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So, I've been reading allot that it's very important for beginners to choose 1 build per match up and use it every game until you have the build perfected. So I'm working on my ZvT at the moment, and I have been thinking of using 2 base muta after watching a day9 cast where he talks about the importance of power units as a zerg player to be able to respond to aggression effectively without being wasteful (i.e. building way too many lings to respond to incoming marines, etc) and instead relying on a few power units, like mutas, infestors, or queens.
So while tooling through liquipedia's zerg strategy section, I stumbled across the 2 base muta page, and thought it looked solid. I know idra uses something similar, which gives me pause because I know he's such a strong macro player, where mine is still fairly poor (which I'm working on fixing). So, my question is; will this build be to hard to execute for a beginner, or will it be manageable? If the answer is that it is too complicated, what is a good build to work on for beginners in ZvT?
Thanks allot. Peace.
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The difficulty is that you have to execute and micro harass while maintaining queen injections, as well as surviving to the point of getting your spire up in the first place.
This means you need to learn how to deal with
a) Pre-mutas, all the 1-base timing pushes imaginable,
b) Post mutas, microing against thors, stimmed marines, blink stalkers, viking and phoenix defense, and how to respond to the eventual all-in that results if they completely fail to recover map control and can't take a new expansion. And all while keeping up injections, taking new expansions, putting down extra hatcheries to produce your huge numbers of drones and lings you'll be making with your excess minerals, etc.
It's hard, but you may as well start with a bread and butter build like this as it's effective in ZvT and ZvP right now.
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I think 2 base muta is a good place to start as a new zerg player.
First of all, mutalisks are quite powerful when you're not prepared for them. They give you a lot of scouting information and let you practice harass and whatnot.
Secondly, your muta production is limited by your gas, not your minerals, or your larva. That means if your macro is faltering a bit, you can still maximize your mutalisk production. As long as you make sure you have 3 dudes in all of your gasses, and you spend all of your gas, you can be certain that you have as much gas as possible. If your macro sucks, it's the zerglings that you'll miss out on, and as you improve, it's there that you'll notice the most difference. Also, by playing with the mutas, there will be situations where you just wish you had more lings/banelings to deal with say marines or something, and that will push you to improve your macro, but even if your macro falters, you've still got a ton of mutas.
Third, it's a 2 base play, which I think is a much better thing to learn than some kind of one base all-in like a 5 roach rush. Fast expand is pretty much a necessity, or at the least a staple for zerg play. Any sort of one-base play is kind of cheesy, and while you might be able to win some games with it, the skills that you learn from roach rushing won't necessarily help you as much as the general skills and timings you'd learn from doing a more standard FE build.
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Yes, go for it!!. I got out of my begginer style with that strat, you can even reach diamond doing just that.
A coupple of advices, be willing to add some bannelings when you see a big ball of marines, and dont loose your mind if it dont work vs Zerg (hydras own mutas) :p.
Also if you saw the newbie tuesday about drops, the same concepts apply for mutas harras, small pokes, ran away when the enemy army come to defend (keep you mutas alive and growing in number, eventually they will be a unstoppable force!), and like drops, they will work better when the enemy is spread out, if he is cointain in one base, dont attack him, keep making units untill he comes out, then you can choose to face his army, or skip to his base.
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I think it really depends on what you consider a beginner.
If you're a bronze league player, maybe 2 base muta isn't right for you. Not because the micro is incredibly intensive and your non-conditioned hands can't handle it, but because your flaws aren't in your strat, it's in your basic mechanics.
Now, if you're starting to climb up into platinum league, high gold, low diamond, what have you, and you think you're injections are timed well, you have your BO's down to a science, and you get basic Starcraft 2 theory, by all means, lose 20 games or so trying to perfect this strategy.
My recommendation is basic mechanics being perfected gets you to diamond league. Your strategies and adaptations take you from there.
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I'm in a similar position to you so take my advice cum grano salis but, I think a better choice would be (some variation on) 5RR/the five roach rush.
