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I did a count on the number of upgrades per race, because as a Terran player I felt that there are a lot of things that need to be upgraded before they reached their maximum potential. So I was curious if the amount of upgrades were similar with the other races.
Note #1: I only counted the numerical upgrades (air attack, ground armor, etc.) once. So for example, Terran Infantry Attack 1, 2, and 3 would only be a count of 1.
Note #2: I did not include adding tech labs or reactors to buildings as an upgrade.
Note #3: I did include upgrading the command center to Orbital or PF. Also counted the Hatchery to Lair and Lair to Hive.
Results:
Terran - 26
Zerg - 19
Protoss - 15
Discussion:
Why is this? Is it warranted? Is it right that Terran has 11 more upgrades to think about and expend resources on than Protoss? Is it an advantage to Terran that they have more abilities than they other two races? On the other hand, is it a disadvantage because they have more to think about and have to know just the right ability to unlock or weapon to be upgraded to have the advantage?
I'd like to know what you think.
Thanks,
-Bench
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Terran has 11 more upgrades because of a large diversity of unit roles. Banshees, ravens, marines, hellions, thors, etc etc. HOWEVER. The upgrades are pretty cheap for the barracks units (50/50 for concussive, 100/100 for stim that is worth WAY more than that, and 100/100 to add what amounts to +20% life onto your marines). The zerg upgrades,a good chunk of them are speed based and are pretty bland and boring.
For protoss, all the upgrades are pretty much late-game stuff, minus warp gates, which is essential to get at least by mid-game, because all protoss units build so damned slow.
Also, Terran gets another +2 compared to protoss and zerg due to mech+air+bio upgrades vs Air+ground to balance the cost-effectiveness of the terran army.
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Costs (Both minerals and gas, as they all cost the same of each)
Terran Full Attack: 1575
Protoss Full Attack: 1000
Zerg full attack: 1375
Terran Armor Full: 1575
Protoss Armor Full: 1200
Zerg full armor: 1350
Protoss Full shields: 900
Totals per Race:
Terran: 3150
Protoss: 3100
Zerg: 2725
Just by way of note.
EDIT: I misread. This is JUST the 1-2-3 upgrades.
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I feel like the amount of upgrades can be linked to creative play. I have no idea whether or not it's balanced but it certainly gives the terran player lots of options! I'm not trying to say that an extra 2 building armor, 2 more slots worth of bunker space or increased missle turret range would ever get used at high levels of play or not. But the fact that all those upgrades exist by definition makes the terran player think about whether or not they are useful in any given situation. I think they're kind of cool, but then again, I don't play terran.
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I guess the question is, would you really utilize all the upgrades that are offered? Some of them are in very niche roles, ex. Nitro Packs or Infernal Pre-Igniter. I would think that unless you were specifically building with those units in mind, it would be safe to otherwise ignore them completely.
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Terran has a lot of upgrades that make certain units better, but are by no means required to make effective usage of said unit (with the exception of Combat Shield and Stim, both cheap upgrades). Whereas a lot of Protoss and Zerg upgrades are absolutely essential (Charge, Storm, Khaydarin, Thermal Lances, Graviton, Metabolic, Grooved Spines, Glial Reconstitution, both Overlord upgrades, etc): without them the units involved aren't half as good.
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On October 19 2010 02:41 Dogchow89 wrote:
I guess the question is, would you really utilize all the upgrades that are offered? Some of them are in very niche roles, ex. Nitro Packs or Infernal Pre-Igniter. I would think that unless you were specifically building with those units in mind, it would be safe to otherwise ignore them completely.
hm there are definitely niche upgrades, but Nitro pack/infernal pre-igniter are definitely NOT the niche ones (well maybe nitro pack since the patch).
There are WAY more niche upgrades than those two:
-observer speed
-warp prism speed
-bunker/CC/OC capacity increase
-+25 medivac energy
-+25 raven energy
-durable materials
-+25 battlecruiser energy
I rarely see any of these upgrades, most common one being +25 raven energy if terran goes for mass raven strategy, but even that's really rare.
