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Background: I'm a crappy 1400 level diamond protoss with a little over 350 bonus points. I'm not great at macro, I'm not good at micro. My APM averages 30-40 in mid game. I'm old (36) and played sc/bw when they came out for about 2 years, and played all through beta. At this point I get my wins through making good decisions and not by click speed. If every one of my clicks doesn't do something good and I don't select the right build I lose.
Enter this game vs RoboTeddy: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=34026
Now, RoboTeddy is my better at every aspect of the game from what I can tell. But a big problem in that game is I just don't know what to do vs the early 1 marauder 1 marine aggression, followed by constant reinforcement. I pull probes but can never seem to get and edge in unit number or composition, while RoboTeddy not only pressures me hard he macros up and expands. I know I made a mistake moving out once he eased up a little, but at that point he already had the game won I think?
Would someone please take a look and tell me the right decision/BO etc to handle this? I am at a loss here. Micro tips would help as well. But please keep in mind my APM is pretty fixed at this point and if I micro something, I'm not gonna macro somewhere else so it has to win me more on the battlefield than it loses me in the production queue.
Thanks so much if you choose to look at the replay and help!
Also, I apologize for the BM whining I use in game when I paraphrase Idra's infamous 'apologize for playing that race and all the free wins it got you' quote.
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Sorry I didn't have time to look at your replay but the general reply to any Terran Bio aggression would be to FF your ramp until you get your tech up.
If it is just 1 marauder and 1 marine, that is really easy to stop, just have a zealot and stalker out by about the same time. There are possibly a handful of BOs to get the same number of units out, especially since their units have to walk across the map. If you are still having problems vs very early low number aggression, try chronoboosting your gateways.
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Going to watch the replay once GSL finishes. I'd rename your replays before posting them. It's very helpful to others who want to watch it.
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just watched the replay.
With that kind of game, the problem is not always the large - I think you made the right general decisions on most things (I do think you should have mixed in zealots with the stalkers to tank - pure marauder vs pure stalker does not remotely favor stalkers). I didn't watch precise build order or supply blocks or anything obvious like that - so if you f'd that up its a problem. But I'm gonna assume your timings were good all in all and your money was low and shit.
Pulling only 4 probes off the line was one of those split second decisions that counted. I'm not sure if it was 'right' or 'wrong' but it turned out to be 100% correct given how he responded.
There are a lot of little things - 1 - you need to watch the mini map like a fucking hawk - especially with low apm - you need to anticipate as much as possible.
2 - your positioning on the stalkers at 7 minutes was awful. If he pushed up - you were going to lose both stalkers because you had no early warning. Which is exactly what happened. They should have been behind buildings and ideally behind some kind of meat shield.
In very small numbers - concussive shell micro is beast. Your goal is to get to the point where its very difficult to individually micro them. Your goal in those very early fights was not to win, it was not even to kill his units. It was to minimize the amount of damage you were taking so you could mass together more units. To that goal, 100% stalkers were not the best call - at least 1-2 zealots were needed to absorb damage and ... not die. You needed stalkers behind them to keep opponent in check - not to attack. I'd even suggest a sentry (again, light armor means they're spending more shots killing it).
Other than that - its more about careful positioning and small split second decisions. But be clear about your goal - in those kinds of very small numbers - your goal vs marauder is just to minimize the damage you're taking until there are enough units that the opponent cannot individually target them.
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A few things I would clean-up:
1. Hotkey your gateways and check they are always producing. This is HUGE early on - your 1st stalker was VERY late as your gw was idle for almost an entire minute between 3:30 and 4:30. You should have had AT LEAST another stalker out by the time his push arrived, with another unit close to done. Same thing right after your 1st stalker popped, you forgot to build another unit for a good while.
2. Hotkey your units so you can react faster & don't have to watch them all the time.
3. Improve your unit positioning. On temple stalkers can usually get some free shots off if they stay on high ground.
4. Adding a zealot or two to tank damage helps a lot - stalkers lose 1v1 against marauders.
Other advice:
If you see early pressure it could be good not to get your 2nd gas that early. In fact, even without pressure I'd recommend not getting a fast 2nd gas and instead expanding at around 30 food.
