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Replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-169994.jpg)
I was going to open tanks, but I scouted a hatch before pool. I don't know what more "standard" responses are to this, but I decided to switch to 3 rax and get marines over asap. I think the biggest thing that I'm not sure about this game is how much I should commit to early pressure; is this something I should just try to do a little damage and back off, or should I pull most of my scvs with my attack?
Things I'm not sure about:
I'm not sure if I should have taken out the overlord before going to the zerg's base (is it worth the delay)?
Should I have brought more SCVs? (I don't know why I kept changing my mind about bunkers.)
What do I prioritize? Taking out the expo or trying to deal damage in the main? I wasn't really sure in game, and realized when I was watching the replay that the hatch was down to 300 and I likely could've taken it out.
After my pressure failed, my first priority was to expo. I was also worried about his mass of lings/banes, and was expecting mutas to come out (and they did). I saw drones transferring to his 2nd expo, but I didn't really feel that there was a way for me to take that out. What could I have done differently here, and was there something I should've been focusing on?
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If you see hatch before pool 12 rax and 14 rax skip OC for a lil, and build some bunkers right at the point that the hatch cant see the bunker but ur rines can shoot from bunker and hit hatch, If the zerg doesn't see you, you kill his hatch and are ahead.....
Punish them if they Hatch b4 pool with a bunker rush!
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Well if you want to be picky, there were a few times where you weren't perfect with your macro in the beginning (pauses between marines being built with plenty of cash, when your initial marines got to his expo they sat around for about 5 seconds...). All of that would have given you a little more time to do damage before he got lings and blings out. I feel like the best thing would have been to focus on one thing and get out, especially when you saw he was pumping lings and blings. Focus down the expo and go home- he's already invested a lot in that expo and now he's wasting larva, which should put you far ahead of him
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To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T.
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I like opening double rax, that way if he is 14 hatching I can put pressure. If he doesn't than I just build double gas and tech to either thor or I try my luck w/ banshees while massing the shit out of marines for a timed push.
Still learning the game and I don't play as much as I'd like especially with CATA one week away, but tbh I don't think I've won one game TvZ if it went over 20min. Basically if you don't win fast, it's really unlikely you'll win at all, unless the zerg is just bad imo.
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Pretty sure early Overlords are always worth killing. Supply blocking him when he only has drones will really delay him from trying to get units out in time to defend.
Whether you want to pull Scvs off or not is up to you (i would if there is no banelings out and you know your marines will be fine with a scv meat shield)
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I 12 rax 14 rax 16 OC every game vs zerg. Every game. Safest, most economical opening. I get 2 rax + expo at 27, and just gotta scout well + bunker up if need be to protect yourself. Get double gas, tech lab, and fac with some tanks and roll man
2270 terran. I don't do any other open in tvz to start, at least. It forces many things that delay the lair until a bit later for bling speed, a good thing.
Shakuras, no. I got a special strat for shakuras. Imba mech build. Jungle basin, a hard one, because it's a free expo. Even still, I enjoy a 12/14 rax even just to have 5-6 marines to poke around with, pick off OLs, scouting lings, etc.
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On November 30 2010 06:36 EmilA wrote:
To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T.
Against zerg I scout with a SCV when my depot is roughly 40% done. So i get in his base and see if he is getting gas or not, If he gets no gas I leave my SCV out by his nat so I can for sure see his expo. And yes I believe it can be pulled off on far spawns if it is done correctly. Just a little harder :-//
With what jeff said above, On jungle if you toss down 2 bunkers at same time at bottem of ramp you can block reinforcements from comming to save the hatch, the tricky part is sneaking 2 SCV's to bottem of ramp without the zergie seeing it.
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On November 30 2010 06:36 EmilA wrote:
To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T.
9 scv scout fixes this very nicely. That begining information is so crucial that a 9 scout makes up for it nicely.
