I was just blown away by what Zerg can do ... with map control, scouting, flanking, feints, draws, sacrificial play, etc. it's quite amazing how much tactics top Zerg play can involve.
Key takeaways I got: 1) Overlords are for scouting -- keep tabs on his naturals, and during mid game sac an overlord about every minute to keep tabs on his unit composition and know exactly when he starts his tank push.
2) Constant aggression is necessary -- because Terran's mid-game tank push is so deadly, you need to delay that push as long as possible before he gets critical mass tanks. Early roach and speedling to counter fast hellion (note no spine crawlers), then baneling bust. If he's going mass reaper, you can go baneling bust before roaches.
3) Countering the mid-game tank push with baneling drops, flanks, feints, draws and overlord sac'ing -- there are so many things to discuss here. First, it's so important to take control of wide open spaces -- typically the center of the map. Because you'll know exactly when he moves out, and potentially overwhelm him before he can set up position in the mid. If you need more time, keep feinting and drawing back, force him to siege/resiege. If you can, split your army into 3 groups -- roaches on one side, zerglings on the other side, and 8 banelings in 2 overlords for the baneling bomb drop. The target is to eliminate the tier-1/hellion army first so that your speedlings can quickly and efficiently destroy the tank army. Lead roaches in first to draw tank fire, then speedlings, all while overlords are running in to absorb marine fire and drop banelings -- you should make quick work of the marines. He may be able to finish the rest of your army with his leftover tanks, but your second production cycle of all lings shoudl clean him up no problem. At this point, you've most likely won as it'll take too long for him to rebuild a sizeable enough tank push, and your speedlings will rape any tier-1 army he can muster up.
4) Mineral line harass with baneling bomb drops -- with overlord positioning, you should be able to keep an eye on your opponent's naturals and see how well defended they are. And with an overlord sac every minute or so, you'll know where his army is positined too. Take 4-8 banelings in 3 overlords, and go to town.
Anyone else want to share some notes they found were awesome in the Sen games he streamed?
(btw, please no whining about imbalances here, or which race takes more skill, etc....)
And all those points is i think pretty standard high level zerg play? if there wasn't anything i missed.
I watch a ton of high level zerg replays and baneling drops are pretty rare. Researching ventral sacs is fairly uncommon itself. Most high level zerg use spine crawlers and queens to defend their expansion against hellions. It is less frequent that a zerg uses pure units for defense early on.
On July 31 2010 03:15 Snowfield wrote: Didn't watch his stream, don't know who this is, please provide a link
And all those points is i think pretty standard high level zerg play? if there wasn't anything i missed.
Id like teh livestream links though so i could check out the VODs
Sen is a contender for being the best player in the world. It's a shame he wasn't invited to KotB (not to take anything from the winner of that tourney though.) I'm blown away every time I see Sen play.
Before facing Sen TLO claimed that his TvZ was unstoppable. Sen took him down quite a few notches.
On July 31 2010 03:11 Happy.fairytail wrote: Wow, anyone else just watch his stream?
I was just blown away by what Zerg can do ... with map control, scouting, flanking, feints, draws, sacrificial play, etc. it's quite amazing how much tactics top Zerg play can involve.
Key takeaways I got: 1) Overlords are for scouting -- keep tabs on his naturals, and during mid game sac an overlord about every minute to keep tabs on his unit composition and know exactly when he starts his tank push.
2) Constant aggression is necessary -- because Terran's mid-game tank push is so deadly, you need to delay that push as long as possible before he gets critical mass tanks. Early roach and speedling to counter fast hellion (note no spine crawlers), then baneling bust. If he's going mass reaper, you can go baneling bust before roaches.