You did not get a 10 gate, so generally don't sent your 1st zealot in by itself; wait for a CB stalker, then poke up his ramp - it makes it harder for terran to kite your zealot.
Hope this helps, good luck with your games.
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lowly platinum here, but from what I can tell you and I have similar APMs, so perhaps I can help. Against terran I generally get a sentry out ASAP. It's either the first thing I build after cybernetics or the second. Usually the first. If a watchtower covers the attack path I'll position a probe there if I can. If that isn't an option I simply put one outside my base. This gives me that much more warning when an attack is imminent. Then it's all forcefields all the time. As a side note, if I scout the double barracks build, once my second gateway is up I start getting the tech for high templar. This also lets me get charge, making my zealots that much more effective- [url blocked] theres a replay for THAT build, if it helps. I forget how early his pressure was, so perhaps it won't.
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Is there a reason why you went zealot before core? also is there a reason why you boosted the zealot? boosting a stalker is fine, but i dont see the pressing need for a fast zeal against terran.
You had enough money/gas to build a sentry + another gateway right after your stalker finished. i would recommend you consider that next time. as an early sentry can stall long enough for warp gates and while it sits around it will generate a lot of energy. Which will be helpful to ward off the eventual Stim timing push.
i didn't watch the rest of the game, in my opinion nothing after 4:00 matters i just think you were pressured hard because of a bad build order at the start.
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DDerby hits the important points, everything is just a little slower than it needs to be. Try and work on getting your probes moving before you have the money to build whatever you're building, pylons, your first gateway, and your cybercore all are being built before your probe gets to where you're building them. Getting the timing down early on your builds can make a huge difference. I think the terran just having a tighter build is what cost you that game, though moving your army to attack his instead of letting him come up the ramp and FF his army to split it was also a pretty big mistake.
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On November 25 2010 15:29 MarkIV wrote:Background: I'm a crappy 1400 level diamond protoss with a little over 350 bonus points. I'm not great at macro, I'm not good at micro. My APM averages 30-40 in mid game. I'm old (36) and played sc/bw when they came out for about 2 years, and played all through beta. At this point I get my wins through making good decisions and not by click speed. If every one of my clicks doesn't do something good and I don't select the right build I lose. Enter this game vs RoboTeddy: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=34026Now, RoboTeddy is my better at every aspect of the game from what I can tell. But a big problem in that game is I just don't know what to do vs the early 1 marauder 1 marine aggression, followed by constant reinforcement. I pull probes but can never seem to get and edge in unit number or composition, while RoboTeddy not only pressures me hard he macros up and expands. I know I made a mistake moving out once he eased up a little, but at that point he already had the game won I think? Would someone please take a look and tell me the right decision/BO etc to handle this? I am at a loss here. Micro tips would help as well. But please keep in mind my APM is pretty fixed at this point and if I micro something, I'm not gonna macro somewhere else so it has to win me more on the battlefield than it loses me in the production queue. Thanks so much if you choose to look at the replay and help! Also, I apologize for the BM whining I use in game when I paraphrase Idra's infamous 'apologize for playing that race and all the free wins it got you' quote.
okay I watched the replay up to the point where that rush came. 22 Cybercore wont cut it against terran. You really need to put that down at 17 and build the zealot with your next 100 minerals. In this case, you built it right away, threw it away and then was down a unit when the push was at your door. Im sure you probably saw a gosu player send the zealot straight to the base to pick off marines and scvs, but here is the key difference between what they do and what you did here... they keep their scouting probe alive and in the opponents base long enough to see if an attachment is going down on that barracks. If you are good about it, you can micro around a marine and either still survive or get way more information than before. Keep your scouting probe alive and in their base as long as you possibly can, but expect to lose it... if you dont, great, but if you had kept him in there you would have seen that he did what many terrans do, 1 marine to try to deny scouting, 1 tech lab. Probes are faster than rines so it will be good micro practice to survive vs them and still build back at home.
So you threw away that early zealot that would have never even gone in had you seen the tech lab with good scouting. At worst, you delay the tech lab if theyre paranoid about it and your zealot still gets in. Another thing with that zeal you threw away... once you saw he didnt have concussive, you should have ran him home. By then you had all the information you needed: that he has a tech labbed rax...
