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On July 24 2010 15:58 Kantutan wrote:
It extends far into the late-game though. If your first worker was made .5 seconds earlier, then every worker after that will be made faster as well, meaning they got in that much more mining time. Since constant worker production often doesn't stop until at least 15 food, it means you would have over 8 workers mining sooner rather than the 6 mining sooner using the method of sending your workers first.
I believe this argument is fallacious.
Let's say we have one nexus start making workers nonstop.
We have a second nexus making workers nonstop start exactly one second after the first one.
The first nexus won't pull extremely far ahead of the second nexus - instead the first nexus will only be one second ahead in minerals of the second one.
Since we're assuming that the queue worker -> send workers procedure takes about a half second, the other way will only be a half second ahead of this method. That half second of having that extra worker results in a ~1/2 mineral gain while sending workers first results in 3 extra minerals.
There may be other factors which play into the whole build worker / send workers first debate, but your argument is not one of them. Most of them have to do with human reaction time, splitting, etc.
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And speaking of the F1 strategy: Do any pros currently use it? I mean F1 right click min patch, repeat 5 more times. It seems to be able to be done fast on my first try, and with practice I wonder if it is better than the split.
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If your first pylon delays probe production, you should send workers --> more early cash --> faster pylon --> more eventual workers.
If your first pylon does not delay probe production, you should build a probe first, because that slight extra probe time will continue throughout the game and add up.
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I build a probe first then send them all to mine. Then by the time it is possible to build another one i already have almost exactly 50 minerals. There is no delay. That means the second one is also faster. And third and so on.
If you send workers first, you'll fall behind in building probes but have a 15-20 (don't know exactly) more minerals at the start. Which is nothing compared to the hundreds of more minerals collected by more probes over the game.
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@ Severedevil -- I don't think it's possible to make probe, send, and not have a delay. Unless you're playing sloppy to begin with, there will always be a delay because 10 probes will be out before pylon is done.
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On July 24 2010 16:04 FC.Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 15:58 Kantutan wrote:
It extends far into the late-game though. If your first worker was made .5 seconds earlier, then every worker after that will be made faster as well, meaning they got in that much more mining time. Since constant worker production often doesn't stop until at least 15 food, it means you would have over 8 workers mining sooner rather than the 6 mining sooner using the method of sending your workers first. I believe this argument is fallacious. Let's say we have one nexus start making workers nonstop. We have a second nexus making workers nonstop start exactly one second after the first one. The first nexus won't pull extremely far ahead of the second nexus - instead the first nexus will only be one second ahead in minerals of the second one. Since we're assuming that the queue worker -> send workers procedure takes about a half second, the other way will only be a half second ahead of this method. That half second of having that extra worker results in a ~1/2 mineral gain while sending workers first results in 3 extra minerals. There may be other factors which play into the whole build worker / send workers first debate, but your argument is not one of them. Most of them have to do with human reaction time, splitting, etc.
Upon further thought, I agree. The nexuses will always be equal in resources, just one ahead of the other by .5 seconds. Good thought.
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@ EatCrow -- we've established that staying one worker ahead is not cumulative gain, therefore, if both players built the same amount of probes continuously, the one who was ahead in probe count wouldn't ever be more than 5 mins ahead. I.E. I'm bringing in 7 probes, you're bringing in 8. I'm bringing in 8 probes, you're bringing in 9. See, you only ever stay 5 mins ahead, but my whole batch of probes will hit my nexus each time before yours, so I'll have acess to mins sooner.
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No suggestion on the F1 strategy? Have any pros been seen to use it?
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What is it with everyone saying that building that probe earlier will snowball into this huge advantage later in the game? That's not how it works at all.
Income growth is completely linear. If you start probe production a half second later, it will still grow linearly just a tiny bit later than the first graph. But the initial minerals you get from sending the workers first lift the graph higher than the first to make up for it.
Edit: I made a graph for those of you who aren't so mathematically inclined. Enjoy.
![[image loading]](http://i28.tinypic.com/307omqf.png)
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Yeah, nice argument FC.
I'll still build a worker first, because click + s / click + e /click + s + d is easier to do than select drag + click on patch. So long as I get my 50 mins before the first worker finishes, I'm happy.
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On July 24 2010 16:14 CitanZero wrote:
No suggestion on the F1 strategy? Have any pros been seen to use it?
WhiteRa uses F1, doesn't he?
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On July 24 2010 16:15 Kantutan wrote:
Yeah, nice argument FC.
I'll still build a worker first, because click + s / click + e /click + s + d is easier to do than select drag + click on patch. So long as I get my 50 mins before the first worker finishes, I'm happy.
The funny thing is I totally agree - I don't care about this whole thing at all in game. I make my worker, send all of my workers to a random patch, don't split, and that's that.
