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On August 26 2010 06:40 TehForce wrote:
why should 3-gate not conter this build? i always get 1 gate more as my opponent when he is trying to zealotrush me and i easily outproduce his zealots
it takes quite a time in order for 3 gate to be "optimized." 10/10 gate is very efficient, it has just enough probes to support 2 gate barely, while having gates out asap. If you actually try to go 3 gate against this, you are
1.down 150mineral, and gateway take long time to build
2.you can't really support 3 gate early on.
You probably experienced 12/13 gates, and 3 gate is viable against that since zealots come very late compared to it. I recommend trying 3 gate against a friend who's doing 10/10 gate - you'll see what i mean.
**edit what I'm saying is, 2 gate is better to stop this.
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What's the advantage of 9 pylon over 10 pylon if you're just cutting probes anyways to make 10/10 gate? Wouldn't you be better going 10 pylon?
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A 13gate/scout -> gas -> core -> zealot(chrono), probe cut for 2nd gate, pull probes off gas after 50 or after 100 if scouted enemy later, start warpgate -> second zealot, third zealot on constant chrono until 2nd gate finishes -> 2gate zealots. This should hold just fine.
The way it works is that they'll have more probes and warpgate incoming, while having same zealot count due to travel time. Basically, they'll get 3zealots ten seconds later than your 3zealots reach him on close positions, and when his 3rd zealot is out, his 2nd gate finishes, and you're both out of chrono boost -> so it'll be 5v5, etc. I don't believe 10 seconds is enough to overcome the massive probe setback with harrass - you'd barely reach probe line.
I think a better build is a 12/14 gate, with same 3chrono on gates, and scout after 2nd gate started.
Difference is 10second later attack, but if they teched, they still have to cut probes for 2nd gate in case you get 4th/5th zealot - and when you see a probe cut 2nd gate timing, you can get gas/core instead and switch to defensive, using the probe advantage and hard-to-push-through-zealots-even-with-earlier-warp ramp. Or you could get 4th/5th zealot but go for their probes and trade units for economy, turtling hardcore for some time later.
It also is better off against 10/10 proxy. The fight is still in your territory(at least, if they proxied really close), so you risk getting harrassed, but you have more probes this time and same zealot count as proxy gater's.
If they forged, you have more probes than off of 10/10, you can expand faster.
If they went for a 2gate -> chrono on probes, you are less behind than with 10/10. If it's a 2player map, you have option to _not_ chrono 2nd/3rd zealot, but chrono probes when you see him 2gate as well. If it's 4player map and they go for chrono probes and 2 gate, they're probably losing a lot of games to core openings (those get time to grab 3zealots against 3zealots -> no pressure, 2nd gate, 4zeals/sentry to separate a 5zealot attack in parts, warpgate incoming, etc). Even if they did it's not much of a difference.
I believe a 13gate->(save chrono, use only one after gate)->core->small probe cut for 2nd gate to be another 'counter' to this build(first one being 2gate chrono probes), but it's not countering as hard as it counters 10/10, and it's only bonus is getting a faster warpgate. You, however, hold the intiative to not get 4th/5th zealot if they cut probes for 2nd gate, but instead get gas/core and chrono warpgate to catch up while switching to defensive play.
EDIT:
You probably experienced 12/13 gates, and 3 gate is viable against that since zealots come very late compared to it. I recommend trying 3 gate against a friend who's doing 10/10 gate - you'll see what i mean.
Please try a 12/14 gate with scouting after 2nd gate and chronoing all 3 zealots. I saw 3zealots reaching enemy base at 04:10 close spots at your replay, and it was 04:20 for my 2gates, but with a bunch of probes more.