Okay, again I have to reiterate your cyber core needs to come before your first zealot begins production. With your opener that means making it exactly on 17. The reason being is not only does it open up more tech options more quickly and make you less predictable, but you need the COMBINATION of zealot/stalker to defend early MM pressure. Both unit types are essential or you will get rolled because neither is good on its own. Another thing is, despite that fast zealot... you stopped all production from the gateway for quite a long time after it came out, waiting to build a stalker. Your goal should be to constantly produce from it. WIth a 17 cybercore you will have about 5 seconds downtime between your first zealot popping and your ability to queue up a stalker. That should really be the only time you are not producing from your gateway.
Take a look at any top AMERICAN player and how they use their gateways/warpgates. They constantly produce from them early game to have a bunch of shit out and try to cause not too much overlap around the warpgate research timing. With warpgates once they finish they warp in units.. and if they cant use all 4 they let resources trickly in and warp in more. Very rarely will you ever see a warpgate on cooldown for very long because if it IS then it is making even less units than a normal gateway could. DOnt forget, you have that cooldown on your units, but it takes 5 seconds for the unit to warp in. The warpgate is as much a curse as it is a benefit during some stages of the game. You need to constantly hit W and constantly build units.
As for 50 food pushes and stuff, its important IMO to have exactly 2 sentries out by that time: one for forcefield zoning, and one for guardian shield. The zoning you do doesnt have to be this huge pro wall in the back that you see in the bigger fights, it just has to force them to go a direction they dont want to. For instance if they push into your natural at your spawn point there and in trying to avoid taking damage from the cliff they hug the impassable terrain connecting to the gold expansion. Your zealots should attack from the area more towards your cliff/your base, your sentries should create a choke behind the MM ball up against that impassable terrain. All of a sudden your zealots barely have to close any space and can get mini surround or block off 3 or 4 units from running, netting free kills and ultimately letting you survive the push. It really doesnt matter where you put the stalkers.
Watching a bit more of the replay I noticed you are attacking without your groups of units together when you defend. You should let your gateways tank a bit of damage while you group your units and dont send everything in separately.
Edit: I almost came back and deleted this because watching the end of the game proved you are little whiny punk. Trying to run those proves to build pylons and shit before his computer shut down? Thats really lame dude especially after you lost. I'll leave this up for the benefit of any other protoss having trouble vs. early bio that it may help but honestly grow up, no ones gonna care about your ladder points or record at any point in time ever so theres no need to be a douche.
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It's so easy man. You make sentries, a lot of them. Focus your eye near the ramp. force field the ramp whenever he tries to run up. Cut his army in half or just completely block the ramp. 4 gates or 3 gates +robo[immortal+observer] or 3 gate + stargate[voidray] then push out when you feel like it.
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Thank you for the help jayrod, that post was the most useful reply. I got pissed because he asked me to leave before he beat me, I do BM for BM.
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Stop building stalkers after you use the first one to scout. Use your first stalker to poke up the terran's ramp if you saw he walled off. Do not let your stalker lose health (shields are fine). Build sentries until you see he moves out. Then start pumping zealots. I like to open 3 gate robo or 1 gate expand into 3gate robo, depending on positions and whether I see T get a second rax before second depot. Make lots of sentries, then chrono your gates and make lots of zealots. I like to have 5-6 sentries before I start zealot production but if you see he is attacking, make zealots instead. Stalkers aren't very good against either marines or marauders. Maybe make 2 stalkers for support. The key to early game is sentry usage. Zealots are very good and quite cost efficient against marauders and marines if they can't kite. The sentry zealot combo is also extremely cost efficient since one unit takes only minerals while the other is mostly gas.
The point is stop building stalkers. They are not good against terran early game and this is one of the reasons why some p players think marauders are OP. If you see the terran get a factory which signals either hellions or starport though, you are probably going to need stalkers. But from your post I gathered you were having trouble with infantry mostly.
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I don't get this. Why are stalkers not good vs marauders?
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Because Marauders do more damage to stalkers than stalkers to marauders? Equal range, and marauders can slow...
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Sorry but has anyone tested this? 1v1 Marauder vs Stalker, who will win? It seems like they will both die at the same time.
