|
QXC v Machine
here we see a high-level TvZ game where QXC makes excellent use of ghosts.
It is a long macro game, and you can see there were plenty of large-scale battles to use ghosts to their fullest. Every ghost ability is used (snipe, cloak, EMP, and nuke), this game is a spectacular showcase for the strength of ghosts in TvZ.
But being a zerg player, I of course watched the game from the zerg's perspective: what could the zerg have done? How to counter this? What zerg mistakes were made?
Game synopsis:
+ Show Spoiler +Macro game where QXC goes for MMMG, deliberately getting his first few ghosts pretty early so that they can build up their energy. Machine constantly switches out a combination of ling/bane/muta/roach all-game long, eventually adding ultra at the end. He is ultimately unsuccessful and loses.
The idea of using MMMG:
-MMM is vulnerable to fungal growth, muta, and baneling. Ghosts can cover all of these counters. Snipe is used on banelings & mutas, and they can also EMP infestors, making them useless. You can see that QXC does exactly this all game long.
-EMP on infestors -> without fungal growth to hold marauders in place, marauder stim micro > ultra, making ultra ineffective against MMMG. You also see this happen when Machine tries to use ultras.
-ghost forces zerg to use additional gas on multiple overseers, which are then vulnerable to snipe. Machine makes decent use of his overseers, trying to contaminate QXC's barracks, but delaying 2 barracks out of 7 or 8 for only 30 seconds doesn't really do much.
-nuke harass is extremely effective mid-game & late-game + Show Spoiler +It seems Machine doesn't even realize that he's been nuked multiple times at the end because he had turned his sound off (lol)
What I feel Machine could have done differently:
-not grouped all of his infestors together, and perhaps made better use of burrowed infestors
-made use of corruptors/broodlords late-game, although vikings are so good against them and QXC already had reactor starport (for medivacs) that I'm not sure if he would have been able to do any damage with them
What are your thoughts?
|
TBH as a Zerg player (I've played 400+ games including beta), I have only had Terran use ghosts on me like twice total. I think they are very underused and underestimated by terran players. The best counter I have found is Roach spam, but again I am really not sure. They do a lot of damage but shoot pretty slow, so I guess speedlings would be good.
|
i actually saw this on Trump's stream last night he as actually LOLing while using this ghost build he basically massed about 50 suppply of maurad. and then 4 ghosts and then attacked the mauders stimmed and destroyed everything obviously the counter is muta but the 4 ghosts obliterated about 7 mutas in a instant with full energy snipe. (warning inc zerg rage) I just think its stupid how many strategies that T has to steamroll Zerg, however as you said i think
That burrowed infestors might could have been better microd, and broodlords sound good sure but they can get vikings out so fast with the double reactor. I think machine just got out played plus all his units were counterd by what Machine had.
|
Ghost play in ZvT is pretty awesome. Ghosts have so many uses:
1. Sniping/emping infestors
2. Sniping mutas (completely nullifies muta harass)
3. Sniping brood lords (they're actually not bad at this lol...)
4. As you said, nuke harass is very effective, even more so since people aren't used to defending against it.
The fact that ghosts pre-empt mutas means you don't really need to build marines, either. Instead of MMMG, you can go hellion marauder medivac ghost, which is actually a pretty solid unit comp. The main thing, though, is that ghosts are great against infestors, something that can't really be said for any other Terran unit besides the siege tank. And they're so flexible 
|
how does ghost snipe still stack up after the stealth nerf to sniping speed?
|
Awesome
When seeing a T play like that I'd love for them to win even if I'm Z.
I'd love for infestors to have some kind of NP that rapes mech so that the MU would evolve a bit so that we could see ghosts to directly counter infestor pay, it would mean a weaker mech army cause of gas, same goes for Z with infestors though. Man that would make the MU really interesting.
|
On August 10 2010 03:57 Izzachar wrote:
When seeing a T play like that I'd love for them to win even if I'm Z.
Agreed, lol.
