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PvT High templar vs Colossus?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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1 2 Next All
hadoken5
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada519 Posts
July 15 2010 15:24 GMT
#1
When would you go Colossus over High templar? High templar are cheaper and can feedback ghosts. Now early game when I find the Terran will push out with a medium sized MM ball with a couple of ghosts what would counter this better Colossi or High Templar? Colossi take a long time to make and I find the even 3 or 4 of them a long with some zealots sentries and stalkers will succumb to the MM and EMP. And also, what would be better to use a High Templar's energy on? Feedbacking Ghosts or storming the MM. I know I should do both, but which would have a bigger impact on the battle?
ClasH
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany143 Posts
July 15 2010 15:30 GMT
#2
Thanks for opening this thread. Im also asking myself what tech should I take.
What shall i do vs mass marines and what against marudeurs?
Marburg
Piski
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Finland3461 Posts
July 15 2010 15:37 GMT
#3
what would be better to use a High Templar's energy on? Feedbacking Ghosts or storming the MM


Feedback the ghosts and medivacs and then storm the hell out of them.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 15 2010 15:38 GMT
#4
I think the choice of colossi versus high templar is predominantly map-dependent. Both are good at dealing AoE damage, but the colossus is a little bit better at dealing sustained damage. However, with warp in, high templar are much more mobile than colossi. If you're on a map where mobility matters (Metalopolis is the first map that should come to mind), you will want high templar, regardless of whether you're fighting a zerg or a terran. If you're on a map where mobility does not matter as much (Steppes of War, Scrap Station), then colossi are the better choice.
hadoken5
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada519 Posts
July 15 2010 15:42 GMT
#5
Oh ya, and how does storm farw against sieged tanks, if i get a whole storm will they have about half their HP left, more or less?
jamesr12
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1549 Posts
July 15 2010 15:46 GMT
#6
if they got ghost i go collosus, emp is just to scary for me
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306479
Phisk
Profile Joined June 2010
166 Posts
July 15 2010 15:53 GMT
#7
They both have ups and downs.

Templars:
+ Huge damage dealers with large AOE
+ Can be instantly warped in from Warpgates
+ Good at harassing worker lines
+ Archons can be effective against Bio in certain situations
+ EMP is fantastic against PDDs, Ravens, Medivacs and Ghosts
- A few quick EMPs makes your Templars useless
- Damage dealt scales with enemy micro skills
- Needs energy to deal damage, which means wasted storms or EMP can make HTs useless

Colossi:
+ Huge Range and good DPS
+ Cliff walking
+ Consistent DPS
+ Becomes extremely effective when they reach critical mass
- Gets countered VERY hard by Vikings due to their range and scary damage output
- Needs new production buildings that doesn't have the advantages of Warp Gates

I usually find Colossi to be the best choice if the terran player doesn't have Vikings, but I almost always get a TC for Charge anyway so getting a Templar Archives is a fairly small investment, and I like playing Gateway heavy builds. I also love having a good way of sniping PDDs for when I go stalker heavy.
prochobo
Profile Joined May 2010
United States232 Posts
July 15 2010 15:53 GMT
#8
On July 16 2010 00:46 jamesr12 wrote:
if they got ghost i go collosus, emp is just to scary for me


Word. Ghost's EMP is far more deadly than made out to be.

I think it's a little deceiving to describe the EMP as having a radius of 2. Makes it seem like EMP is so small, when in reality a radius of 2 means a diameter of 4, which means the EMP blast almost covers a 4x4 area - more than enough to fit a large portion of your army in so Colossus it is.
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
July 15 2010 15:59 GMT
#9
-Feedbacking ghosts to prevent any emps going off is theoretically the best possible move but it's not always possible due to the number of ghosts and how well they blend in with a bio army. Generally it is just best to try to get as many storms off as possible before you get emp'ed, then feedback ghosts and medivacs with any remaining energy.

-If you're talking early game you don't really need colossi or HT, you should make sure you have a large enough army to defend w/o them as fast-teching can get you in trouble.

-Storm does exactly 80 damage over its full duration, so thus it would take a full HP siege tank, which has 160 HP, down to exactly half life. Generally it is worth it to storm tanks in siege mode if you can catch 2 or more in the storm due to the high costs of tanks.

-Personally I find HT more effective vs bio armies overall, but HT generally need 2 bases to support. You can support colossi easier off of 1 base.

ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 16:07:14
July 15 2010 16:02 GMT
#10
In my opinion both Storm and Collosus are good against MMM. That's completely un-debatable.
But look at the specific moves your opponent has to make to make storm useful:

1. Completely forget ghosts, or fail so hard at micro that he can't spam EMP blindly at your army (seriously EMP is so gay... Words don't even describe how unfair this spell feels to me)
2. Keep all of his marines up front or mixed in with marauders, rather than keeping them seperate

Whereas collosus will always give you reliable damage against the enemy army. Another important thing is that opening robo tech gives you so much more flexibility than opening templar tech.

For example, say you go to scout your opponents wall and you notice 3 or 4 marauders before rines. If you've been teching down templar, you're screwed because you have nothing to deal with the large number of early marauders. If you have robo, you just have to chrono boost an immortal. Similiarly, if you see 3 or 4 rax and reactors, you throw bown your robo support bay.

Also robo allows you to use observers and warp prisms which are some of the most important supporting units you can have.