3) Countering the mid-game tank push with baneling drops, flanks, feints, draws and overlord sac'ing -- there are so many things to discuss here. First, it's so important to take control of wide open spaces -- typically the center of the map. Because you'll know exactly when he moves out, and potentially overwhelm him before he can set up position in the mid. If you need more time, keep feinting and drawing back, force him to siege/resiege. If you can, split your army into 3 groups -- roaches on one side, zerglings on the other side, and 8 banelings in 2 overlords for the baneling bomb drop. The target is to eliminate the tier-1/hellion army first so that your speedlings can quickly and efficiently destroy the tank army. Lead roaches in first to draw tank fire, then speedlings, all while overlords are running in to absorb marine fire and drop banelings -- you should make quick work of the marines. He may be able to finish the rest of your army with his leftover tanks, but your second production cycle of all lings shoudl clean him up no problem. At this point, you've most likely won as it'll take too long for him to rebuild a sizeable enough tank push, and your speedlings will rape any tier-1 army he can muster up.
4) Mineral line harass with baneling bomb drops -- with overlord positioning, you should be able to keep an eye on your opponent's naturals and see how well defended they are. And with an overlord sac every minute or so, you'll know where his army is positined too. Take 4-8 banelings in 3 overlords, and go to town.
Anyone else want to share some notes they found were awesome in the Sen games he streamed?
(btw, please no whining about imbalances here, or which race takes more skill, etc....)
You should watch Cool's replays too. I think he was the first to use the roach/speedling/banelings combination to rape terran mech when every1 said it was OP vs zerg.
You should watch Cool's replays too. I think he was the first to use the roach/speedling/banelings combination to rape terran mech when every1 said it was OP vs zerg.
links or livestream link plz? =)
Man, I'm still so pumped after watching Sen's games. They were so nail-bitingly tense, I'm still shaking. ZvT is so intense because of all the timing attacks that Zerg is doing everything he can to fend off or delay, so that he can launch the game ending counterattack. From the TvZ point of view, it's more like this terrible sense of dread growing in the pit of your stomach that if you don't attack soon, you automatically lose to Zerg macro lol =P Dang, so stressful!
On July 31 2010 03:15 Snowfield wrote: Didn't watch his stream, don't know who this is, please provide a link
And all those points is i think pretty standard high level zerg play? if there wasn't anything i missed.
Id like teh livestream links though so i could check out the VODs
Sen is a contender for being the best player in the world. It's a shame he wasn't invited to KotB (not to take anything from the winner of that tourney though.) I'm blown away every time I see Sen play.
Before facing Sen TLO claimed that his TvZ was unstoppable. Sen took him down quite a few notches.
I believe in IdrA's interview he said Sen was invited but couldn't make it. I love watching Sen play. He has such a fluid gameplay.
The thing that kind of bothered me though was that Sen had to have amazing control. Super stellar control. Flanking, feinting, overlord sac'ing, baneling dropping all to counter terrans 1a2a siege play. Then, the terran's push was still very nearly successful.
I did watch his stream during these games and as a zerg player I was amazed! The fact that he goes lair only to get the overlord upgrades to keep the pressure up is something I would never have thought to do on my own.
Sen's scouting is ALWAYS amazing and all zergs should check his positioning out for all the maps since they are in such key locations.
A final note, I do sack overlords frequently to absord damage and to scout/feint the oppenent. A tactic that is tricky to use but is very effective.. As Sen proved!
You should watch Cool's replays too. I think he was the first to use the roach/speedling/banelings combination to rape terran mech when every1 said it was OP vs zerg.
links or livestream link plz? =)
Man, I'm still so pumped after watching Sen's games. They were so nail-bitingly tense, I'm still shaking. ZvT is so intense because of all the timing attacks that Zerg is doing everything he can to fend off or delay, so that he can launch the game ending counterattack. From the TvZ point of view, it's more like this terrible sense of dread growing in the pit of your stomach that if you don't attack soon, you automatically lose to Zerg macro lol =P Dang, so stressful!
search 17173.com VODs. Watch his series versus check
Sen went roachling into baneling bust? That sounds like an allin.
How often or what times does Sen stream? Honestly I've had his stream bookmarked for like 2 months now (different url from beta) and It's always been offline
Before facing Sen TLO claimed that his TvZ was unstoppable. Sen took him down quite a few notches.