I've never had a ghost used against me so far. 
|
The draw back to this build is that it is really micro intensive. QXC can pull it off but I wonder how many others could. This is just theorycrafting but roach burrow and infestors could be good vs this. Burst up in the middle of all their units, and at the same time toss a bunch of infested terrans then after you have used up most of the infestors energy unburrow and try to get some FG off before you get EMPed. The idea being make it as hard for the terran to micro by making the battle chaotic. This wouldnt work so much vs maurader and some ghost, but vs the hellion mass ghost play that QXC did it could have a chance
|
the build is actually really easy to play. you shift click R and spam it a few times on units and everything is dead. my friend prosu has been experimenting with ghosts since ~april i think?
ghosts make sense because they deter from mutalisk and because they are effective against every single zerg unit while not having an armor modifier. the sole weakness of the build comes from the fact that it is quite gas heavy.
i've had success going early mutalisk and picking off ghosts even at the loss of a few mutas. the gas tradeoff is okay since zerg should be running from 4 geysers at the point to the terran's 2. from that i try to delay the 2nd and third expos and if i can do that they are usually gas starved enough to have only a minimal number of ghosts every fight. also i think denying the third in zvt is ridiculously important right now because terran will usually planetary fortress at the third and it makes it impossible to break later on >_>.
im in diamond league at ~605 rating atm so take from my post what you will  .
|
On August 10 2010 03:41 trevf wrote:
how does ghost snipe still stack up after the stealth nerf to sniping speed?
It is retardedly powerful. 4 full energy ghosts=by 7 mutas.
Try to baneling? Snipe the banelings.
Try to broodlord? Snipe the broodlords.
Terran is invincible!
|
I've lost to mass ghost before, coming with drop on lost temple. They arrive just after you start saturating your natural. Pretty invincible with one medivac healing one ghost each. Snipe on all the drones and run away. Meanwhile he's building up marines and marches over you with marine tank push. One of many retarded terran strats vs. zerg
|
You have to be some kind of micro god to be able to snipe banelings that are mixed in with lings/roaches.
|
this should be reacted towards by simply having more stuff than him mainly in the form of lings and blings with some roach and maybe some mutalisk sprinkled on top but basically ghosts cost alot of gas, marauders cost a decent amount of gas.
This means its a rax heavy build, no significant number of sieged tanks will be out, vikings are delayed. Thor wont come for a while. Hellions might see the light strolling alongside ghosts and marauders but even they wont be of significant number.
Hmm, I think KvZ is spot on.
|
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=139944
Ghosts are Pretty powerfull, in light of a loss to ghosts, i dared bump this post. roach dosnt work because of a large amount of marauders, Just what exactly do you do against a 3 rax reaper into marauder into ghost opening on kulas ravine / metalopolis?
it seems to me that it covers everything you need to worry about and more.
|
I've come across some ghost reps since last week, both winning and losing vs them.
LiquidJinro v mTwDIMAGA Jinro using ghostplay against DIMAGA, and doing very well.
CatZ v Trump Trump plays too passively here, but it shows that if you can get to Ultras then ghosts can't really do much IF the terran doesn't have lots of marauders
SLush v ajtls not optimal play, but it shows that if you can get infestors into good position and avoid EMP, then fungal growth + ling/bane rapes MMG bad. killer comeback btw
|
Just from the replay in the OP, I see a Terran outmacroing a zerg, getting his entire army wiped every battle up to 25 minutes, being unable to use up his snipes before banelings steamrolled him, and only winning by nuke harass and drops (nukes wiped a ton of drones since Machine had his sound off and didn't react)... This is the most eerie role reversal replay ever =P
QXC is awesome and I love him, but mass ghosts is ineffective. Getting a few ghosts is great however.
I'll watch the other replays, but so far I'm unconvinced :|. Think of it this way: for every 4 ghosts, you could have 3 thors instead. It's sad though because I'd love to roll with mass ghosts instead of mech.
Edit: second replay: Jinro shows how it should be done imo. Only get about 4 ghosts. Use drops and nukes to harass. Be all over the place.