Edit: Another thing i forgot to mention is how templars are so easily made useless. Whether they're emp'd or run out of energy, they quickly become obsolete and have to be morphed. With your colossi, as long as you remember to micro them, they may even get to continue firing AFTER all of your warp gate units are dead. Unlike templar, they can actually defend themselves and so you can build them up over the course of the first few minutes of the game and once you reach critical mass (three or four collossi) they will rape rediculous amounts of MMM with a good mix of zeal, sentry, and stalkers.
U Gotta Skate.
DreamSailor
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada433 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 16:13:28
July 15 2010 16:12 GMT
#11
I agree with ghermination on this one.

A lot of the time, I choose to go HT against terran and forgo the robo facility. HT's are pretty cheap to pump out yes, but they also require a decent investment (need the archives, psionic storm, and pretty much the amulet to make them worth it), in which case you could've made a robo bay and facility to atleast unlock Colossi (who are very useful "out of the box"), then you can get the range upgrade.

Storms have huge killing potential (especially against marines, and light zerg units), but they are a lot more like burst damage, while colossi are more sustained.

Edit: missed my point.

Im going to start favoring a different mix in my PvT matches, I'm currently favoring a zealot/templar mix, but I think I'm going to go a more stalker/immortal/colossus build.
Where ever you go, there you are.
Prdors
Profile Joined April 2010
United States67 Posts
July 15 2010 16:25 GMT
#12
IMO storm and high templars can go reaaaaally badly if you mismicro your army or have a lapse in your attention. My last game of the night yesterday I wasn't paying attention and had half my army wiped out before I started to use my storms. While I know that it's pretty easy to not completely mess up an entire battle, it does happen occasionally due to fatigue, stress, etc and when it does it's pretty much gg. Because of last night I'll probably stick to collosus for a little while until I get my confidence back up lol.
Go Blue!
omninmo
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
2349 Posts
July 15 2010 16:26 GMT
#13
On July 16 2010 00:38 xDaunt wrote:
I think the choice of colossi versus high templar is predominantly map-dependent. Both are good at dealing AoE damage, but the colossus is a little bit better at dealing sustained damage. However, with warp in, high templar are much more mobile than colossi. If you're on a map where mobility matters (Metalopolis is the first map that should come to mind), you will want high templar, regardless of whether you're fighting a zerg or a terran. If you're on a map where mobility does not matter as much (Steppes of War, Scrap Station), then colossi are the better choice.


well said
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 16:51:07
July 15 2010 16:50 GMT
#14
I get both when I can, because I usually have a robo bay and tc. With one or the other I feel like I am missing out on more AoE damage that I could have had, but if I have 1 colossus to every 3 high templar, and in the course of 1 storm you also get 60 (unupgraded) splash damage of the colossus, which is enough to melt any unit composition in a matter of seconds, esp. T bio (this takes medivacs out of the fight basically) and ling/roach/hydra.

Having both is much more useful than it seems on paper, because if the enemy does not micro his troops, in 4 seconds they all take 140 damage. If he does micro his troops, he creates a "running away" situation where his guys are moving and not firing, while still getting hit by the Colossus's splash.

Edit: Colossus can be micro'ed much better than an HT, and is almost 15-20 times as durable.
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
johngalt90
Profile Joined May 2010
United States357 Posts
July 15 2010 17:09 GMT
#15
Correctly microed ht are way better than collossi. Not to mention twilight council upgrades. Charge is just as important as storm IMO
fuck the haters
EZjijy
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1039 Posts
July 15 2010 17:21 GMT
#16
I have a harder time against HTs than Collossus. Maybe its because people underestimate stimmed marauders and they dont move them back in time. Having a few vikings really hurt the Collossus useability too. With HT's as long as you get a storm off, you get a pretty good return as long as you hit something. Even if you get a group of marines for a split second, they're already down to half health if they tried to juke it with stim. :/
TheMick
Profile Joined April 2010
Great Britain164 Posts
July 15 2010 17:43 GMT
#17
collossus 100% maybe add afew HT later game, i find going HT early game your just asking to die....
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/265104/1/HyperioN/ My SC2 profile!
Saviorr
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden20 Posts
July 15 2010 18:14 GMT
#18
I'v had serious problems with the first MM+Emp push, I'v started to play a little from the dark going for 2 HT's with storm + zealots and trying to get the leg speed up, usually the storm isn't done when the push comes, with some micro 2 buy time (about 20 seconds) the storm is upgraded and you have 2 HT's with 100~~ energy to fight off the first push, and after that its fine.

When there are ghosts in the mix the push comes alot later and you wont have a problem to strom them, i prefer to storm becouse the range of feedback puts your HT's in the army grp where a EMP will probobly land pretty soon...

I'm not sure if this is the best tactic, if i go immortals i die to the ghost push if i go HT's i might die to the regular MM push but my survivability is higher there then vs a ghost push with out hts :/
BOOWOO
Profile Joined March 2010
United States83 Posts
July 15 2010 18:15 GMT
#19
In most situations I prefer the Collosus. I like the huge range, and feel like they compliment the ground army better as pure damage dealers.
NukeTheBunnys
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1004 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 18:18:14
July 15 2010 18:15 GMT
#20
I find it hilarious hearing people complain about EMP in a thread about HT and storm hilarious. Yes there are a bunch differences between the two spells but in the end it comes down to EMP is better vs toss because its really only useful vs toss where as storm is good against all races, and therefore is a bit less powerful.

When I play toss I like to get both if I have the econ for it, I usually go robo first to get observers and imortals if he is getting mech, then TC and archives a little later for charge/HT. I have tried HT first against terrian bio a few times and then proceeded to get rolled by mech after he saw the HT and did a tech switch
When you play the game of drones you win or you die.
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