[H] 691pt Platinum Protoss struggling with PvP

On November 16 2010 22:22 Tobias wrote:
There's a bunch of builds P can throw against you, but THE ONE build you always need to keep in mind is a quick 4-gate rush. In order to quickly expand you need to make sure you can defend a 4-gate, which means getting a quick robo. I would probably try to get out a gateway and a robo asap, possibly followed by another gateway, and then expand. Pump zealots from the gateways and a few immortals from the robo, and you'll have no problem holding an early 4-gate. While the nexus is building you can pop another gateway thus completing your 3-gate+robo, and once the nexus is complete you can build gates and robos depending on the composition you scouted.

So, you can go into a 3-gate+robo with a fast expand, just make sure you get the robo early to hold off early 4-gate pushes, and it's actually quite powerful in PvP. Day[9] has a great daily on this, search day9.blip.tv for "macro" and you're bound to find it.

On November 16 2010 22:52 GWash wrote:
PvP gets a lot easier in the 692+ plat range.

jk. 3gate robo is the accepted build these days. You then can vary into collosus or an expo based on what you scour with your observer.

On November 16 2010 22:52 GWash wrote:
PvP gets a lot easier in the 692+ plat range.

jk. 3gate robo is the accepted build these days. You then can vary into collosus or an expo based on what you scour with your observer.

On November 16 2010 23:38 angrybacon wrote:
I very rarely see a successful expo in PvP. A timing attack as they expand is way too potent.

On November 16 2010 23:40 gurumaia wrote:


Hummm, interesting. To your knowledge, what is the safest way to expand in PvP? I'm always lost as to when I should expand.

On November 16 2010 23:54 angrybacon wrote:
The only real safe way to expand, in my opinion, is if you have already won. That is to say, you'd need to be over 400 minerals ahead on army value, or have a hard enough contain on your opponent that he won't know or won't be able to do anything about the expo. In all of my PvP games, an attack as I scout their expand wins the game. In my experience, the key is to be aggressive and micro in PvP.

On November 17 2010 00:21 jaeds wrote:
@ your game on lost temple:

1- use chronoboost, especially on early probes. every second it sits on 100/100 is wasteful
2- gate->cybernetics->gate is almost always stronger than gate->gate->cyber (especially if you get gas when you did-- and speaking of, get the second gas) -- gate->gate would only be decent if you planned to zealot rush him, but this is usually not effective... as stalkers can micro vs. zealots fairly easily
3- you stayed on 2gates for too long without seeming to have other ideas in mind (on one base being fully harvested, you can produce out of 4 gates 100% of the cooldown times. or 3gate robo (obs+immortal) or 2gate robo (coloss)-- most 3gate robo(immortal) seem to turn into 3gate+robo(coloss instead of immortals)+forge on 2base)
4- research warpgate... it's cheap+ super helpful
5- you didn't get a robotics after you noticed his twilight

if you watch nearly any protoss replay from http://www.sc2rep.com/ -- the first 3 minutes of the game is almost always the same against anyone. the only difference would be if they choose to scout after building the first pylon or after the gateway. it would be helpful to practice that opening for all of your matchups.

On November 17 2010 00:58 gurumaia wrote:
I'll definitely do that (watch the replays). I think I have the hang of the first few minutes (9 pylon, 12 gate, core as soon as gate finishes) but I don't know where to go from there.

On November 17 2010 01:13 jaeds wrote:
basically:
9pylon (when pylon finishes, boost nexus. boost again when first boost finishes -- boost again when you have 25 energy again, then people usually start saving to be able to boost their first stalker+warpgate)
13gate (note: if you scout with the probe who placed the pylon, it will be 14gate)
15gas
16pylon
core immediately after gate finishes

2 options here:
1. get a zealot after placing core when minerals allow while maintaining probe production,
2. get the second gas (during the core production instead of after)

get a stalker when core finishes (and upgrade warp gate)

---This is usually where the game actually starts

most typical: get a sentry after the stalker is out (to be able to wall your ramp)

whether you get a 2nd sentry after depends whether you want to build a gateway or a robo next (because of the gas) (i prefer gateway->core->gateway-> robo -> gateway to be able to fend off early aggression easier than gateway-> core ->robo ->gateway -> gateway)

just pay attention to resource management, ie. if you have minerals but need gas for something else, get a zealot. if you have gas but low minerals, get a sentry.. etc

hopefully that's helpful for the early game :t

On November 17 2010 01:41 m3gatl20n wrote:
I usually forego zealots and try for stalker sentry play. I like to get one or two quick immortal since every one has some stalkers. Then get observer. Make good use of sentry. If you won a big battle expand add a couple gates and choose tech based off scouting.