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On December 06 2010 00:44 DragoNite wrote:
Sorry but has anyone tested this? 1v1 Marauder vs Stalker, who will win? It seems like they will both die at the same time.
oh god I needed that this morning
rofl
Marauder wins, easy.
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Marauders do 10+10 versus stalkers, stalkers do 10+4. Marauders shoot faster and can stim to shoot far faster than a stalker. Even though stalkers have more hp, a marauder can still kill them easily. Stalkers can walk faster normally, but marauders can stim to catch them, and snare them with concussive shells. Stalkers also cost more.
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@OP
Although APM does become a factor as you get better, there are plenty of ways to hone your game simply by knowing what you want to do and executing it promptly. For example:
Your cybernetics core was 30 seconds too late. In close positions, the threat of early pressure is obviously more significant, so if you wanted to stop him at the door with Cybercore tech, then you need it ASAP. Keep an eye on the gateway that you should've hotkeyed, and when it's seconds away from being completed, send a probe out and build the core immediately.
Constantly make probes, even when you're being harassed. Especially if you're using them to fight. Once he got ahead of your probe count and production capabilities, you'd already lost the game.
Also, you didn't need two gas to fight off marine/marauder harass. you just wound up stockpiling useless gas. How many forcefields did you actually use?
Oh, and don't fight him straight up unless you have zealots. Otherwise, just keep cutting his army down as he tries to bust your ramp, splitting them with FF whenever you can.
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On December 06 2010 00:44 DragoNite wrote:
Sorry but has anyone tested this? 1v1 Marauder vs Stalker, who will win? It seems like they will both die at the same time.
Yeah as Resistentialism posted, the advantage of Marauders is they do heavy damage against armored unit types, which the Stalker counts as. Whilst the Stalker also has a damage increase, it isn't nearly as big as the Marauders and with the equal range the Stalker will lose the fight.
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On December 06 2010 01:20 Resistentialism wrote:
Marauders do 10+10 versus stalkers, stalkers do 10+4. Marauders shoot faster and can stim to shoot far faster than a stalker. Even though stalkers have more hp, a marauder can still kill them easily. Stalkers can walk faster normally, but marauders can stim to catch them, and snare them with concussive shells. Stalkers also cost more. Stalkers actually have a 1.44 cooldown tot the marauder's 1.5.
Regardless, about the stalker issue, stalkers are terrible in a dps role, just terrible. For cost their dps is just completely unimpressive, even their hitpoints are, just like phoenices, stalkers are not meant for that, just put it in perspective:
1: They can attack both air and ground
2: They are the fastest ground ranged unit in the game, they are called stalkers for a reason, you can almost never out-run them.
3: They can be warped in across the map, may sound a little weird, but I reckon that all protoss gateway units are a little bad for their cost, to compensate for the fact that we can re-enforce them everywhere we want, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
So if these guys had good dps and health for cost, we would only ever see stalkers only. I mean, together with that they can also attack, they would be completely all-round, I agree, stalkers are weak for cost, and this is a good decision from blizzard which shows that they aren't naïve about game balancing.
Furthermore, I would say that all Protoss T1 units are indeed weak for cost (with the notable exception of the probe of course, that thing is completely OP), and this is for a good reason, we have the sentry to compensate.
Imagine if protoss could beat terran or zerg without use of the sentry, surely then with the sentry protoss would be totally overpowered? The sentry gives you a huge defender's and offenders advantage, snipe a zerg expo while forcefielding the ramp. Being able to turtle in against a terran until he has the thors to stomp them, guardian shield being huge against mutalisks or marines.
So yeah, use the sentry, a terran army is not so tough when you only have to take down half of it at a time.
Another thing about warp in that you have to put into perspective is investment. When a zerg or terran buys a unit, they pay minerals now, and get the unit like 40 seconds later, and not even at the place they would like most. When we protoss buy a gateway unit, we get the unit in 5 seconds, which is very important, because until you get your unit to do dps, you basically have just thrown away minerals and gas you could use on other stuff.
So I hope this explains why protoss gateway units are so weak to balance all that, and also what you have to use to counteract those balances. Use your warp ins and sentries. If a terran army is up your ramp and you have zealots at the top, don't warp in additional zealots at the top, they'll just clutter each other. Warp down additional zealots at the low-ground via a pylon to gain a flank with them.
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EPT