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On August 26 2010 07:00 Soulforged wrote:A 13gate/scout -> gas -> core -> zealot(chrono), probe cut for 2nd gate, pull probes off gas after 50 or after 100 if scouted enemy later, start warpgate -> second zealot, third zealot on constant chrono until 2nd gate finishes -> 2gate zealots. This should hold just fine. The way it works is that they'll have more probes and warpgate incoming, while having same zealot count due to travel time. Basically, they'll get 3zealots ten seconds later than your 3zealots reach him on close positions, and when his 3rd zealot is out, his 2nd gate finishes, and you're both out of chrono boost -> so it'll be 5v5, etc. I don't believe 10 seconds is enough to overcome the massive probe setback with harrass - you'd barely reach probe line. I think a better build is a 12/14 gate, with same 3chrono on gates, and scout after 2nd gate started. Difference is 10second later attack, but if they teched, they still have to cut probes for 2nd gate in case you get 4th/5th zealot - and when you see a probe cut 2nd gate timing, you can get gas/core instead and switch to defensive, using the probe advantage and hard-to-push-through-zealots-even-with-earlier-warp ramp. Or you could get 4th/5th zealot but go for their probes and trade units for economy, turtling hardcore for some time later. It also is better off against 10/10 proxy. The fight is still in your territory(at least, if they proxied really close), so you risk getting harrassed, but you have more probes this time and same zealot count as proxy gater's. If they forged, you have more probes than off of 10/10, you can expand faster. If they went for a 2gate -> chrono on probes, you are less behind than with 10/10. If it's a 2player map, you have option to _not_ chrono 2nd/3rd zealot, but chrono probes when you see him 2gate as well. If it's 4player map and they go for chrono probes and 2 gate, they're probably losing a lot of games to core openings (those get time to grab 3zealots against 3zealots -> no pressure, 2nd gate, 4zeals/sentry to separate a 5zealot attack in parts, warpgate incoming, etc). Even if they did it's not much of a difference. I believe a 13gate->(save chrono, use only one after gate)->core->small probe cut for 2nd gate to be another 'counter' to this build(first one being 2gate chrono probes), but it's not countering as hard as it counters 10/10, and it's only bonus is getting a faster warpgate. You, however, hold the intiative to not get 4th/5th zealot if they cut probes for 2nd gate, but instead get gas/core and chrono warpgate to catch up while switching to defensive play. EDIT: Show nested quote +
You probably experienced 12/13 gates, and 3 gate is viable against that since zealots come very late compared to it. I recommend trying 3 gate against a friend who's doing 10/10 gate - you'll see what i mean.
Please try a 12/14 gate with scouting after 2nd gate and chronoing all 3 zealots. I saw 3zealots reaching enemy base at 04:10 close spots at your replay, and it was 04:20 for my 2gates, but with a bunch of probes more.
I'm having a hard time believing this.. want to try this in action? PM me.
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Watched the last 2 replays vs whoop.
Going stalkers is NOT the way to go vs this build just clearly by reading the build explained at OP. The zealots only take 9 damage each (without shields since +1 armor at zealot) and the build time is longer than a zealot and the easiest part is that a stalker is better than a zealot when you're microing meaning you can't lose focus on your stalker which many people will lose so your stalker is effectively worse than a zealot except high tiered players or pros probably (or not).
The offensive player however can go attack anything he wants to and keep his stalkers busy with a 2 zealots for each stalker and the remaining zealots can do whatever the agressor likes to do which is the strong side of this strategy.
@OP
What if someone walls off and canons up a few canons ?
You can attack the forge/gateway walloff but will you lose only a few more zealots than when you'd wall off against gate/cyber with a stalker behind hitting you?
This build is however you'd look at it always better than any warpgate build since warpgate will always come too late vs this build and any gate-cyber build.
There is no way you should be going a stalker.
That means the only way possible to counter this is either know he goes 10/10 gate and also do the same or somehow get a few canons up (probably need at least 3? to fend off but this means you'll be behind in tech I guess compared to the guy 10/10 gating you).
Have you lost any PvP with this build @OP?
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This build isn't unbeatable or close to it. It's just 12 gate core to stalkers CAN NOT stop it, even if you do a block. Read the OP ... there are clearly scenarios where this build has problems. It's borderline all-in against some builds.
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I don't really understand the point of doing this build -- I get it has metagame influences and so you have to account for it (you can't just blindly 13 gate into fast core with no zealot or scouting) but at the same time its 100% scoutable and provided the person scouting it knows what they're doing, they're just gonna be at an advantage. A more economic 2 gate opening (12/13, etc.) that abuses the travel distance just inevitably eeks ahead. Sure, you CAN make up the difference through superior micro, but I'm not sure why I'd bother volunteering to go a build, that if scouted (and everyone should really be pylon-scouting in PvP) instantly puts me at a disadvantage with the hope that he just happens to do something dumb and do a build I happen to autowin against.
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On August 26 2010 07:35 shannn wrote:
Watched the last 2 replays vs whoop.
Going stalkers is NOT the way to go vs this build just clearly by reading the build explained at OP. The zealots only take 9 damage each (without shields since +1 armor at zealot) and the build time is longer than a zealot and the easiest part is that a stalker is better than a zealot when you're microing meaning you can't lose focus on your stalker which many people will lose so your stalker is effectively worse than a zealot except high tiered players or pros probably (or not).
The offensive player however can go attack anything he wants to and keep his stalkers busy with a 2 zealots for each stalker and the remaining zealots can do whatever the agressor likes to do which is the strong side of this strategy.