I think this is wrong TLO has been claiming strength in his ZvT not his TvZ.
No, for quite some time TLO had claimed to never have lost to Zerg as Terran. Day9 boasted about it with him for a while as well. If you recall TLO went from being pure Random to Random vs Terran, Terran vs Zerg and Zerg vs Protoss. He had a roughly equal win ratio as anything vs Terran, but lost a large amount of PvZ, ZvZ, TvP and PvP. I think he's sense gone to almost exclusively Terran, but I could be wrong. I haven't seen him as anything except Terran in quite some time.
On topic... I like Sen. Very solid player with a good game sense.
On July 31 2010 03:45 Faulteh wrote: I have to agree. The games were amazing.
The thing that kind of bothered me though was that Sen had to have amazing control. Super stellar control. Flanking, feinting, overlord sac'ing, baneling dropping all to counter terrans 1a2a siege play. Then, the terran's push was still very nearly successful.
Something seems a bit wrong about that.
This kind of reasoning kills me- and its all i read on the forums. The tanks are 1a 2a because they cant move around like crazy cracked up insects. You cant flank with tanks (unless your like rediculously baller). T is all about positioning with mech, and the micro and control happens during harasses and the like. Hellion harass, reaper harass, drop harrass (thors hellions or just bio), all require excellent control or you just get rolled over.
ON TOPIC: Sen is a total baller- and those baneling drops on the min lines make me fear for my future. Honestly i have no idea how to deal with large #s of banelings mid-lategame.
On July 31 2010 03:15 Snowfield wrote: Didn't watch his stream, don't know who this is, please provide a link
And all those points is i think pretty standard high level zerg play? if there wasn't anything i missed.
Id like teh livestream links though so i could check out the VODs
Sen is a contender for being the best player in the world. It's a shame he wasn't invited to KotB (not to take anything from the winner of that tourney though.) I'm blown away every time I see Sen play.
Before facing Sen TLO claimed that his TvZ was unstoppable. Sen took him down quite a few notches.
Completely false. Why do people make stuff up?
TLO said that he hadn't lost yet with his TvZ build on lost temple. He never claimed unstoppable TvZ.
Sen is arguably the smartest and most skilled sc2 player in the world or at least during the beta. It's not just a few tactics that wins him the games its the timing and execution of them. 99% of zergs would get roflstomped if they tried to play as agressive as sen vs mech
On July 31 2010 06:24 Scruff wrote: Sen is my idol sc2 Zerg player! In the Asia showcup day9 did say that TLO claimed that his TvZ was unstoppable and then he just got stomped by Sen.
But why is Sen in platinum leauge? Is there no diamond leauge in.. whatever server he plays in?
He lost a placement match and got placed in gold maybe? And he only have some 35 games played I think? Could mean system hasn't gotten him advanced yet?
Maybe thats why some of his games seem so odd. His opponents doesn't feel like top of diamond exactly..
edit: yeah that is correct. On jul 30 he was in gold league rank 37.
To be fair I dont know how much you would learn watching a pro spanking up gold players
But it will be interesting to watch when he starts facing top diamond players
On July 31 2010 06:24 Scruff wrote: Sen is my idol sc2 Zerg player! In the Asia showcup day9 did say that TLO claimed that his TvZ was unstoppable and then he just got stomped by Sen.
But why is Sen in platinum leauge? Is there no diamond leauge in.. whatever server he plays in?
He lost a placement match and got placed in gold maybe? And he only have some 35 games played I think? Could mean system hasn't gotten him advanced yet?
Maybe thats why some of his games seem so odd. His opponents doesn't feel like top of diamond exactly..
edit: yeah that is correct. On jul 30 he was in gold league rank 37.
To be fair I dont know how much you would learn watching a pro spanking up gold players
But it will be interesting to watch when he starts facing top diamond players
You can't get into diamond if blizzard is having a bad day. It can take like 50+ games to get in sometimes.
On July 31 2010 06:24 Scruff wrote: Sen is my idol sc2 Zerg player! In the Asia showcup day9 did say that TLO claimed that his TvZ was unstoppable and then he just got stomped by Sen.