Although things have changed a little post-patch, I found 2 base muta was difficult to start off with both because you are fairly vulnerable to early aggression and I didn't have the skill to fight it off economically (whereas with 5RR or similar it's you who is being aggressive); and because mutas aren't actually that strong especially in low numbers - it's really the skill in their use (in particular, being able to harras without losing units yourself, or slowing down your own macro/eco) that make them good to use.
Fast roach punching T is good because it's easier to execute, and it is fairly effective against low Terrans who generally like to turtle and tech but don't necessarily have the experience to be able to hold a choke (eg. repair with SVCs fast enough etc).
Re the whole "stick to one BO forever" thing - I agree it's a good enough way to get started, but don't be afraid to mess around. I think one big problem with the whole ladder/ranking thing for starter players is it can be a disincentive to experiment. As the Thoughthammer says, the whole point is to be a better gamer - so don't be afraid to lose games to try things out.
As I say, I know nothing so please feel free to discount at will.
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I think it's a good idea to use this strat, it's a good strat.
And as day[9] has said a few times, it's better to play perfect bad than to play bad perfect.
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Muta builds are going to stress you out a bit, forcing you to multi-task and micro well.
With that in mind, I think there's no better way for a beginner to develop his/her skills than by pushing the limits.
Absolutely practice muta/ling. It'll help you in more ways than you realize.
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No, muta ling is extremely difficult for beginners. Just getting to mutas from lings is pretty hard since you will be vulnerable to certain early aggression, and its hard to know exactly how much you should drone. Then, after getting mutas, you will have to micro your mutas trying to contain the terran.
I recommend roach hydra and maybe throw in some infestors. It will be really good for honing your macro and the infestor usage will help your micro a little. Macro is really key for beginners.
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I think the biggest reason to learn and practice it is IdrA and others have shown it can hold off virtually anything when played well. Better to learn an all round proven build so when you lose at least you'll know the flaw is in your play and not the build you're using.
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But that's my point. When he loses, the flaw is absolutely 100% in his BASIC macroing play. I mean, injecting every 25 energy, scouting every so often to know exactly what the opponent is doing, knowing when to drone, expanding at the right time, having vision and map control of the everything, always landing his build order, distinguishing others build orders. THESE are the things he should be focusing on. Telling him to learn this incredibly high reward high challenge strategy is like hooking up an 8 foot black tip shark on a fishing pole and saying "Well, we could have let you try to practice casting hot dogs for some 3 pound bass, but we figured you'd know it's your fault if you couldn't catch this behemoth".
BASICS. BASICS. BASICS. It's what everyone is overlooking when they want to get better. Show us a replay where you rarely miss injections, you scout well, you show good map control, use good judgement, and don't float lots of minerals, and I'll tell you "Wow! Okay! Start developing the 2 base muta strategy". But when I read beginner, I think of my bronze league terran friend floating 600 minerals at the 16 supply mark and people crying about 6 pools being overpowered.
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good question, ill be following this thread as im considering following in the footsteps of TLO and kawaiirice, and switching to the imba race, zerg.
User was temp banned for this and other posts.
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I'd say this is the perfect beginner build. I played (drunk, haha) on one of my friends' bronze accounts. If you just make sure to use all your minerals the instant they're available (like, spam s->d right before you get 50 meen-er-allls) you'll already be worlds ahead of your beginner opponent. Also I found that the bronze players don't understand the effects of your mutas constantly sniping perimeter buildings (like supply depots). Just my two cents.
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On October 26 2010 10:12 Jeffbelittle wrote:
But that's my point. When he loses, the flaw is absolutely 100% in his BASIC macroing play. I mean, injecting every 25 energy, scouting every so often to know exactly what the opponent is doing, knowing when to drone, expanding at the right time, having vision and map control of the everything, always landing his build order, distinguishing others build orders. THESE are the things he should be focusing on.
You're going to need to focus on all that no matter what build you do. So you may as well practice it while also practicing a good build.