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Overlord kills especially when they're going hatch first are HUGE!!! Definitely stop to kill them! Sometimes it may not be worth it but most of the time it should help you rather than hurt you.
Deciding whether you want to "all-in" or just do a little safe, almost guaranteed pressure/harass/damage is up to you. What you "should" do in Starcraft is go for the smaller, guaranteed advantages, but since this is early on and you could just kill him off, it really is up to you whether you want to take that risk and pull SCVs off.
A good tip for if you do want to pull all or most your SCVs off however is to do so after you've already mined enough for a OC, so that while your SCVs are gone you will have that big fat MULE mining a ton of minerals for you.
The key in killing of your opponent with a few rines / SCVs is splitting up his two bases. Either try to stand in the ramp where surface area is most reduced and you can block entry for the Zerg between his bases, or do something else like put down 2 bunkers at his ramp (be ready to salvage right before they die! although you should be able to repair and keep them from dying).
Meanwhile the key for the Zerg to defend is to have began pumping zerglings early enough, and ideally to spread some creep, forcing your rines/SCVs to have to dance back and forth further away from his base due to any zerglings that may be able to pick your force off, which will give him time to put up some Spines (which marines suck against without stim).
A game with a SCV all in doesn't take long however so you should be able to practice yourself  . Also what you are looking for on the ladder can help you decide whether to take the risk or not... for example if scv/rine all-in gives you the same winrate as just pressuring him with a couple early marines, you could just go with the all-in to get more games into your ladder.
TL;DR
Priorities
1. SPLIT the two zerg bases apart
2. Pursuing zerglings/drones
3. Hatchery (natural) when you have time to (see Priority #2)
Edit: for the small guaranteed damage, pulling of just 2-3 scvs is totally fine.
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On November 30 2010 06:57 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:36 EmilA wrote:
To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T. 9 scv scout fixes this very nicely. That begining information is so crucial that a 9 scout makes up for it nicely.
I find 9 scout makes my rax feel late, lol. By like 12 seconds, trivial, but I'm set in my ways. I 13 scout vs zerg, because really what cheese is there?
By nature, 12 rax 14 rax and supply at ramp blocks before a 7 pool (on blistering sands had it done blind) That's also my personal preference. On jungle, I'd abuse the back door. Early marauder/hellion push could be dirty if you sneak in the back door.
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Most of you are mentioning splitting the two bases apart, well, almost any diamond zerg, and probably plat will use a drone to patrol below his ramp, and when he thinks things are getting strange (more than 1 scv coming) he just sends more drones to make sure nothing happens. More and more its getting harder to stop the zerg, i didnt watch your replay but i would recommend just expanding with the zerg and teching to thor marauder and blue flame, and if you can a few siege tanks it will make a huge difference when you push. Also if that was a ladder game, as terran i would really recommend taking blistering sands off your map pool xD
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On November 30 2010 08:34 iAmNovA wrote:
Most of you are mentioning splitting the two bases apart, well, almost any diamond zerg, and probably plat will use a drone to patrol below his ramp, and when he thinks things are getting strange (more than 1 scv coming) he just sends more drones to make sure nothing happens. More and more its getting harder to stop the zerg, i didnt watch your replay but i would recommend just expanding with the zerg and teching to thor marauder and blue flame, and if you can a few siege tanks it will make a huge difference when you push. Also if that was a ladder game, as terran i would really recommend taking blistering sands off your map pool xD
Way off. I know and face 2-2.4k zergs that don't have drone at ramp, OR even overlord at hatchery. I love people that say any diamond or plat ___race___ does something. Are you at either level? It's a generalization that few rarely follow.
So, let me say it again, I'm 2270some, and have faced 1, read one, zerg that had a drone outside his ramp to prevent a dual bunker.
One.
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Okay, thanks for all the advice! I've got a lot better idea of what to do in future games now.
