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Hey, everyone. Platinum level Protoss player here.
For a while now, I've been hovering around the Diamond level, and I'm about to cross that line. I've got around 400 games of experience, but I've got a primary concern in my game-
How can I take that next step from 'good player' to 'great player'? I realize, Diamond doesn't immediately mean I'll be playing professionals, but I feel like I've plateaued at my current skill level. I have numerous build orders in my arsenal, I usually scout well, I pay attention to the current meta game and I watch a lot of professional matches, but sometimes, I just feel like even when I do get into Diamond, I'll still be at that Platinum skill level.
What are some general tips any Diamond players out there can give to help me progress from being good to great? Thanks.
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You will be surprised, the difference isnt all that big. When I got promoted i lost quite a few games, but after some time starting winning decently again, soooo 
Just keep on playing and you will figure out the slightly different gamestyle often present in diamond imo .
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get a build order down to perfect execution until atleast 40-50ish supply
play enough ladder/practice games to learn the cheeses in every matchup and how to defend them
be conscious of your macro and always try to keep your money low and army building so that you are comfortable playing late game against most random ladder opponents
learn what different things that you scout mean so that you can react to what your opponents do instead of just following the same plan every game
easy diamond?
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all i can say is practice with diamond players for all three races. Other than that, its just being really nitpicky about what you do. I'm diamond rank 14 and as a zerg player, i just familiarized myself with the metagame, and always thought ahead. You should also practice your late game micro and base management skills. Anyway, just practice with a diamond friend. If you need one, just pm me and i'll add you.
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Assuming Standard Play
Copper->Silver: Constant scv production
Silver->Gold: Constant army production
Gold->Platinum: Micro while Macro
Plat->Diamond: Read and react
Diamond->Pro: Get superaccount like dayvie
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I don't think this belongs to sc2 strategy. Should be under sc2 general
But to address your concerns...
Aside from some of the comments above, crank up your mouse speed a bit and work on your apm. A good 100 apm would carry your games far down the road.
Aside from that - it's just learning from your mistakes and playing/watching people who are better than you.
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I am 900 toss player. I don't have any build order, I just do the things I want when I have the money for it. I have no 100 apm, but only 70-ish.
Just learn to defend cheeses, macro like a king, and don't forget to expand and scout. Play a lot of games.
Important: watch your own replays too. I lost yesterday to a roach allin vs my FE. But by wathing the replay I know how many cannons I exactly would have needed. I am pretty confident against a roach allin now.
Another VERY important thing: spread your units and make an arc before engaging the enemy. Make sure the zealots arent behind the stalkers (cause they will get stuck). Learned this by watching VODs of top protoss players.
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It's your apm that goes up as you improve, not the other way around.
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Hitting Diamond is easy... either play ALOT ( ive seen alot of diamonds with 50/50 win/loss ratios)
Or Win more than you lose and you will jump into diamond faster.
Reaching diamond is fairly easy as long as you, as a player has even a weak grasp of micro/macro, and some build orders.
Now hitting High diamonds 700-800+ means your really rising above the majority of players.
I hang around 500-600 diamond(toss) atm, I have alot of holes in my game, coming from a Iccup BW background i feel anyone who is D+ or higher can hit diamond with regular gameplay. C- and up should ease diamond with relative ease.
(For those not familar with iccup it was a broodwar league, which incorporated antihack and tourneys and such, players were ranks from A - D. A and B's were relatively hard to come by(if fact ive never even run into an A), C's were very Solid players(this is where i would put the average diamond), D+'s would be those just that are really starting to understand the game.)
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On August 24 2010 18:06 Alaric wrote:
It's your apm that goes up as you improve, not the other way around.
If you focus on what you need to remember, such as making workers, units, expanding, adding structures, you will get used to moving faster to do those things. Also make sure you know how to deal with various strategies that your opponents will throw at you besides just knowing your own BO.
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No big difference... Just skill level wise like macro, economy, timings have to be improved, other than that everyone in plat and diamond already knows their basic builds and unit compositions in every MU.
