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I would like to get the opinion of players on this forum with regards to the value of static defenses. So to start I will give a little background on my opinion of them, and how I came to it:
I played scbw when it was released, and through a portion of highschool (not competitively, and never on iccup) and the way games unfolded were greatly different from the way I currently play. Back in those days cannons were king; it would literally be 3 hour matches of cannon turtle backed up with 1 stargate carrier, 1 gateway (didn't even think of building more then one unit producing structure) and generally terrible play. But the point of the game was to build as many cannons as possible. To say the least my opinion of static defenses was high, and my knowledge of the game was extremely low.
Fast forward to the release of beta; I got in and really wanted to learn the new game. I started in the copper league (to those not involved in beta, there was a league below bronze at the time) and was still just as terrible. Then I stumbled onto the wonderful world of Teamliquid and at the time the only real SC2 replays (vods) I could find from Husky. Suddenly the world opened up and I really started to learn the game, and the one thing that seemed true to me was the fact that static defenses aren't that great. I came to the conclusion at the time that you should be able to play the game sans-static defense, and this has kinda stuck with me ever since.
I am now an 1800 point diamond zerg (the cannon thing might of made you think I was toss, but I played zerg for a long time after my cannon scbw days, and continue to this day) and I think my opinion is starting to change.
It started with the 4 gate; it became very clear that you *need* 4 spine crawlers againsts a suspected 4 gater...but I still didnt like it. I really really wanted to find a way to get away without building any static D, but it wasn't working most of the time. So I eventually incorporated it into my builds.
Then my opinion really changed a couple weeks ago when I played in a tournament. The match was against a top 200 NA ranked player on Steppes of War. I felt I was playing really well; had three bases up and going for my fourth. An engagement in the middle lead to my third being lost when I look over to my just now spawning 4th hatch; and what do I see? One pylon and about 10 cannons being warped in which was blocking my from getting there to fight, and obviously about to kill my hatch.
I am now starting the feel that hey, 6-7 even 10 spine crawlers are better spent defending my base as zerg then living on the edge hoping I didnt drone too hard.
I am starting to swing back to my original feelings of static defenses and Im not sure its healthy; so I come here for your opinion.
How does the TL community feel about static defenses in competitive play?
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Static defenses were much better in BW than they are in SC2. This is specifically related to range.
Units in SC2 generally have 1-3 extra range when compared to the equivalent units from BW. However, static defense range has stayed the same.
So what was a 2-3 range advantage in BW has become a 0-1 range advantage. Considering static defenses can't move, this makes them almost worthless.
Where as you could defend sections of the map quite successfully with static defenses in BW, they are little more than a minor annoyance in SC2.
I think static defenses could use a +1 range buff across the board in SC2, they are just not worth their cost in their current iteration outside of possibly 1 cannon/crawler in your mineral line to hold for 1-2 seconds in specific situations.
The other side of this argument is that I don't understand why Void Rays and Banshees have 6 range compared to the 4 range of Scouts and Wraiths, but Mutalisks still have 3 range.
Why didn't Mutas get the same treatment, shouldn't they have 4 or 5 range these days?
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As a zerg, I enjoy a spine crawler in my minerals, later moved to my ramp when creep spreading allows. I generally like to get 2 spore crawlers at each base afterwards. If I am NOT going nydus worm, I will get a single spine crawler at each base. Otherwise, I get the nydus worm plus 2 spore crawlers at every expo.
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The last thing I need is mutas with more range.
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You dont need spines to defend a 4 gate.
But I think they are under appreciated. Because macro is so simple in sc2 I find I reach 200/200 FAR more often than in bw. The banked resources at this point soon exceed even the amount required to rebuild an entire army after throwing it away. So what to do with them? Spines/Crawlers dont cost supply and are amazingly cost effective. I have been turning all my drones into (not so) static defense and just instantly remaking the drones. If you creep push with them you gain better map control and an effectively higher army value.
This is probably why the P was cannoning you also. Its just a great way to spend otherwise unspendable resources.
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Static defense has it's place in every game, depending on what race you are:
Protoss- Cannons pretty well suck, and that's pretty much all they get. The only real saving grace of Cannons is that they're the only way for Protoss to detect aside from the much more expensive Observers.
Terran- Terran have interesting options in static defenses now. Bunkers are salvageable, so it's only a temporary investment of minerals to drop them as opposed to a permanent expense. They're great in a wide variety of situations.
Missle turrets do SO MUCH damage now as well, making them great against mineral-line harassment, but in excess they're still a waste of minerals.
Sensor towers are highly under-utilized tools, IMO. If you can't get out to control a Xel'Naga tower, or if you want to look into an area a Xel'Naga tower doesn't cover, then dropping one in a secure location relatively close to the action will give you almost as much information as the Xel'Naga towers do. That said, the 100 gas cost in this makes it a very bad idea to build many more than 1 or 2 at most, and proper placement of them is absolutely critical.