Zerg doesn't seem to have any niche upgrades, and any unit-specific upgrades are almost always upgraded when the unit is used (except possibly neural parasite).
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Couple of things:
-Terran has more diverse units, Terran units are already good without upgrades, upgrading them just makes them more specialized but are not super nessecary.
-Most terran upgrades like energy upgrades are rarely used. The rest are niche upgrades, like blue flame. You can go without it, but if you do get it its for a purpose and specific strat, but helions still do fine without it. Kinda like Blink.
-Look at zerg upgrades such as speedling, and speed roach. As well as most other upgrades like Hydra range. Almsot every zerg units needs an upgrade to reach full effectiveness. The units I can say this for terran is: the marine, with its +10hp, and stimpack, maybe reaper with speed, and of course siege mode. I can name more, but the point is in a general game, Zerg generally has a lot more upgrades to get than terran(some terran strategies require more upgrades ofcourse, but generally not the case).
-Protoss, not much to say, their units are already expensive, and so are their upgrades. Many Terran upgrades are 50/50, while protoss upgrades are 150/150 or 200/200. Zerg are like 100/100 or 150/150.
So look not at how many upgrades they are, but their cost, research time, and general necessity and accesability. As upgrades like void ray speed, observer speed, prism speed, medivac energy, hunter seeker missile, raven energy... the list goes on, are rarely gotten in most games except for specific strats.
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I feel like protoss can use a bit more upgrade, and cheaper.
How about a zealot speed upgrade at cybercore to compete with wrap gate? It would be a 100/50 upgrade to make zealot goes as fast as stalker and delay wrap gate research, for example.
How about a carrier speed/acceleration upgrade that make it a bit more viable to micro?
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about the difference in upgrades in theroycraft:
(assumption I: 1gas = 2minerals, because of early game)
(assumption II: time is equal for options)
(assumption III: enemy units do 8 damage a shot, median of zealots 8, marine 6, marader 10)
you already have like 10 marines (you are committing to them) ...
now
you have to choose between spending 300 minerals on:
a) new marines: 5 new marines and a halve depot (because of the additional food costs)
b) amor upgrade: +1 amor every marine
c) combat shield: +10 hitpoint every marine
d) stimpack: +33% dmg overall
effect:
a)
increased hitpoints = 45*5=225
increased dmg per attack = 6*5 =30
total hp =675
total dmg =100
b)
increased hitpoints because enemy do 8 dmg its decreased to 7by amor.
45hp/7dmg=7hits instead of 45/8=6 hits
the exact difference of the hits is 0.8 hits per 8 dmg, which
7dmg ... for every marine. hence
+7*10=70 total
increased dmg per attack none
total hp =540
total dmg =70
c)
increased hitpoints = 10*10 =100
increased dmg per attack
total hp =550
total dmg =70
d)
increased hitpoints none
increased dmg per attack +33%
total hp =450
total dmg =93
RESULTS TABLE:
option....rines....amor...shield....stim
hp..........675.....540......550......450
dmg.......100......70.........70.......93
conclusion (stolen from above 
interesting.
i wanted to show that shield is a much stronger update compared to amor.
however- if the magnitude of damge is around the amount a zealot does - this is not exactly true. the magnitude of the gain from both updates is about the same in early game. one might expact the amor upgrade to be even more powerful against lings. and be less powerful against marauders.
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On October 19 2010 03:07 BlasiuS wrote:
There are WAY more niche upgrades than those two:
-observer speed
-warp prism speed
-bunker/CC/OC capacity increase
-+25 medivac energy
-+25 raven energy
-durable materials
-+25 battlecruiser energy
I used to think that too but I've tried it out a bit and it is amazingly useful. I get it 100% of the time that I go Colossus now.
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On October 19 2010 03:15 Seide wrote:
Couple of things:
-Terran has more diverse units, Terran units are already good without upgrades, upgrading them just makes them more specialized but are not super nessecary.
-Most terran upgrades like energy upgrades are rarely used. The rest are niche upgrades, like blue flame. You can go without it, but if you do get it its for a purpose and specific strat, but helions still do fine without it. Kinda like Blink.