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Find your worst matchup and opening and work on just that. Also just play a ton more even if it feels like you're not getting better.
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I was placed in silver and have found the same thing when moving up each time, (now in diamond) higher league players have better macro. That's pretty much the major thing. Fewer silly mistakes, better unit composition and not far better micro. Just macro macro macro.
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Diamond isn't really that much different than Plat. You just have to work on your probe/army production and know when to expand. Stop 4-gating everything that moves, and start FEing vs Z, 3gate robo vs P and I dunno what vs T. You have to learn to solidify your advantage once you get it, no allin 1 base crap anymore. If you win a battle don't spam out of your intial gates like a madman but instead put up a nexus, get more gates, control the map, scout him from time to time etc.
It really isn't a big jump.
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TBH , I am still stuck in Plat , but it's true that the more i progress in my league , the more i feel like I muscle memorized my BO and my game
PS : Copper league still exist ?
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I'm in diamond, and as random, and the only BO I have nailed down is the korean 4gate all in for pvp (by necessity for the build). Every other build I honestly just wing it alittle bit, with a general plan in mind. I would say that some of the critical things that you need to do are work on macroing during battles, and positioning, positioning, positioning. The ability to anticipate attacks so that, for example, if you poke 4 lings up a terran ramp and see 1 marine, you immedatly get another queen and an evo chamber while using your lings to try to harass the front of the base.
Alot of it is just attention management - knowing what to pay attention to, when. Sometimes it's important to stop macroing and just focus on microing, and sometimes you just have to macro and let your army do its work.
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It would help a lot if you could provide us with some analysis so we can comment on what you can improve on.
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i dont like the argument that 50/50 diamond players aren't that good (although some really do suck) because they are matched up against other diamond players. id rather be 50/50 diamond than lets say 80/20 gold or 60/40 plat.
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On August 24 2010 17:20 Emperor_Earth wrote:
Assuming Standard Play
Copper->Silver: Constant scv production
Silver->Gold: Constant army production
Gold->Platinum: Micro while Macro
Plat->Diamond: Read and react
Diamond->Pro: Get superaccount like dayvie
I strongly disagree on that one.
I am right now in Platinum-League ( I started in gold and got promoted pretty quickly)
and what I am right now really working on is to macro without sloppiness during battles or even scouting processes. You might also call that multitasking. I believe that if I can take that stage and also macro properly while my units are fighting (especially as zerg or toss - since it takes more to just press a number and then some hotkeys) than I will surpass most platinum players finally get to diamond.
The reasons why I lose is because DURING BATTLES my macro gets sloppy (forgetting to make supply, place buildings, set up an expansion) so that I have overmins or supply issues or an expo with only 15 workers mining.
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Diamond doesn't mean anything honestly. I made diamond with less than 30 games played(Went like 20-10) and SC2 is the first RTS game I've entered the competitive scene with.
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Practice macro to 300 AMP. XD Drones shift click mineral to base. Make sure you have all lings dance with shift patrol.
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On August 25 2010 00:09 Cynoks wrote:
Diamond doesn't mean anything honestly. I made diamond with less than 30 games played(Went like 20-10) and SC2 is the first RTS game I've entered the competitive scene with.
Yeah, I think the points you have in diamond do correspond better to skill. I was a 300 in diamond as Zerg and I didn't even know you could spread creep! TBH I also didn't even know all the counters, I just overwhelmed most opponents, or when I lost I said TERRAN IS OP.
Now I'm a ~600+ diamond and my game is just sooo much better. I think there is a clear division between the 300 (new diamonds) and the +500s
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Playing Plat players to get into diamond, I found they often had obvious deficiencies (as I do).
I'd say most did not expand and macro aggressively enough. Having played against Green Tea ai at the end of beta, it was pretty shocking. They'd be on one base when they could have been on three.
A lot didn't have any clue how to counter me, they simply went with whatever gameplan they had from the start.
A lot threw away units in bad attacks, or didn't set up proper defenses.
They almost all had equal or more apm than me. A lot of stupid actions is not good. Focus on quality of action, done quickly.
