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On September 14 2010 05:06 Dragonblood21 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 02:04 ToxNub wrote:
Lol?
I said marines. I didn't say marauders. Wtf are you talking about?
Who said he had emp? Why are you making up stuff?
Look, if you're going to disagree with me, you at least have to argue with what I said, and not some fantasy you invented, that I did not in any way imply. I am giving the OP examples of scenarios where control and position is the difference between losing and winning. If you disagree that marines can be kited by stalkers, or that cornering bio is necessary to your success, then be my guest, otherwise try to stay on topic. Right, because marines just always run around by themselves, without stim, without marauders, in the middle of the field, to get kited and die. "Wtf I am talking about" is your scenario wouldn't commonly happen due to other interferences. The only time stalkers would really be kiting marines would before marauders hit the field, similar to goons fighting marines against FD in BW. Who said he didn't? You are writing a post to tell him how to win in a micro war without taking in any other factors of the game? That makes no sense. Especially when what I'm factoring in is an incredibly common unit to be on the field, even more so in that given scenario. The examples you are giving this OP is as if you are placing these units in a box with no other outside interference whatsoever. I'm telling you that is the incorrect way of viewing it and when the OP tries to "kite marines with stalkers" he will find marauders and stim prevents him from doing that. If you really want to be useful, you should cover more detail in your posts.
Your reading comprehension is massively failing here. I'm not giving micro tips, I am providing "examples of scenarios where control and position is the difference between losing and winning", as I've already said, repeatedly. If you cannot understand that sentence, then please at least spare me your useless replies, because I'm out of time for you.
Obviously the micro involved during mixed composition battles is more complicated, but in case you didn't notice, I'm not talking about those examples. I offer simple examples to prove a simple point: that position and micro can be just as important as composition. Once one has the micro down in the simple case, he can begin to apply more complex micro to a more complex case.
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I'm gonna try and give you what I can as a 500+ diamond protoss.
Zealot/stalker/sentry is the core of your army, always. These are you bread and butter units. I'll go into how to skew these ratios based on MU.
PvP: Default to slight skew towards zealots. Zealots tend to do well against stalkers, but only if the stalkers can't kite. You need some stalkers behind the zealots to punish kiting stalker. If you can trap the stalks with FF then your zeals will just eat them. Also, zealots are the best gateway unit against immortals.
Immortals are strong versus stalkers, so when they enter the field you need to try and match their immortal count, build more zealots, or build phoenixes to pick them off with graviton beam. I like using phoenixes myself, because they also deal with the natural tech progression from immortal to collosus.
Against collosus play, phoenixes are ok, but if you don't already have a gate you're better of with chargelots and blink stalkers. These let you mitigate the great range of an upgraded collosus. For cliff fighting, make sure you have vision so you can shoot/blink up.
The best answer to void rays IMO are blink stalkers.
PvZ: Zealots murder zerglings, roaches murder zealots, stalkers murder roaches, and zerglings murder stalkers. This is the basic counter system of PvZ early game. Once the zerg gets hydras, he can push back pretty much any gateway composition, so you need either collosi or HT to deal with hydra play.
Phoenixes and blink stalkers deal with mutas quite efficiently.
Against brood lords, phoenixes are a good option, and blink stalkers do alright too with some zeals there to deal with the broodlings. Immortals are your best answer to ultralisks.
PvT: Zealots are good against both marines and marauders if they can prevent kiting. Stalkers die to marauders alone. However, it is very hard to fight marauders without some stalker support, as their ranged attack is necessary to punish kiting. A well placed FF can also prevent kiting and allow your zealots to engage the T bio head-on, in which case they will win.
Collosi are good against a bio ball, but will fall to vikings very quickly. HT are the other solution to the bio ball, but are vulnerable to ghost feedback/snipe. This is why bio play is so hard to fight as protoss, the only real answer is to just play better.
Void rays can rock through massive tank lines, and phoenixes can be used to break up smaller tank lines with their grav beams. Chargelots are ok against tanks, stalkers will fall apart though, although blink can help them close the distance in some situations.
Final Note: Take all this with a grain of salt, I'm a mediocre diamond, not a pro.
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On September 14 2010 06:54 ToxNub wrote:
Your reading comprehension is massively failing here. I'm not giving micro tips, I am providing "examples of scenarios where control and position is the difference between losing and winning", as I've already said, repeatedly. If you cannot understand that sentence, then please at least spare me your useless replies, because I'm out of time for you.
Obviously the micro involved during mixed composition battles is more complicated, but in case you didn't notice, I'm not talking about those examples. I offer simple examples to prove a simple point: that position and micro can be just as important as composition. Once one has the micro down in the simple case, he can begin to apply more complex micro to a more complex case.
My reading comprehension is massively failing because I'm stating your "scenarios" don't ever exist, so your information doesn't matter? And also, you summed up what you should have said in the beginning right here "Obviously the micro involved during mixed composition battles is more complicated." How would the person reading your post, be aware at all of anything that can go wrong with what you said in your first post, unless you stated it in there? This was my whole point.
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After reading all the feedback about colossus being bad against terran: I kind of agree, because with a bioball they will most likely have a reactor on their starport to pump medivacs, so once they catch on that you got colossi, they can just mass vikings as a hard counter.
Wouldn't it be best to hallucinate colossi every time you engage? then after a while they will have invested many resources into vikings, while you teched up to HT
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Russian Federation1132 Posts
I would like to add some notes about PvZ:
Zealots actually do well vs Roaches if they are not kited, whether this is early game off creep or mid game with charge. Do get charge, it's crucial for PvZ (and PvT IMO). Zealots with charge deal much more damage.
To deal with early Roaches get Zealots + Stalkers (gotta assume that ratio have to depend on ling count, but IMO anyway u wanna have more Zealots).
Immortals also beat Roaches hardly but i prefer Templar tech to Robo tech since it lets you to get charge and storms (blink also if needed).
Hydras rape you if u haven't Colossi or High Templars with storms up. Since it's wellknown fact you need to plan teching to one of these units.
Mutas screws you very hard, u gotta have cannons, since if not - u can't push. To deal with mass muta you need storms. The best way imo to counter (or prevent) mutas is to go 2 Stargate into Phoenix right after applying early 2 Gateways pressure. Phoenix micro is quite intensive but grants you huge economic lead if your 2 Gate pressure was efficient (i have to say that if you fail hard with 2 Gates then you probably lose, atleast works for me, heh). It's obv that Z will unlikely go Mutas if you already have Phoenixes.
Infestors are very sick but i usualy have Templars to feedback them so it's not a big deal.
Broodlords gets pwned by blink Stalkers and Void Rays (the first one is far more often).
And Ultras are the pure pain and suffering. It works great to tank them with Zealots and Archons (which you will have since sometimesTemplars run OOM  ). Tanking them with Stalkers, Immortals and Colossi is a very bad idea.
Sentrys are OP, so add few of them into each composition u have, since there always be a possibility to effictively use FF and GS. And u need to have decent number of Zealots everytime.
Also, if you are asking about late-game comp i would have both Stroms and Colossi (anyway you need several observers), since it boosts effectiveness of your army and lowers the ammount of precise storms you have to land.
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EPT