But why is Sen in platinum leauge? Is there no diamond leauge in.. whatever server he plays in?
He lost a placement match and got placed in gold maybe? And he only have some 35 games played I think? Could mean system hasn't gotten him advanced yet?
Maybe thats why some of his games seem so odd. His opponents doesn't feel like top of diamond exactly..
edit: yeah that is correct. On jul 30 he was in gold league rank 37.
To be fair I dont know how much you would learn watching a pro spanking up gold players
But it will be interesting to watch when he starts facing top diamond players
You can't get into diamond if blizzard is having a bad day. It can take like 50+ games to get in sometimes.
Yeah I know. My point is just that the stream from 30 jul is against gold/plat players.
On July 31 2010 06:31 Last Romantic wrote: SEn is essentially my favorite foreign Zerg player (from SC1). Taiwanese pride.
Truth.
TLO saying he's never lost is pretty much the same thing as saying he's unstoppable yea? Either way, Sen's definitely in contention for best Zerg in SC2 as of right now.
On July 31 2010 07:30 Izzachar wrote: lol sen got denied expo by a probe on DO so hes like ok Im putting my hatch outside your main and make spiens and lings
didnt work though. =)
Just watched that one. That game was amazing... I feel like he could have won if he had gotten some banelings, especially when he lured the toss army away with a small group of lings and tried to backstab but ran into the double pylon wall at the top of the ramp.
Is it just me or does anyone else notice and appreciate the fact that sen stays in games after the other player leaves just to finish scouting/another round of larva vomiting/queue more overlords or units? It's like he wants to complete his thought or something xD
On July 31 2010 03:27 Ocedic wrote: Sen is a contender for being the best player in the world. It's a shame he wasn't invited to KotB (not to take anything from the winner of that tourney though.) I'm blown away every time I see Sen play.
Before facing Sen TLO claimed that his TvZ was unstoppable. Sen took him down quite a few notches.
idrA in his Kotb interview said that Sen was invited but could not play.
Sen is my hero for finally showing me a use for roaches, goddamn. And it wasn't in some abhorrent roach/hydra comp either - he beat colo + gateway off hatchery tech!
On July 31 2010 08:10 MythicalMage wrote: Sen's play is really great. The only zerg that I've seen be that aggressive, and correct me if there's someone I'm forgetting, is Dimaga.
Yeah but sadly all the games I've seen of Dimaga he either lost or won through a baneling bust all-in. Sen's play seems more stable than that.
People said the zerg rush from BW is dead in SC2, but I have never seen a zerg rush in BW as scary as a Sen Roachling rush in this game!
On July 31 2010 08:10 MythicalMage wrote: Sen's play is really great. The only zerg that I've seen be that aggressive, and correct me if there's someone I'm forgetting, is Dimaga.
Yeah but sadly all the games I've seen of Dimaga he either lost or won through a baneling bust all-in. Sen's play seems more stable than that.
People said the zerg rush from BW is dead in SC2, but I have never seen a zerg rush in BW as scary as a Sen Roachling rush in this game!
Watch Dimaga Vs WhiteRa on Blistering Sands. He opens up with a lot of aggression, then expands twice, and eventually has enough stuff to break WhiteRa's front.
On July 31 2010 03:45 Faulteh wrote: I have to agree. The games were amazing.
The thing that kind of bothered me though was that Sen had to have amazing control. Super stellar control. Flanking, feinting, overlord sac'ing, baneling dropping all to counter terrans 1a2a siege play. Then, the terran's push was still very nearly successful.
Something seems a bit wrong about that.
+1
I think Idra still has the best understanding of all the Zerg matchups of all the Zerg players on the scene at this point in time (foreigner-wise).
On July 31 2010 03:45 Faulteh wrote: I have to agree. The games were amazing.
The thing that kind of bothered me though was that Sen had to have amazing control. Super stellar control. Flanking, feinting, overlord sac'ing, baneling dropping all to counter terrans 1a2a siege play. Then, the terran's push was still very nearly successful.