So my advise is play to your strengths while working on your weaknesses. If you are good with micro be aggressive but learn to be a macro beast while you do it. If you are good at macro, learn to be more aggressive and micro better. And think about the game after you win or lose. What would have worked. Don't just ragequit and start a new game.
And get practice partners to simulate the builds that give you trouble so you can see if any theorycraft actually works. And play against the computer to perfect build orders.
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As Terran one of the barriers I had in moving up during diamond is knowing the right time to throw down extra fax/ rax / starports beyond my opening build order.
To generalize.. learning how to transition out of early game into a strong position will set you far above a plat player. Along the same lines, learning how to properly capitalize on a midgame advantage will make you a stronger player and help you move up in diamond.
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On August 24 2010 16:37 fabioisonfire wrote:
Hey, everyone. Platinum level Protoss player here.
For a while now, I've been hovering around the Diamond level, and I'm about to cross that line. I've got around 400 games of experience, but I've got a primary concern in my game-
How can I take that next step from 'good player' to 'great player'? I realize, Diamond doesn't immediately mean I'll be playing professionals, but I feel like I've plateaued at my current skill level. I have numerous build orders in my arsenal, I usually scout well, I pay attention to the current meta game and I watch a lot of professional matches, but sometimes, I just feel like even when I do get into Diamond, I'll still be at that Platinum skill level.
What are some general tips any Diamond players out there can give to help me progress from being good to great? Thanks.
Read Ver's guide. It was written for BW but most of the mind-frame and skill-building applies to Sc2 just fine.
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Scouting is just as important as mining minerals. Receiving intel and processing it, and incorporating that into your strategy is critical. Army composition is critical. Multitasking is so important!
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I have made it from Bronze to Diamond by simply watching all of my replays, whether I win or lose as well as replays of better players.
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I honestly don't think the leagues mean a damn thing. Generally speaking, better players will be concentrated near the top leagues and worse players will be concentrated near the bottom leagues, but I also think there is a high rate of randomness involved as well.
Watching the TL attack streams and listening to the announcers, you would think all you have to do is face-roll and you can get into Diamond. As they put it, "Diamond is the same skill level as just playing ICCUP in BW."
I think that is a bunch of crap. The real problem is the relative nature of the Leagues and Ladders system. I don't know how good their algorithms are, but they don't seem to be that smart. You move up and down inside your own league by winning and losing matches in general and earning or losing points, but you move up and down leagues by winning and losing matches to people in other leagues.
Think of it like a race. Let say you got 10 guys together, who partook in a race, and everyone of them beat the world record for a mile. Guess what? One of them still comes in last, no matter how fast he ran, because he was being judged by how fast he was compared to the other guys in the race. The racing problem is especially prevalent since we are all broken up into different division and not put into one big pool (which isn't a terrible thing). The fastest racers from one pool may be slower than the middle of the pack in another.
It may be easy to get into Diamond in one division, and really hard in another, if you happen to have a lot of top tier players in there. Unlike a race though, you can't measure people's skill in starcraft based on their finish time like you can in a race. You can only compare their wins and loses, which is like just comparing their finishing place in the race.
Let's say that I am a new player who is amazing. I play my first 5 matches and they are all against silver and bronze players. Even though I stomped them, I still get stuck in bronze because I didn't play players in high leagues. In theory, I will keep winning and moving up until I get to Diamond where I belong. What happens though, when I get paired with a couple other people in the same boat in Bronze and silver? I end up losing some matches to "low level" players and my advancement is stalled.
On the other hand, let's say that I am a mediocre player at best, and I happen to win a match or two in my qualifier games against Platinum and Diamond players because they were playing an off race, or were drunk, or had to disconnect for some reason, etc.. I get placed in Platinum or Diamond because I beat "good players". In theory, I should move down as I keep losing, but while I am at the top, players who aren't very good who get paired against me will get credit for beating a "good player", and get credit for moving up.