-Look at zerg upgrades such as speedling, and speed roach. As well as most other upgrades like Hydra range. Almsot every zerg units needs an upgrade to reach full effectiveness. The units I can say this for terran is: the marine, with its +10hp, and stimpack, maybe reaper with speed, and of course siege mode. I can name more, but the point is in a general game, Zerg generally has a lot more upgrades to get than terran(some terran strategies require more upgrades ofcourse, but generally not the case).
-Protoss, not much to say, their units are already expensive, and so are their upgrades. Many Terran upgrades are 50/50, while protoss upgrades are 150/150 or 200/200. Zerg are like 100/100 or 150/150.
So look not at how many upgrades they are, but their cost, research time, and general necessity and accesability. As upgrades like void ray speed, observer speed, prism speed, medivac energy, hunter seeker missile, raven energy... the list goes on, are rarely gotten in most games except for specific strats.
Great points! Thanks! Probably if I was to calculate up the total costs of the upgrades for each race they would be pretty close...or closer. I might have to do that sometime.
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On October 19 2010 04:25 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:07 BlasiuS wrote:
There are WAY more niche upgrades than those two:
-observer speed
-warp prism speed
-bunker/CC/OC capacity increase
-+25 medivac energy
-+25 raven energy
-durable materials
-+25 battlecruiser energy
I used to think that too but I've tried it out a bit and it is amazingly useful. I get it 100% of the time that I go Colossus now.
Yes, observer speed is very good, cheap and upgrades fast. It is crucial against terran in mid/late game as it stops your observers from lagging behind. They absolutely MUST go upfront to spot any cloaked ghosts.
I think they should reduce the cost of robotics bay to 100/100 and increase thermal lance to 300/300. This way it's just too expensive if you don't go colossi.
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warp prism speed is surely something that will be used in the future, but observer speed?
Why would anyone get that?
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On October 19 2010 01:00 Utena wrote:
Costs (Both minerals and gas, as they all cost the same of each)
Terran Full Attack: 1575
Protoss Full Attack: 1000
Zerg full attack: 1375
Terran Armor Full: 1575
Protoss Armor Full: 1200
Zerg full armor: 1350
Protoss Full shields: 900
Totals per Race:
Terran: 3150
Protoss: 3100
Zerg: 2725
Just by way of note.
EDIT: I misread. This is JUST the 1-2-3 upgrades.
those prices dont seem comprehensive
that factor in P/Z ground/air + T inf/mech/air?
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On October 19 2010 08:23 kme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 04:25 Alzadar wrote:On October 19 2010 03:07 BlasiuS wrote:
There are WAY more niche upgrades than those two:
-observer speed
-warp prism speed
-bunker/CC/OC capacity increase
-+25 medivac energy
-+25 raven energy
-durable materials
-+25 battlecruiser energy
I used to think that too but I've tried it out a bit and it is amazingly useful. I get it 100% of the time that I go Colossus now. Yes, observer speed is very good, cheap and upgrades fast. It is crucial against terran in mid/late game as it stops your observers from lagging behind. They absolutely MUST go upfront to spot any cloaked ghosts. I think they should reduce the cost of robotics bay to 100/100 and increase thermal lance to 300/300. This way it's just too expensive if you don't go colossi.
upgrades dont go past 200/200 save for the level 1/2/3 ones, and thats already quite expensive for a unit your not going for
On October 19 2010 03:25 Protoss_Carrier wrote:
How about a zealot speed upgrade at cybercore to compete with wrap gate? It would be a 100/50 upgrade to make zealot goes as fast as stalker and delay wrap gate research, for example.
How about a carrier speed/acceleration upgrade that make it a bit more viable to micro?
upgrade cost in minerals = upgrade cost in gas, zealots get charge for an upgrade, that fufills a similar role
carriers dont need micro, just get in range to get the interceptors out and run back to their max range, then micro your other forces
On October 19 2010 00:44 Bench wrote:
Note #3: I did include upgrading the command center to Orbital or PF. Also counted the Hatchery to Lair and Lair to Hive.
thats not right
research is permanent, if a lair/hive/orbital/pf dies, its gone
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EPT