Something seems a bit wrong about that.
+1
I think Idra still has the best understanding of all the Zerg matchups of all the Zerg players on the scene at this point in time (foreigner-wise).
Sen is a foreigner too. And if you think mech is 1a2a, you haven't played mech. It's ALL about positioning and protecting your units with your tanks and so on. It's slow, so it doesn't take too much in the way of fast micro, but position is everything in mech.
Any tip on how to view the stream from germany ? I get kicked by justin.tv every minute because of the country stream user limitation or some BS :/ I tried proxies and Ultrasurf, both didnt work I really really liked the stream before it got so famous that u got kicked here every minute.
On July 31 2010 07:30 Izzachar wrote: lol sen got denied expo by a probe on DO so hes like ok Im putting my hatch outside your main and make spiens and lings
didnt work though. =)
Just watched that one. That game was amazing... I feel like he could have won if he had gotten some banelings, especially when he lured the toss army away with a small group of lings and tried to backstab but ran into the double pylon wall at the top of the ramp.
Yeah I know crazy!. Hatch lured out the units and he could get in early as well before the dual pylon. A few more lings in there, a few banes or smth could have tipped the game in his favor. Would be crazy if he'd won like that but it was actually kinda close
On July 31 2010 14:48 HardcoreBilly wrote: If you guys think Sen is God's magnum opus now, then wait til you see Jaedong, Calm, Zero play...And that's just Zerg.
Thing is, Sen's god now. When those guys start playing, Sen will be even better.
On July 31 2010 06:31 Last Romantic wrote: SEn is essentially my favorite foreign Zerg player (from SC1). Taiwanese pride.
Truth.
TLO saying he's never lost is pretty much the same thing as saying he's unstoppable yea? Either way, Sen's definitely in contention for best Zerg in SC2 as of right now.
priceless.
I guess there is lesson to be learned, though. on't snap on someone that misquoted someone else cuz someone else will then misquote and make fun of you.
edit: watching sen's stream right now. it's offline, but am finally getting to watch a zerg that can beat aggressive terrans.
On July 31 2010 14:48 HardcoreBilly wrote: If you guys think Sen is God's magnum opus now, then wait til you see Jaedong, Calm, Zero play...And that's just Zerg.
On July 31 2010 23:46 Philosophy wrote: People who go nuts over Sen should definately check out ogs.Cool, as he is the #1 korean player and won the 17173 world cup.
On July 31 2010 03:45 Faulteh wrote: I have to agree. The games were amazing.
The thing that kind of bothered me though was that Sen had to have amazing control. Super stellar control. Flanking, feinting, overlord sac'ing, baneling dropping all to counter terrans 1a2a siege play. Then, the terran's push was still very nearly successful.
Something seems a bit wrong about that.
+1
ps - people saying that positioning is key for the 1a2a army... dont kid yourself, its not that hard in sc2. Positioning of ur 1a2a is infinitely easier than defeating your 1a2a.
On July 31 2010 23:46 Philosophy wrote: People who go nuts over Sen should definately check out ogs.Cool, as he is the #1 korean player and won the 17173 world cup.
On July 31 2010 03:45 Faulteh wrote: I have to agree. The games were amazing.
The thing that kind of bothered me though was that Sen had to have amazing control. Super stellar control. Flanking, feinting, overlord sac'ing, baneling dropping all to counter terrans 1a2a siege play. Then, the terran's push was still very nearly successful.
Something seems a bit wrong about that.
+1
ps - people saying that positioning is key for the 1a2a army... dont kid yourself, its not that hard in sc2. Positioning of ur 1a2a is infinitely easier than defeating your 1a2a.
+1 with all of it. All i do is contain the Meching terran with mutas and poke into his defense and shit.
On July 31 2010 03:45 Faulteh wrote: I have to agree. The games were amazing.
The thing that kind of bothered me though was that Sen had to have amazing control. Super stellar control. Flanking, feinting, overlord sac'ing, baneling dropping all to counter terrans 1a2a siege play. Then, the terran's push was still very nearly successful.