Planetary Fortresses are amazing. Lots of armor, lots of damage, and lots of nearby SCVs to repair anything that any army can dish out. Great for expansions into contested mineral patches.
Zerg- Static defenses in Zerg are truly not static at all. Anywhere there's creep you can drop a Spine or Spore crawler, and I especially like sticking a spore crawler behind my mineral lines any time some sort of stealth or air harass is imminent. Spike crawlers are likewise useful, as they do tons of damage against super-early aggression and can be used in the mid-game to absorb tons of damage relative to their cost (again: 200 mins for a Spine Crawler with 300 HP and 1 armor. By comparison, 200 mins of Zerglings have 280 HP and 0 armor, and 200 mins of Hydras have 160 HP and 0 armor, nevermind the Larva tradeoffs). Their range of 7 and situational mobility also compliments the varied ranges of the Zerg ground forces (Zerglings melee, roaches 4, hydras 5/6, spines 7), which means you need less of a concave with a varied force in order to maximize your damage.
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On November 20 2010 12:12 samuraibael wrote:
You dont need spines to defend a 4 gate.
But I think they are under appreciated. Because macro is so simple in sc2 I find I reach 200/200 FAR more often than in bw. The banked resources at this point soon exceed even the amount required to rebuild an entire army after throwing it away. So what to do with them? Spines/Crawlers dont cost supply and are amazingly cost effective. I have been turning all my drones into (not so) static defense and just instantly remaking the drones. If you creep push with them you gain better map control and an effectively higher army value.
This is probably why the P was cannoning you also. Its just a great way to spend otherwise unspendable resources.
I don't want to turn this into a 4 gate discussion, but you do make a good point.
If I am going muta ling I find late game that I do have an excess of minerals and spine crawlers are a good way to spend them....however I often run into a problem of being zerg and hating to waste drones late game....I have to make drones and then turn them into spine crawlers, Id rather make an expo with the excess and send the drones I made for crawlers there.
However if I am going roach hydra I find I always have an excess of gas and am keeping my minerals low (if macroing properly) for each roach and hydra is 175-75.
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On November 20 2010 12:15 X-Codes wrote:
Zerg- Static defenses in Zerg are truly not static at all. Anywhere there's creep you can drop a Spine or Spore crawler, and I especially like sticking a spore crawler behind my mineral lines any time some sort of stealth or air harass is imminent. Spike crawlers are likewise useful, as they do tons of damage against super-early aggression and can be used in the mid-game to absorb tons of damage relative to their cost (again: 200 mins for a Spine Crawler with 300 HP and 1 armor. By comparison, 200 mins of Zerglings have 280 HP and 0 armor, and 200 mins of Hydras have 160 HP and 0 armor, nevermind the Larva tradeoffs). Their range of 7 and situational mobility also compliments the varied ranges of the Zerg ground forces (Zerglings melee, roaches 4, hydras 5/6, spines 7), which means you need less of a concave with a varied force in order to maximize your damage.
Maybe this is why I am finding static defense as zerg so much more useful then I thought it should be.
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You can argue about the optimal number of spine crawlers needed against a 4 gate. I personally use static defence rarely. They perform well in countering certain units.
Using spine crawlers on blistering sands against a 4 gate is almost a death sentence. I'm not sure about jungle basin, though. The big, open natural on xel'naga caverns is also not ideal for spine crawlers.
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On November 20 2010 12:38 Perscienter wrote:
You can argue about the optimal number of spine crawlers needed against a 4 gate. I personally use static defence rarely. They perform well in countering certain units.
Using spine crawlers on blistering sands against a 4 gate is almost a death sentence. I'm not sure about jungle basin, though. The big, open natural on xel'naga caverns is also not ideal for spine crawlers.
I agree on blistering sands, but as a zerg player do you find yourself using static D on other matchups or maps? Or are you able to hold most off without them (which was my original assumption of good play)?
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On November 20 2010 12:22 JBrown08 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 12:15 X-Codes wrote:
Zerg- Static defenses in Zerg are truly not static at all. Anywhere there's creep you can drop a Spine or Spore crawler, and I especially like sticking a spore crawler behind my mineral lines any time some sort of stealth or air harass is imminent. Spike crawlers are likewise useful, as they do tons of damage against super-early aggression and can be used in the mid-game to absorb tons of damage relative to their cost (again: 200 mins for a Spine Crawler with 300 HP and 1 armor. By comparison, 200 mins of Zerglings have 280 HP and 0 armor, and 200 mins of Hydras have 160 HP and 0 armor, nevermind the Larva tradeoffs). Their range of 7 and situational mobility also compliments the varied ranges of the Zerg ground forces (Zerglings melee, roaches 4, hydras 5/6, spines 7), which means you need less of a concave with a varied force in order to maximize your damage. Maybe this is why I am finding static defense as zerg so much more useful then I thought it should be.