It's just that on the forums, I have to point out these sorts of things.
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WhiteRa does? I'll have to check it out. Does he do F1 6 times extremely fast? Or some combination of sending?
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Oh and thanks for the graphs FC
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On July 24 2010 16:17 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 16:14 CitanZero wrote:
No suggestion on the F1 strategy? Have any pros been seen to use it? WhiteRa uses F1, doesn't he?
I believe it was White-Ra who does the triple split? Select two workers at a time and send them off. IMO it's not worth the micro and risk of mis-clicking which is bound to happen occasionally.
On July 24 2010 16:22 FC.Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 16:15 Kantutan wrote:
Yeah, nice argument FC.
I'll still build a worker first, because click + s / click + e /click + s + d is easier to do than select drag + click on patch. So long as I get my 50 mins before the first worker finishes, I'm happy. The funny thing is I totally agree - I don't care about this whole thing at all in game. I make my worker, send all of my workers to a random patch, don't split, and that's that. It's just that on the forums, I have to point out these sorts of things.
Yeah I know, I have no shame in being bested in a logical argument  The sooner you learn, the better.
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White-Ra does the oddest thing. In one of the King of the Beta games, it was:
Select 2 workers, send them to mineral patches.
Build worker
Select 2 workers, send them to mineral patches.
Select 2 workers, send them to mineral patches. Split this group 1-1 between two different patches.
I'm pretty sure that's not even close to optimized, but these things don't determine games and it's White-Ra's signature split. So whatever
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On July 24 2010 16:25 Kantutan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 16:17 iEchoic wrote:On July 24 2010 16:14 CitanZero wrote:
No suggestion on the F1 strategy? Have any pros been seen to use it? WhiteRa uses F1, doesn't he? I believe it was White-Ra who does the triple split? Select two workers at a time and send them off. IMO it's not worth the micro and risk of mis-clicking which is bound to happen occasionally.
I thought he does the triple split by going f1 click f1 click very fast to select two scvs. Anyone know for sure? That'd be faster, at least.
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Wow that's crazy. I know Day 9 seems to stress that even small edges are significant, but this one seems not to even classify as a small edge.
HERE's ONE I HAVE BEEN WONDERING:
Can anyone, if building their probes and microing perfectly, get a chrono boost off as soon as it hits 25 and have none of the chrono be wasted on idle time waiting on first pylon to finish forming to build probe 11? I can't, and is it optimal if boosting economy to wait until pylon finishes to start chrono boosting so probes will be continuous and no chrono will be on idle time?
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On July 24 2010 16:32 CitanZero wrote:
Wow that's crazy. I know Day 9 seems to stress that even small edges are significant, but this one seems not to even classify as a small edge.
HERE's ONE I HAVE BEEN WONDERING:
Can anyone, if building their probes and microing perfectly, get a chrono boost off as soon as it hits 25 and have none of the chrono be wasted on idle time waiting on first pylon to finish forming to build probe 11? I can't, and is it optimal if boosting economy to wait until pylon finishes to start chrono boosting so probes will be continuous and no chrono will be on idle time?
No. The best you can do is chronoboost when the pylon is about 3/4ths done. And that's only if you throw the pylon down right next to your Nexus and go back to mining.
Edit: That didn't really make sense, so let me clarify. If you're building the pylon by your ramp or at your natural, the time that probe spends not mining makes it such that you can't chrono until the pylon is pretty much done (as the pylon goes down a little later).
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Assuming workers mine 1mineral/second, there is a .5 second delay between building worker/sending and workers are built constantly from one queue.
Sending first will give a 3 mineral advantage at the start however the first worker, and any subsequent worker will be delayed by .5 seconds, so the advantage of sending first will be lost at .5 minerals per worker built. So sending first and building first will be even at 12 supply and building first will be at an advantage after that.
However, Zerg have more than 1 production queue, due to having larvae can use the 3 mineral advantage straight away to build their second drone, third drone, overlord etc. slightly earlier than the person building a drone first. Therefor the person building a drone first will fall slightly behind the person sending drones first as the game progresses.
For Protoss building a probe first is of advantage as long as it does not delay the pylon to the point that probe production has to be stopped for more than .5 seconds longer than the person sending his probes first, as a delay of this length would lose the cumulative benefits of building first, and as a result make sending probes first a better choice.
For Terran (this is the race I'm least familiar with build orders etc.) assuming a 9 supply depot is the optimal build building an SCV first is of advantage as the depot won't be delayed enough to ever lead to being supply blocked therefor the person building an SCV first can constantly produce SCV and as a result gain an advantage over the person sending SCVs first after the 12 supply.
TL;DR
Zerg -> send drones first
Protoss -> depends on much how this affects pylon timing
Terran -> build SCV first
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EPT