On November 17 2010 01:31 gurumaia wrote:
Zealot as soon as gate finishes, and THEN a core. Is the core first better?
When core finishes I start getting stalkers, as gas permits (while getting robo up, etc), but I usually start improvising here.
I generally get a sentry because I know they're effective at shutting down rushes, but I always fail to lay down a good force field. I feel because my internet connection is not very good, the lag makes it harder, but even without the lag, I'm not very good with FFing my ramp.

So you get a zealot, then a stalker and then a sentry. Then if you're going gate -> core -> gate -> robo, you get another sentry, and if you're going for robo first, you get a zealot or stalker?

Thanks for the info. I'll try to put together a build that goes as far as 30 food in order to have a good early plan.

On November 17 2010 02:05 BaLLz(SVK) wrote:
I didn't watch your replays, but I think PvPs depend a lot on whether the opponent goes for gas steal(s) or not. Also, on small maps, I almost always see 4 gate pushes. I'm in mid diamond right now, and to be honest, in most cases I 4 gate on small maps, and do the 3 gate robot into expand on bigger maps.

On November 17 2010 02:20 Enervate wrote:
Just 4gate every game. 4gate is a common and acceptable strategy in PvP. It's easy to learn and somewhat easy to execute. If you get your timings down, you can improve your PvP a lot, just by 4gating. And to people saying you won't get any better by 4gating, yes you will. You get better by practicing and honing any build, and seeing the different ways for your opponent to react will also help you improve.

On November 17 2010 02:20 Offhand wrote:
Cybercore before zealot is preferable IF you don't scout any kind of rush. If you get proxy'd or just 2 gated on a short run distance map then yeah you're going to want to get a zealot out immediately.

For PvP, it's best to compare your own timings to his. You can't really shut down scouting until a stalker comes out so you should know exactly what he's doing up until that point. If you scout while doing standard build (9 pylon, 14 gate, etc) and see him doing the exact same thing then it's a safe move to put down a core, get your own stalker out to deny scouting, then make your first real "build-order-move". Obviously stuff like 1 gate -> expand is pretty much a death sentence in PvP because super aggression builds are so powerful. 4 gate is still amazingly easy to pull of, 3 gate robo is similar except you can't actually keep up constant production out of all 4 buildings (unless you only make obs out of the robo, which seems like a huge waste IMO). If you want to play reactively, make 2 gates and a robo. That will allow you to do constant production out of all three buildings, have one observers to scout and shut down dt play, and handle almost all early pushes.

I tend not to think in exact terms of what I'm going to make if I want to go for X. If you want to expand, you need 400 minerals but still need to keep up army production, so make a bunch of sentries one warp-in round. If you're going to tech anything (but in this example collo) you need a ton of gas, so warp-in a round of zealots instead. Relying on a food count won't help.

I find that most protoss players really don't have a plan beyond their one base opening (4 gate, 3 gate robo, what have you) so their strategy rapidly fall apart if you can hold off early aggression and go into a longer game.

On November 16 2010 23:54 angrybacon wrote:


The only real safe way to expand, in my opinion, is if you have already won. That is to say, you'd need to be over 400 minerals ahead on army value, or have a hard enough contain on your opponent that he won't know or won't be able to do anything about the expo. In all of my PvP games, an attack as I scout their expand wins the game. In my experience, the key is to be aggressive and micro in PvP.

On November 17 2010 02:47 Nasdrova wrote:
I disagree with this, and though i'm not in diamond my friend who coaches me who is 2k platinum toss definitely recommends expanding early in cross positions and 2 player maps where there is a large ground distance (jungle basin for example).

Sure they can 4 gate, but if you have enough sentry you should be able to hold it off and if you scout it you can hopefully have a cannon or two up in time to help defend.

In general it looks just like a FE vs terran where you go gate/core/zealot/warpgate then chrono your single gate like hell while you build up minerals and workers and expand at around 30 food. From there I tend to favor getting a robo next then more gates. This gives you critical scouting info and keeps you safe from DT rush, also you can reinforce your army with immortals faster than your opponent if they push you early.

Once you hold off their aggression and your economy kicks in you will have a tremendous advantage being the first to expand.

On November 17 2010 03:01 gurumaia wrote:
This seems like a safe build on the hands of an experienced player. I'll definitely try that in the future, but right now I don't think I'd be able to use FF to secure an early expansion.
What I will do now is try to secure an army large enough to secure that expo (with the 3-gate robo build). Let's see what happens.

Oh, and if anyone on the Latin American servers is willing to play me, so that I don't depend on finding protosses on ladder, I'd be glad. Just PM me.