Something seems a bit wrong about that.
+1
ps - people saying that positioning is key for the 1a2a army... dont kid yourself, its not that hard in sc2. Positioning of ur 1a2a is infinitely easier than defeating your 1a2a.
+1 with all of it. All i do is contain the Meching terran with mutas and poke into his defense and shit.
This is all and good for the midgame, you just have to be careful to transition into some tier 3 (or be good at using infestors or drops) otherwise you'll get rolled when he reaches critical mass.
For people wondering why Sen is in Platinum, I won 5-0 and still in Platinum on SEA server. I think its either that 5-0 is not gurantee diamond or there is no Diamond in ASIA now
Watching the match you guys were talking about rightnow. It turned out that Sen's opponent is a mainland Chinese player from a share account at 8da- a well known chinese SC site. So his opponent is good, maybe even be some chinese pro!
+1 with all of it. All i do is contain the Meching terran with mutas and poke into his defense and shit.
This is all and good for the midgame, you just have to be careful to transition into some tier 3 (or be good at using infestors or drops) otherwise you'll get rolled when he reaches critical mass.
the muta build build vs mech came from Sen too. after they buffed the crap out of thor AA, everyone stopped going muta for a bit. Sen brought it back and was featured by Day9 for his interesting strat of using muta vs terran again.
The idea isn't to transition to t3, or to win with muta. The whole point is to 1 base tech straight to muta, hide the spire with OL creep, and then harass with them and expand. While harassing he'd build his roach warren and evo chambers. He was just trying to contain and force them to make more thor/marine and less tank/marauder so he could burrow move roach to victory.
+1 with all of it. All i do is contain the Meching terran with mutas and poke into his defense and shit.
This is all and good for the midgame, you just have to be careful to transition into some tier 3 (or be good at using infestors or drops) otherwise you'll get rolled when he reaches critical mass.
the muta build build vs mech came from Sen too. after they buffed the crap out of thor AA, everyone stopped going muta for a bit. Sen brought it back and was featured by Day9 for his interesting strat of using muta vs terran again.
The idea isn't to transition to t3, or to win with muta. The whole point is to 1 base tech straight to muta, hide the spire with OL creep, and then harass with them and expand. While harassing he'd build his roach warren and evo chambers. He was just trying to contain and force them to make more thor/marine and less tank/marauder so he could burrow move roach to victory.
Yea, but I still feel like this kind of just works because its Sen doing it. Usually when I do mutas, I hid the spire but do it off of 2 bases. It works to get the opponent to go thor and expand like you said, but I've had trouble using burrowed roaches vs thors. Normally I go for ultra drops and baneling drops on the tank line and then sprint in with roaches. I guess the burrowed roaches are just Sen's style, and hes good with that.
+1 with all of it. All i do is contain the Meching terran with mutas and poke into his defense and shit.
This is all and good for the midgame, you just have to be careful to transition into some tier 3 (or be good at using infestors or drops) otherwise you'll get rolled when he reaches critical mass.
the muta build build vs mech came from Sen too. after they buffed the crap out of thor AA, everyone stopped going muta for a bit. Sen brought it back and was featured by Day9 for his interesting strat of using muta vs terran again.
The idea isn't to transition to t3, or to win with muta. The whole point is to 1 base tech straight to muta, hide the spire with OL creep, and then harass with them and expand. While harassing he'd build his roach warren and evo chambers. He was just trying to contain and force them to make more thor/marine and less tank/marauder so he could burrow move roach to victory.
Yea, but I still feel like this kind of just works because its Sen doing it. Usually when I do mutas, I hid the spire but do it off of 2 bases. It works to get the opponent to go thor and expand like you said, but I've had trouble using burrowed roaches vs thors. Normally I go for ultra drops and baneling drops on the tank line and then sprint in with roaches. I guess the burrowed roaches are just Sen's style, and hes good with that.