Third replay: endgame chat "QXC has nice mass ghost play, but you have to mix it up, you can't just go pure ghosts"
"lesson learned"
"I got lucky. if you had that same defense but with tanks, I can't break it"
|
Another case of people massively underestimating how expensive ghosts are. 4 full energy ghosts can kill 7 mutas and then be useless? Wow! You could just spend that on thors and kill the mutas and still have thors.
Seems like QXC just played much better and machine was shellshocked and didn't know how to respond.
|
I trained against my brother who tried a Ghost Build and it really works.
Naturally, you would Make Muta, Speedling and Baneling against Bio, but Banelings don't really work because they get sniped before they arrive, so you really have to micro pretty hard to make it effective.
The addition of Infestors makes it easier to hit with the Blings, but they get EMP'd by the Ghosts.
Also, this Terran build doesn't have the downside of beeing immobile like Mech.
Lategame, you don't have many options too, because Ultras aren't a smart Choice because of Marauders and Ghost sniping. Blords also get countered pretty hard (easily available Vikings with Reactor Starport or Ghost Snipe).
I' think Hydra Roach Speedling could work though. And Infestors are also quite nice if you can manage to not get them EMP'd.
|
I've never played against someone who used ghosts rly well... will have to look into that.
|
Bumping this thread for more discussion; I believe that ghosts are the future of TvZ as they have a high skillcap and can work well vs every single Zerg unit.
People who have used this successfully or have been defeated by it, what seems to be a good number of ghosts? Do you open with marine + ghost and add marauders later (seems to be the best option as the first few ghosts can help repel roaches).
|
From what you are describing (MMM + ghost), seems like roach + zergling + baneling drops is an effective counter. If you have the gas, roach + hydra + baneling drops is even better.
|
ghost's are a very weak and low dps without energy. also, cloak is not so efficient... it's just a gimmick.
snipe is not as good as tanks, and since ghosts cost more than tanks, i know what i'll be massing up tbh.
props to QXC for trying something unusual though.
|
|
|
I'm just going to say something, with no intended disrespect.
That was an awful game by machine. Because I'm zerg i watched his pov only. He was very sloppy on his larva mechanic, falling behind too many times to count, and loosing battles because of that. I also see his money skyrocketing before 1 large battle, living him 1500/1500 worth of army behind, and still winning the battle by leattle.
Later, I see him on equal number of bases against a terran oponent. And with his money at 1800/1500 (after spending the prior 1500/1500).
Every try to bust qxc's expos, failed. The EMP was destructive against both mutas and infestors. And the scans were precise.
Also, machine had no sound, so didn't know about the nukes.
I agree that the ghosts are interesting, but they are very micro demanding, and very expensive. Someone said above: 4 full energy ghost > mutas @ snipe. Well. Those 4 ghosts are 600/600 minerals. That's actually not much difference, and the mutas give zerg much more ways to pay themselves.
But, yeah, with the infestors was something tragic to see. But, It would be nice to see the same situations with the propper amount of zerg units.
|
On August 10 2010 03:25 CrunkOwns wrote:
TBH as a Zerg player (I've played 400+ games including beta), I have only had Terran use ghosts on me like twice total. I think they are very underused and underestimated by terran players. The best counter I have found is Roach spam, but again I am really not sure. They do a lot of damage but shoot pretty slow, so I guess speedlings would be good.
=/ think u kinda missed the point of the OP dude.
He's not really talking about going ONLY ghost...
|
I really think ghosts aren't something that zerg can adequately "Counter" in the sense of the word used since the start of the beta. How does a zerg in BW "deal with" science vessels? Ghost usage is going to make for some very entertaining games, and zerg needs to accept them as part of the terran arsenal.
|
to add to my previous point.
ghost = 150/150
tank = 150/125
therefore if you don't get 100% efficient use out of EMP, snipe or cloak then your army is soooo much weaker. i think everyone knows how strong the siege tank can be.
basically, ghost is an alternative to vikings against zerg air... but even so, most people would still prefer to buy mineral heavy vikings and spend gas on tanks.
|
I tried this yesterday, and I have to admit that it is a very fun way to play. Much more active than just massing tanks, allows you to stop muta harrass pretty easily, and grants you good mobility with the medivacs. And nuke harrass.