I can tell that Blizzard did a lot to make static defenses less terrible. If Phase Cannons can get balanced and worked into the game, then maybe they'll give protoss a useful option as well.
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Photon cannons are awesome as is... at least against Zerg. Nothing except Broodlords outranges them, and they're so much more cost effective against roaches than stalkers. Not so great against Terran or Protoss, but in small doses they're decent.
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On November 20 2010 12:41 JBrown08 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 12:38 Perscienter wrote:
You can argue about the optimal number of spine crawlers needed against a 4 gate. I personally use static defence rarely. They perform well in countering certain units.
Using spine crawlers on blistering sands against a 4 gate is almost a death sentence. I'm not sure about jungle basin, though. The big, open natural on xel'naga caverns is also not ideal for spine crawlers. I agree on blistering sands, but as a zerg player do you find yourself using static D on other matchups or maps? Or are you able to hold most off without them (which was my original assumption of good play)?
I'll map the 1vs1 ladder maps to three categories.
Static defence only able to defend one base at once, therefore circumvention possible.
Open naturals will make it possible for the opponent to partly avoid your spine crawlers.
The natural lies in front of your choke, therefore spine crawlers are 100% effective to defend against assaults on both bases.
Blistering Sands I prefer to build one spine crawlers at maximum, but only if I'm in real danger.
Jungle Basin The backdoor is a little bit less dangerous than the one on Blistering Sands. It's harder to reach and the Zerg has an easier job doing a run-by. Because of the longer paths between the main entrance and the backdoor, spine crawlers can still be viable.
Scrap Station Due to the long paths the Zerg should be able to defend it without spines.
Steppes of War Spine crawlers can be very handy here, but be careful! The path to the opponen'ts main is short! The opponent might arrive before they finish, if he isn't distracted.
Xel'Naga Caverns Not as effective as on green maps. Still viable.
Delta Quadrant The outer natural is open and won't block any assault on the main. The pocket expansion will be late and is exposed to warp-ins, drops, cliff-drops etc. Therefore red.
Lost Temple Looking at it positional reveals that it's a good map for spines, but you should watch out for elevators and cliff drops.
Metalopolis Spines won't cover all of your natural and the openness makes surrounds more important.
Shakuras Plateau cross positions It would probably be too expensive to tear both rocks down. Spine are very good there, especially since the natural has its own plateau.
Shakuras Plateau horizontal positions It takes times, but the option to back-stab is still there. The same rule applies like to Jungle Basin. Long paths give you enough time reposition the spines, but scouting is needed to know where he attacks.
When the opponent moves out, I often throw down spines when I don't have enough larvae, supply or if I just panic.
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On November 20 2010 11:22 Jermstuddog wrote:
Static defenses were much better in BW than they are in SC2. This is specifically related to range.
Units in SC2 generally have 1-3 extra range when compared to the equivalent units from BW. However, static defense range has stayed the same.
So what was a 2-3 range advantage in BW has become a 0-1 range advantage. Considering static defenses can't move, this makes them almost worthless.
Where as you could defend sections of the map quite successfully with static defenses in BW, they are little more than a minor annoyance in SC2.
I think static defenses could use a +1 range buff across the board in SC2, they are just not worth their cost in their current iteration outside of possibly 1 cannon/crawler in your mineral line to hold for 1-2 seconds in specific situations.
The other side of this argument is that I don't understand why Void Rays and Banshees have 6 range compared to the 4 range of Scouts and Wraiths, but Mutalisks still have 3 range.
Why didn't Mutas get the same treatment, shouldn't they have 4 or 5 range these days?
pretty much that.
Which makes static defense in general pretty strong against zerg, due to their low range (couple of turrets, cannons, or spores can cover a whole base against mutas), but much less effective against other races (marines, marauders, banshees, tanks, colossi, sentries, and so on dont really have problems with static defenses, roaches or mutas do)
I say in general against zerg, but it depends on the units though. If you face a zerg making hydras, the static defenses will be less than amazing, and if you face a protoss going zealot-templar-archon, then a wall of cannons or spine crawlers will still be awesome.
Static defenses are good against things with lower range, anything with 4 range or less is pretty weak against static defenses.
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Is anyone else disappointed about the attack animation of spine crawlers? It's just a tentacle, but not moving subsoil anymore.
We have deus ex machinas, nydus worms which move through space and burrowing ultralisks and they had to reform THAT?
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I'm going to try this from the protoss perspective. Cannons are really on viable against an early Ling/Roach push or a FEW mutalisk once they get to the death ball not much can stop mutalisk,/ banshees but 300 minerals for 1 or 2 banshees hardly seems useful. After that Cannons become basically useless. Stimmed Marines and maruaders can take down cannons like nobody's business. Stalkers do ok but eventually a collosus or an immortal will plow through cannons. Roaches with +1 range just eat cannons like MM when you get a decent number the only way to use cannons is with really good placement and good FF placements.
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EPT