Oh, and i also love the muta opening because it gives you control of the air. This stops all sorts of overlord sniping/banshee bs/annoying drops and just generally makes the game easier. If he starts going vikings to try and take air control back, you've basically already won.
On July 31 2010 23:46 Philosophy wrote: People who go nuts over Sen should definately check out ogs.Cool, as he is the #1 korean player and won the 17173 world cup.
I love muta's versus terrans. Even if they have a lot of marines or thors, mutas can still do damage and def contain (especially when you have you mutas leave at the back of their base). Making them build turrets and more thor centric army is good. I often FE Mutaling play and tech to hydra/ling/ultra for late game.
On July 31 2010 03:15 Snowfield wrote: Didn't watch his stream, don't know who this is, please provide a link
And all those points is i think pretty standard high level zerg play? if there wasn't anything i missed.
Id like teh livestream links though so i could check out the VODs
Sen is a contender for being the best player in the world. It's a shame he wasn't invited to KotB (not to take anything from the winner of that tourney though.) I'm blown away every time I see Sen play.
Before facing Sen TLO claimed that his TvZ was unstoppable. Sen took him down quite a few notches.
On July 31 2010 23:46 Philosophy wrote: People who go nuts over Sen should definately check out ogs.Cool, as he is the #1 korean player and won the 17173 world cup.
On July 31 2010 23:46 Philosophy wrote: People who go nuts over Sen should definately check out ogs.Cool, as he is the #1 korean player and won the 17173 world cup.
mutas are amazing vs terran . you NEED map control if you want to get a third, or even a natural if you go 1 hatch muta which i really like personally. my zvt playstyle is contain with mutas on 1base or 2, macro mode and adapt to what they're going since you have amazing vision and map control with mutas. if they go thor marine juts make a ton of lings/roaches/infestors, if they go mech then just make a ton of roaches. the main point here is that during the period where you have 5-10 mutas out the terran can't leave his base until he gets 6-7 turrets up or 3-4 thors. thats when you have time to get an army and another expansion
i honestly don't think zvt is worse then 40-60, might be just becaus ef low diamond but once you get timings macro and map control down it really isn't that bad. mech isn't particularly 1a2a, but it feels like that when 5 siege tanks roll out to your base when you have 10 roaches and 20 lings. that's just because your timings and feel for the matchup aren't good enough though.
On July 31 2010 03:45 Faulteh wrote: I have to agree. The games were amazing.
The thing that kind of bothered me though was that Sen had to have amazing control. Super stellar control. Flanking, feinting, overlord sac'ing, baneling dropping all to counter terrans 1a2a siege play. Then, the terran's push was still very nearly successful.
Something seems a bit wrong about that.
Then consider that none of us are as good as Sen. So it is broken for 99.9% of people. :|
Well it's not hard to be annoyed at mech when a 70 pop army with 6 siege tanks takes out a 140 pop Zerg army at a choke. I'm not saying it's imbalanced, it's just when paper meats scissors peoples first reaction is to get annoyed, not to think of rock.
On August 01 2010 20:38 AndyJay wrote: Well it's not hard to be annoyed at mech when a 70 pop army with 6 siege tanks takes out a 140 pop Zerg army at a choke. I'm not saying it's imbalanced, it's just when paper meats scissors peoples first reaction is to get annoyed, not to think of rock.
Ish. Thing is, it's not that simple, really. There's no "trick" to winning vs mech, at least not one we know. Then again, the game is new, and I highly doubt most of the people complaining about mech, have seen true mech.
Good terrans however will use offensive towers and save energy for 2-3 scans before pushing or if needed ravens. While i think they work vs mediocre Terrans(TLO proved they worked there in few replays) they are a huge gas investment and tend not to work very well vs better terrans.
Overlord drops are much better and also much more cost efficient. Dropping also allows to exploit the slow moving terran force with offensive drops. I think its simply way way better and infestors are just good if terrans tend to add too many marines. Too bad roaches were nerfed they used to be such a good counter to marines :x
EPT
on't snap on someone that misquoted someone else cuz someone else will then misquote and make fun of you.