@OP
What if someone walls off and canons up a few canons ?
You can attack the forge/gateway walloff but will you lose only a few more zealots than when you'd wall off against gate/cyber with a stalker behind hitting you?
This build is however you'd look at it always better than any warpgate build since warpgate will always come too late vs this build and any gate-cyber build.
There is no way you should be going a stalker.
That means the only way possible to counter this is either know he goes 10/10 gate and also do the same or somehow get a few canons up (probably need at least 3? to fend off but this means you'll be behind in tech I guess compared to the guy 10/10 gating you).
Have you lost any PvP with this build @OP?
By no mean this build is perfect, but it is quite effective against core builds or proxy builds, which are quite common. Yea, sure, you can build cannons, but remember you spent 300 mineral on static defense.
Best way to counter this is just simply following gate - although it might be a bit difficult to handle if you used up all your chrono already.. This build's a lot more effective in 4 player maps for short distance/lower scout chance.
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On August 26 2010 07:45 Keren wrote:
I don't really understand the point of doing this build -- I get it has metagame influences and so you have to account for it (you can't just blindly 13 gate into fast core with no zealot or scouting) but at the same time its 100% scoutable and provided the person scouting it knows what they're doing, they're just gonna be at an advantage. A more economic 2 gate opening (12/13, etc.) that abuses the travel distance just inevitably eeks ahead. Sure, you CAN make up the difference through superior micro, but I'm not sure why I'd bother volunteering to go a build, that if scouted (and everyone should really be pylon-scouting in PvP) instantly puts me at a disadvantage with the hope that he just happens to do something dumb and do a build I happen to autowin against.
It's not 100% scoutable in 4 player maps - it's actually 33% chance.
I tend use this build less in 1v1 maps as I'm moving up the ladder ( They usually know to follow gate ), but I still love to do this build in 4 player maps. Just try it out in maps like LT or kulas..
Originally I worked on this build because I was tired of PvP, and wanted to end matches asap lol (it's this or 4gate anyway)
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On August 26 2010 06:58 FabledIntegral wrote:
What's the advantage of 9 pylon over 10 pylon if you're just cutting probes anyways to make 10/10 gate? Wouldn't you be better going 10 pylon?
In OP I edited that section long time ago.
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I've seen a lot of protoss doing this -- not really a fan of it.
It's pretty easy to counter, just 2gate in response, even though you've spent minerals on an assimilator, and perhaps wasted a chronoboost or two, it still doesn't put you drastically behind, and you have a massive run distance advantage.
As well after surviving the push, I've never lost afterward, so either the economic difference is too great, or players are relying on just this build to win it.
I haven't had any success continuing with core/stalkers against this however, too much time for zealots to amass, so would definitely just skip it until you're in the clear.
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I did it on DQ where I was at the 1 o clock and my opponent 9 o clock position.
He scouted me directly and my 2gate.
I managed to win the game by just doing the same thing like with the game where opponents are walling off with gate/cyber instead this time it was gate/gate.
His 3rd zealot was 10 sec too late else he would've been able to just keep me busy but I managed to destroy 1gate and I was able to just overcome him by constantly producing zealots.
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On August 26 2010 03:36 AimlessKitty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 02:38 Easy772 wrote:
walloffs own this build.. If your opponent places his pylon so that he can walloff if needed i think its almost auto lose once he gets out 1 stalker
A good idea you might want to add is to hide 1 gateway ala huck so he thinks you're playing standard then chronoboost it.. i'll let you know if i can find the replay i'm talking about Are you serious? Does anyone read the OP at all these days? Actually, you're probably a troll.. must find my happy place... Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 12:45 AimlessKitty wrote:
I am SICK of people making comments that you can just use chrono stalkers to beat this build, using gate/core wall-off. I added 2 replays to show how baseless their claim is. I was at a diagonal location at LT was still able to win (Note that both games were not even close, although I told him exactly what I was going to do). 2 gate would be the only "counter" that I would accept.
I haven't lost to this in so long. maybe since platinum (750ish diamond now). Maybe you're doing something different and you probably have WAY better micro than most if not all the players at platinum that I've faced, I apologize for offending you 
I find it hard to believe that 2 gate is the ONLY counter to this build.. Will watch the replays tonight and get back to you.
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Watched the replays.. Looks like a solid build man! nice guide.. would be interested to see the replay of this matchup.
+ Show Spoiler +A 13gate/scout -> gas -> core -> zealot(chrono), probe cut for 2nd gate, pull probes off gas after 50 or after 100 if scouted enemy later, start warpgate -> second zealot, third zealot on constant chrono until 2nd gate finishes -> 2gate zealots. This should hold just fine.