I don't have any data or statistics to back this up, only my knowledge of how it works and my experience playing. I have played with, and against people of every league, and honestly, I wouldn't have guessed where they were until I looked at their profile. The whole thing is a crap shoot. Don't pay attention to the leagues. That is my opinion.
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I agree a lot with SFdrew.
Though I would add: usually by looking at the division / points / number of games played u get a good gauge of actual skill. The actual division itself imo means close to nothing, like you said, based on the random placement of who you are matched up against in your placement games.
So, if you see a person that is diamond / 500 points / 150 games played, he is probably a decent player. If you see someone that is diamond / 170 points / 20 games played, it's a crap shoot -- could be good, could be bad.
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I would also add that it makes a big difference what time of day and which day of the week you play. The system tries to match you up with players of higher leagues "once and a while" while making most of your games with players in the same league, however, if you play during weird hours, like in the middle of the night, or when people are at work and school, then there won't be as many people on, and it will have to pair you with somebody.
The kinds of people who play at those hours are usually better players because they play more, so you'll have more chances to move up. If you play only on Friday nights when everybody and their mother is on, then 50 wins could mean nothing if you hardly ever play people in higher leagues, but if you play at 3am, or on say, a Tuesday morning, then you will likely get paired with a lot more people in higher leagues, where 50 wins will catapult you to the top.
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Calgary25977 Posts
You're going to get a lot of bad advice here from people who post what worked for them as if it's gospel.
I would pick what works for you and try to tighten that up specifically. If you are good at making build orders, spend time perfecting your build orders. If you are good at macro, concentrate on streamlining expansions and pumping out a shitload of units. If you have good unit control, really force yourself to extract maximum value from your builds. If you are good at on-the-fly thinking, focus on scouting and countering through both unit production and tactics.
I think you really only need a single good ability to do well in diamond at this level.
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Not that big of a jump dont worry. Basically you could almost always improve your macro or adjust your build order to squeeze those few extra workers out in the early game.
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To add something to the division-doesnt-mean-anything-discussion... the more games you play the more accurate the system is.
So If you play a diamond guy with 35games he might be bad, if you face a gold guy with 10games he might be diamondskilled but did not play enough games to get promoted.
But the average skilllevel is low, pretty low. Reaching Diamond doesnt mean anything. You just dont have to be a total dumbass and play around 50games and try to improve after every game and you should make it in no time. Staying in diamond is easy as well.
But the skillspread in diamond is huge. There are the goldish guys that allined/cheesed their way into diamond, then there are the solid guys(not much of a difference to platinium guys) Then there real good guys and on top of that the pros.
But to finally get back to topic... its hard to take this step(I mean to become a really great player). You need the talent and the practice obviously. If you are intelligent enough to find something to improve on every single game, then you are lucky. If you cant find anything to do better then you might have reached your skillcap. You need some help or even coaching. But untill this point you just have to play many maaaanny games and try to improve.
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Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. I can provide some more information about my playstyle as well-
My current 1v1 record is 212-192, so I'm +20, and I have 564 points. I don't know why I haven't been upped to Diamond yet, but I know that it's about to happen. I played Brood War (I was very young, however, and would just mass cannons or some shit.) for a short time, and I've always been a big Starcraft fan. Got the game on release day, and I sucked at first, and I've been getting better ever since (hence the many wins/losses). I watch Day[9], and regular commentaries from people like HD, Joshy, and Husky.
Anyway, I always go 9 Pylon, and scout. VS. Terran, I almost always harass with my initial Probe, and I usually assume there's going to be Reapers or a bio-ball, so I usually go with 2gate1robo unless I see something else crazy. VS. Protoss and Zerg I scout at the same time, looking for the ever-common 2gate or fast Void Rays VS. Protoss and watching for any fast expands so I can overwhelm the Zerg opponent with units. I'm comfortable enough with the game to be able to adjust my build order depending on what my opponent is doing.
I'd say my strength is definitely early game, cute tactics, micro, and unit control. My weakness is definitely late-game, without any doubt in my mind. I never know when to expand when entering the mid-game, so I'd say my macro needs improvements.
I can provide replays, if anyone's really interested. Thanks.
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