I was cloacking my ghosts and sniping the lonely Overseer in every fight so he would just focus onto the MM ball, but I found out that fungal growth also reveals your cloacked units. So it turns out to be a very TvP-like matchup, you have to emp the infestors before they FG you, but save enough energy to snipe the overseers, mutas and banelings, and eventually ultras as well.
I'm sure this will develop further into standard TvZ play.
|
Im pretty sure you can have much more banelings, than ghost are able to snipe out
|
Yep, there should be about 6 banelings/ghost... how do you snipe that? :/
|
i personally just build alot of banelings and put them into an extra control group so i can just move them into the ghosts in the fight. there is no way they all die to snipes.
|
Tanks and Ghosts are very different units for very different purposes... Tanks of course pound through ground armies of all kinds, however, do not forgot the immobility of tanks and how slow they are, the time they take to set up, the self splash damage... the inability to hit air. Ghosts to me are treated like a mixture of a DT+high templar. This is a high priority unit, if you are very quick with sniping and you build up a nice critical amount of ghost throughout your marauder army you will melt zerg forces. I am talking ALL zerg forces - Ultras, Banes, Broodlords, Infestors get slaughtered along with zlings, hydra, roach etc...
First of all a Ghost instantly neutralizes all Mutalisk, snipe is the bane of them and even 3-4 ghost with near full energy will massacre 10+ mutas with ease. If gone unnoticed a couple of cloaked ghost can sneak into expansions and proceed to "DT" rape workers. (Ghost 2 shot workers, 1 shot with snipe, if you have 2 ghost that is 1 ghost per shot, and you will get plenty of kills with 2 ghosts undetected for even 5-10 seconds, you will crush their economy. They also inflict fear into the opponent because of nukes and EMPing infestors. The threat of a nuke, especially after the first has been used and they know you have them, is great. They will usually mass up 3-4 overseers, therefore wasting much needed gas for an army. Last but not least, as I said before, snipe is simply amazing. I have gotten really really fast at sniping (I am high diamond BTW this is usually what I go in TvZ if not mech) and once you hit late game with an upgraded marauder ghost army, it is very difficult for Z to stop, especially if you throw in medivacs. Ultralisk can easily be shot down to halfish HP before they even reach you because of snipe, if you get good with shift+queuing snipes you can drop half their army at the time of intiation, picking off vital hydras, infestors, broodlords ridiculously fast.
I think this is a unit that people need to practice with more, they are much better than in SC1 in a million ways, they even have amazing damage and tanking capabilities. Try them out please, give them a chance and work on a defined build order trying to incorporate them effectively.
|
I still find the hellion harass to nuke rush pretty hilarious.
Besides that though, Ive found ghosts are great early deterrents to mutalisks. You can get ghosts out quicker than vikings and thors, and they can later be used for nuke/harass when the zerg gets too many expos. Apparently theyre good against ultras too, but ive never gotten to that point.
What can the zerg do vs them? FG can hold em in place for lings/baneling. Very theoretically and if your APM and awareness is on point, maybe NP to self EMP? I always thought that roaches would be a good counter, since it takes 4 snipes per roach, but after watching the replay im not so sure about that since its obviously so easy to couple the ghosts with marauders.
|
I would love to see some more TvZ games with ghosts used. Spent a few hours trying to incorporate them into my play with some success (tried Jinro's nitro reapers into bunkered/blocked FE build).
Hellions seem pretty important as well to combat speedlings / hydra and block your ball from ultras. They also roast infestors in numbers, although with EMP they really shouldn't be a problem.
Anyway, I am thinking a 3/2/1/1/1 ratio of marauders / marines / ghosts / hellions / medivacs. Should be enough gas to upgrade everything important too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