The way it works is that they'll have more probes and warpgate incoming, while having same zealot count due to travel time. Basically, they'll get 3zealots ten seconds later than your 3zealots reach him on close positions, and when his 3rd zealot is out, his 2nd gate finishes, and you're both out of chrono boost -> so it'll be 5v5, etc. I don't believe 10 seconds is enough to overcome the massive probe setback with harrass - you'd barely reach probe line.
I think a better build is a 12/14 gate, with same 3chrono on gates, and scout after 2nd gate started.
Difference is 10second later attack, but if they teched, they still have to cut probes for 2nd gate in case you get 4th/5th zealot - and when you see a probe cut 2nd gate timing, you can get gas/core instead and switch to defensive, using the probe advantage and hard-to-push-through-zealots-even-with-earlier-warp ramp. Or you could get 4th/5th zealot but go for their probes and trade units for economy, turtling hardcore for some time later.
It also is better off against 10/10 proxy. The fight is still in your territory(at least, if they proxied really close), so you risk getting harrassed, but you have more probes this time and same zealot count as proxy gater's.
If they forged, you have more probes than off of 10/10, you can expand faster.
If they went for a 2gate -> chrono on probes, you are less behind than with 10/10. If it's a 2player map, you have option to _not_ chrono 2nd/3rd zealot, but chrono probes when you see him 2gate as well. If it's 4player map and they go for chrono probes and 2 gate, they're probably losing a lot of games to core openings (those get time to grab 3zealots against 3zealots -> no pressure, 2nd gate, 4zeals/sentry to separate a 5zealot attack in parts, warpgate incoming, etc). Even if they did it's not much of a difference.
I believe a 13gate->(save chrono, use only one after gate)->core->small probe cut for 2nd gate to be another 'counter' to this build(first one being 2gate chrono probes), but it's not countering as hard as it counters 10/10, and it's only bonus is getting a faster warpgate. You, however, hold the intiative to not get 4th/5th zealot if they cut probes for 2nd gate, but instead get gas/core and chrono warpgate to catch up while switching to defensive play.
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Any chance you can get all the replays in one file on megaupload or something similar? makes it easier to download them all!!
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Just had this build done against me. Scouted it on close positions on Metalopolis. I went 13 gate. planned to go core, but I saw his double gate, so I threw my own down.
Here is the replay.
You can check out my comments on the match at my blog.
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On August 26 2010 12:14 Easy772 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:36 AimlessKitty wrote:On August 26 2010 02:38 Easy772 wrote:
walloffs own this build.. If your opponent places his pylon so that he can walloff if needed i think its almost auto lose once he gets out 1 stalker
A good idea you might want to add is to hide 1 gateway ala huck so he thinks you're playing standard then chronoboost it.. i'll let you know if i can find the replay i'm talking about Are you serious? Does anyone read the OP at all these days? Actually, you're probably a troll.. must find my happy place... On August 25 2010 12:45 AimlessKitty wrote:
I am SICK of people making comments that you can just use chrono stalkers to beat this build, using gate/core wall-off. I added 2 replays to show how baseless their claim is. I was at a diagonal location at LT was still able to win (Note that both games were not even close, although I told him exactly what I was going to do). 2 gate would be the only "counter" that I would accept. I haven't lost to this in so long. maybe since platinum (750ish diamond now). Maybe you're doing something different and you probably have WAY better micro than most if not all the players at platinum that I've faced, I apologize for offending you I find it hard to believe that 2 gate is the ONLY counter to this build.. Will watch the replays tonight and get back to you.
Sorry dude.. I just raged a bit at all the people's "Lol this get owned by X" comments although I clearly provided replays and reasons why going core first won't work.
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On August 26 2010 17:55 Tommylew wrote:
Any chance you can get all the replays in one file on megaupload or something similar? makes it easier to download them all!!
Maybe you should use chrome where you can just click them to auto-download 
Trolling aside, you don't really need to watch them all.. just watch the first replay, any replay against non-walloff to core and one core wall-off.
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10/10 is terribadly counter by 12/12 since the guy will have much better eco. I used to 10/10 and now I just 12/12, if the guy holds it off then I still have an economic advantage. Fun build though, doesn't work vs very good players.
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On August 27 2010 07:37 whiteguycash wrote:Just had this build done against me. Scouted it on close positions on Metalopolis. I went 13 gate. planned to go core, but I saw his double gate, so I threw my own down. Here is the replay. You can check out my comments on the match at my blog.
after holding it off, wouldn't it be better to just build a 3rd gate and just end the game right there 
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EPT