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On November 30 2010 06:16 Bonkerz wrote:
If you see hatch before pool 12 rax and 14 rax skip OC for a lil, and build some bunkers right at the point that the hatch cant see the bunker but ur rines can shoot from bunker and hit hatch, If the zerg doesn't see you, you kill his hatch and are ahead.....
Punish them if they Hatch b4 pool with a bunker rush!
Thats impossible. No matter where you put your bunker, as long as it is within range, it will be noticed.
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Well, as a zerg player myself, if i play terran, the only difficulty i have when trying to early hatch is just early marine/scv pressure. You don't really need that many SCV's off of the mineral line, only about 3 or 4 to tank the damage. Some people even have the scv's repair each other. Bunkers are a viable solution as well. The only way you could deny the early hatch is to try to put a lot of early pressure on the zerg player to force him to make more and more zerglings, making his drone count much lower, and you will most likely pull ahead.
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On some maps you can just squish your marines in the triangle formed by the ramp and main and then have your SCVs hold position repair in front of them. :-\
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On November 30 2010 07:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:57 XXXSmOke wrote:On November 30 2010 06:36 EmilA wrote:
To avoid making another thread about the same subject I'll ask a question here:
Do you guys commit to the 12-14 rax before you've scouted your opponent? I mean if you send out the SD SCV as a scout you're not certain to find your opponent before you've reached 14 food.
Also, do you feel 12-14 rax can be pulled off on very far spawns such as metal, shakuras and possibly jungle basin?
2450 diamond T. 9 scv scout fixes this very nicely. That begining information is so crucial that a 9 scout makes up for it nicely. I find 9 scout makes my rax feel late, lol. By like 12 seconds, trivial, but I'm set in my ways. I 13 scout vs zerg, because really what cheese is there? By nature, 12 rax 14 rax and supply at ramp blocks before a 7 pool (on blistering sands had it done blind) That's also my personal preference. On jungle, I'd abuse the back door. Early marauder/hellion push could be dirty if you sneak in the back door.
12 seconds is worth it. The 9 scout is not for cheese, well it can be if he 6 pools although this is very rare. You should try it, it gives you such good intel, it is extremely important to know if the Z is going hatch or pool first as soon as possible so you can react accordingly. Its also awesome to sometimes put an engi bay down on the Z's nat, 9 scv makes this alot more plausible.
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On November 30 2010 09:21 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 08:34 iAmNovA wrote:
Most of you are mentioning splitting the two bases apart, well, almost any diamond zerg, and probably plat will use a drone to patrol below his ramp, and when he thinks things are getting strange (more than 1 scv coming) he just sends more drones to make sure nothing happens. More and more its getting harder to stop the zerg, i didnt watch your replay but i would recommend just expanding with the zerg and teching to thor marauder and blue flame, and if you can a few siege tanks it will make a huge difference when you push. Also if that was a ladder game, as terran i would really recommend taking blistering sands off your map pool xD Way off. I know and face 2-2.4k zergs that don't have drone at ramp, OR even overlord at hatchery. I love people that say any diamond or plat ___race___ does something. Are you at either level? It's a generalization that few rarely follow. So, let me say it again, I'm 2270some, and have faced 1, read one, zerg that had a drone outside his ramp to prevent a dual bunker. One.
You sir are very lucky, im low diamond right now but all im playing is 2k+ zergs, and everyone of them has a drone at their ramp and ALWAYS and overlord at their hatch
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On November 30 2010 09:24 FuzzyLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:16 Bonkerz wrote:
If you see hatch before pool 12 rax and 14 rax skip OC for a lil, and build some bunkers right at the point that the hatch cant see the bunker but ur rines can shoot from bunker and hit hatch, If the zerg doesn't see you, you kill his hatch and are ahead.....
Punish them if they Hatch b4 pool with a bunker rush! Thats impossible. No matter where you put your bunker, as long as it is within range, it will be noticed.
Well your wrong. If your hatch is still building the bunker can build out of its sight and still be in range..
//Get Rocked
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EPT