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So I decided with the amount of yeses, I'd try out the build a few times by myself to see how the early game macro works. My problem is that I float WAY too many minerals. Granted, this is with no opponent, so I'm not forced to play on the defensive at all, so no extra lings to consume a bit of minerals.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96004-1v1-zerg-agria-valley
I know I spaced FOREVER on the 2nd extractor and probably should have double gassed my natural, but beside that, should I be backing off on drone production, or adding in evo chambers or throwing down a bling nest in the time around 2nd queen production where my minerals start to climb?
Any help would be great. Thanks for everyone posting so far.
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On October 26 2010 10:12 Jeffbelittle wrote:
But that's my point. When he loses, the flaw is absolutely 100% in his BASIC macroing play. I mean, injecting every 25 energy, scouting every so often to know exactly what the opponent is doing, knowing when to drone, expanding at the right time, having vision and map control of the everything, always landing his build order, distinguishing others build orders. THESE are the things he should be focusing on. Telling him to learn this incredibly high reward high challenge strategy is like hooking up an 8 foot black tip shark on a fishing pole and saying "Well, we could have let you try to practice casting hot dogs for some 3 pound bass, but we figured you'd know it's your fault if you couldn't catch this behemoth".
BASICS. BASICS. BASICS. It's what everyone is overlooking when they want to get better. Show us a replay where you rarely miss injections, you scout well, you show good map control, use good judgement, and don't float lots of minerals, and I'll tell you "Wow! Okay! Start developing the 2 base muta strategy". But when I read beginner, I think of my bronze league terran friend floating 600 minerals at the 16 supply mark and people crying about 6 pools being overpowered.
I agree with Shakes above - you might as well be perfecting these things whilst learning a build. Everyone is recommending that you learn the basics - this is true, but how are you going to learn? Pump zerglings non-stop whilst keeping perfect injection, scouting and map control?
Also, someone above mentioned that the basics get you to Plat/Diamond, and the strategies take you from there. I think it was Idra who makes the comment that this is a Western philosophy. Koreans practice their build orders 30 times a day at the pro-level. Why? Because when you're playing an experienced player, you can only trick them so much. At that level play, it comes down to execution, who is faster - macro and micro. So I say, just learn your build order and practice it.
A lot of people also say you shouldn't pick one BO and learn it forever. I think you should - when you get timing attacked with speed voidrays (prob doesn't happen anymore) you'll know to pop that extra queen, or drop that extra spore. Your build order will still be 2-base Mutas, it'll just deviate for when you see things, react to them. Again, if you want to look at the pros, there are those who favor specific units and will tech to them most of the time. Practice your 2 base - you WILL lose. But you take away from that much more than picking a lesser build and then having to move to 2-base Mutas later.
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forgot to add, watching a similar IdrA game Around the time my lair pops, I'm ahead of him by something like 12-13 drones, but he was also producing a spine and a few lings for early aggression, so I'm not sure if this is necessarily a bad thing, but something I felt should be pointed out.
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On October 26 2010 12:11 Arisen wrote:So I decided with the amount of yeses, I'd try out the build a few times by myself to see how the early game macro works. My problem is that I float WAY too many minerals. Granted, this is with no opponent, so I'm not forced to play on the defensive at all, so no extra lings to consume a bit of minerals. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96004-1v1-zerg-agria-valleyI know I spaced FOREVER on the 2nd extractor and probably should have double gassed my natural, but beside that, should I be backing off on drone production, or adding in evo chambers or throwing down a bling nest in the time around 2nd queen production where my minerals start to climb? Any help would be great. Thanks for everyone posting so far.
Going muta is great because of the map control it gives.
When you have map control, you know you're not going to get attacked. When you know you're not going to get attacked, you don't need to be building any army.
Instead, expo like a mad man, and make as many drones as you possibly can. Its a relatively short window of time, so you have to nail your injects, and pump out as many drones as possible before switching back into army mode.
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EPT
