when you cut scvs, I don't.
10 supply 12 rax 14 rax 15 scv 16 Oc 16 supply continue pumping marines and scvs, CC starts at 27-28.
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Question - I also try to do 2rax pressure if I see any type of fast expand, but what do you guys transition to if it fails?
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On December 01 2010 04:59 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Guy asking for the build, it's up to you when you cut scvs, I don't.
10 supply 12 rax 14 rax 15 scv 16 Oc 16 supply continue pumping marines and scvs, CC starts at 27-28.
Hm yeah, when do u generally feel is a good time to move out and with how many scvs/marines? And do you bunker ramp or just go for the kills.
I guess BO is the easy part and decision making/micro-ing is what really makes the difference…Im about 2200 T aswell and I feel if I can add this to my builds I can punish Z’s who FE..
You mentioned you went 27 double rax in an earlier post? Did you mean double refinery? Because another issue I have is transitioning, I usually go some thor/banshee mix with mass marines while constant drop harass but transtioning from double rax if you aren’t macro-ing well while early pressure can be brutal!
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OH ya, after I feel marines ran their course early game, I double refinery and turtle to get a couple tanks out.
I go at like 3 marines, no scvs cept for the two that build the barracks and the scouting SCV. Then I keep rallying marines until he pushes me back. You successfully made him make a lot of zerglings, and 1-2 sunkens for nothing but minerals.
I never have a set time for any push or strategy, I go based on feel. If I feel he doesn't react well enough, I'll wait for 8-10 marines and go again, and drop the expo, 2 more rax or dual refinery, and go again, and go again. Until he pushes back with banes, slings, or roaches, keep going.
Thats me, at least. I'm a weird guy
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i find bunker rush to be a bit risky if the zerg has any common sense so i usually use a standard
12ref
13rax
factory as rax finishes
now when the factory finishes tech lab and make 4 hellions while blue flame upgrades
at around 5:30 you should have 1 gas for a starport where you get ready for the tech switch to banshees because his only response to hellions can be roaches or you win.
4 hellion push if done perfectly can be sorted by 6:20-6:30 where the zerg basicaly has no units to defend unless hes paranoid and has cut probes but regardless if he gets lings its still easy pickings for the hellions. Works very well in the early game as long as you micro your hellions well because you have to constantly keep his drone count low or it will all become pointless. after about 8-9 mins in you should have begun building an expo and then just switch out to stim marines/tank ready for the muta tech (always happens).
This build if the zerg isnt prepared can usually end the game but if it doesnt then you should be on economic terms with the zerg to keep up with him. remember to almost constantly build hellions because the you want to harass him to death with hellions/banshee to try gain an advantage. Note that this only works well against FE but in diamond almost every zerg is greedy so 
Can put a replay in if you want. try build as many marines as possible if he ries a counter attack with roaches (bunkers etc) which should be quite fine but make sure to get your expansion up on around the 8-10min mark.
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On December 01 2010 05:42 WaZz wrote:i find bunker rush to be a bit risky if the zerg has any common sense so i usually use a standard 12ref 13rax factory as rax finishes now when the factory finishes tech lab and make 4 hellions while blue flame upgrades at around 5:30 you should have 1 gas for a starport where you get ready for the tech switch to banshees because his only response to hellions can be roaches or you win. 4 hellion push if done perfectly can be sorted by 6:20-6:30 where the zerg basicaly has no units to defend unless hes paranoid and has cut probes but regardless if he gets lings its still easy pickings for the hellions. Works very well in the early game as long as you micro your hellions well because you have to constantly keep his drone count low or it will all become pointless. after about 8-9 mins in you should have begun building an expo and then just switch out to stim marines/tank ready for the muta tech (always happens). This build if the zerg isnt prepared can usually end the game but if it doesnt then you should be on economic terms with the zerg to keep up with him. remember to almost constantly build hellions because the you want to harass him to death with hellions/banshee to try gain an advantage. Note that this only works well against FE but in diamond almost every zerg is greedy so Can put a replay in if you want. try build as many marines as possible if he ries a counter attack with roaches (bunkers etc) which should be quite fine but make sure to get your expansion up on around the 8-10min mark.
This seems semi-all in with your hellions. If he puts up good spine crawlers and ur hellions do no economic dmage u r going to have to play a huge catch up game
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if he doesnt know what you are going then the chance is the max he'll put up is 1 spine crawler that you can just skip around into the main and melt the drons there. unless your opponent knows exactly what you are up to will he be able to perfectly defend against it but most people arent keen on spending a lot of minerals on semi static defenses (spine crawlers compared to zerglings). Also would like to say that if your macro is top notch that for the second push (usually right after first unless he dealt with the hellions swiftly) will be able to keep his defences and drone count low and by around 7-8mins you should have 2 banshees with cloak out ready. All im trying to say is that you'll usually do good damage unless he somehow knows exactly what you are doing and prepares for it all
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EPT
