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Just wondering what people thing about this build and if theres anywhere I can improve here. I've seen working on this with the QXE map. I started with the intent to constantly be making something and not saving larva for anything other than mutas, and as it turns out I'm only saving for like 5 seconds between larva falling off and the spire finishing
Because theres pretty little early defense this is really only viable on a map like Desert Oasis.
10/10 Extracter Trick
11/10 Ovi
Drone to 14
14/18 Gas
Drone
14/18 Pool
Drone
15/18 ovi
Drone to 17/26
Lair and second gas putting you at 16/26
Ling to 18/26
Drone
Drone (rally this guy under an overlord)
Lair Finishes
20/26 Spire
19/26 Queen
I don't see any difference between going Queen (22/26) then spire (21/26). However, I go spire first because I end up waiting a few seconds on the larva to fall off as the spire nears completion so you might as well do the spire a 1/2 second faster (you should have the minerals for both)
Make ovis, drones or lings as needed while the first set of queen larva are cooking. After the first set of larva fall off the spire should have another couple seconds, At this point you should be around 400/400 mins and gas for you 4 mutas. While those 4 are on their way you should build up enough minerals to expand.
So, my major concern that I can't test right now with the beta being down is the lack of early queen and whether this will hurt me in the long run. If anyone has thoughts or feed back please let me know!
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4 lings no queen no speed is too weak an early game for me to consider, even on Desert Oasis.
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Wouldn't it be especially on Desert Oasis where Ts love to go reaper?
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I assumed he wouldn't continue this suicidal plan if he scouted the early tech lab to the rax. But even a late reaper would destroy this build because it has no defense. Most Terrans only build reapers as the first units out of the barracks, and don't add them later, because defense should be up by then, although it is not in this build.
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4 lings till you get your queen out at around 22 im guessing...scary, but if you can pull it off those are gonna be some very early mutas
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You Lair before you even ling? That means his scout will be there the entire time watching all of this unfold and subsequently rush the shit out of you. This build is a loss to any scout.
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Keep in mind those lings are coming out under the same timing as 14gas/13pool in to speedling. I'm simply using the minerals and gas for the lair rather than the speed upgrade and a queen. Yes, I understand the defensive (or lack there of) situation that this sets up. But the scout would get chased out/die just like any other scout, as which point I obviously delay the lair until the scout was gone.
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On June 12 2010 04:07 TrogdorBurninate wrote:
Keep in mind those lings are coming out under the same timing as 14gas/13pool in to speedling. I'm simply using the minerals and gas for the lair rather than the speed upgrade and a queen. Yes, I understand the defensive (or lack there of) situation that this sets up. But the scout would get chased out/die just like any other scout, as which point I obviously delay the lair until the scout was gone.
Good point. I think this could work against protoss and def a non reaper using Terran, which would simply depend on the map.
The problem i have with these builds is that its still too risky. If you pull it off, early mutas dont exactly equal free win, but if you get rushed or harassed in any way you are for sure losing. Its not a good give and take.
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To me it's seem pretty much an all in build. Like earlier posters said, you are very vulnerable in the early game. Any scouting and you're toast.
Also it seems to me you sacrifice quite a lot economically by not getting an early Queen (which is to me one of the main benefits of getting an early pool). Those lack of extra larvae will hurt yourself quite a bit in the drone count.
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I just played around with this and I got 5 mutas really fast (under 7 min) but base defense is definitely limited, and spine crawlers are probably your best choice. You should have enough minerals to throw down 1 right after lair tech and use all your larva for drones. The strength of this build might be better suited for 2's though. Pair up with a protoss buddy who does double gateway zealot pressure and tosses you 200 gas when your spire completes will give you 7 mutas under 7 minutes. A fun build to play around with, but you have no reliable way to get a scout out of your base unless you wait for zerglings after pool is done, in which case you might as well make a queen.
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On June 12 2010 03:53 NovaTheFeared wrote:
I assumed he wouldn't continue this suicidal plan if he scouted the early tech lab to the rax. But even a late reaper would destroy this build because it has no defense. Most Terrans only build reapers as the first units out of the barracks, and don't add them later, because defense should be up by then, although it is not in this build.
While even with the reaper speed upgrade becoming more competitive a choice I didn't see a huge increase of their numbers, I did see more mixing in later reapers. Makes me feel rather uncomfortable about a plan like this really.
Any paranoid scan on the T's part is going to reveal what this has though, and the T early game is easily flexible enough to handle slightly faster mutes. Is the loss to larva economy worth the faster mutes? A fair amount of Ts were mentioning how they'd go 1/1/1 into bio if they saw mutes. While the normal one base mute can cope with that relatively fine because it has a stronger larva economy, this doesn't have enough production to have much of a followup.
The suggestion for 2v2s is cute though, I'll definitely look at that.
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Note that you will lose 8 larva total over a normal fast muta build for mutas 50 sec earlier. Definably a trade off but any time you tech to something superfast you have to sacrifice something. Zerg just cant wall off like terran or toss to have the same security as say a fast banshee or void ray build.
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can you somehow delay the second overloard and build a spinecrawler instead?
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I really dont like not having the queen early on...Z is so open to early attacks without that early queen. Z can't make a wall or anything to stop early rushes, the queen IS your early "wall"
Also with a 7rax reaper rush you can't just go and build ur queen when you realize what's going on; by that time it'l be too late.
Any gate pressure would also screw you. 4 lings won't do crap against even just 2 zealots and then you'll have to mass lings; completely nullifying the mineral advantage you got from cutting your queen and then some.
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You could drone scout and know if hes going early reaper before its time to choose if you want a lair or a queen first. Only problem would be having a ton of gas at that point.
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1 hellion, this build will die to 1 hellion, no special rush or anything, or to 1-2 reapers, late reapers... that spire will be down, and the T is going to throw down some raxs and a reactor on the factory, reasearch stim/combat shield, maybe a bunker or 2 one in your base?one by his minerals?... and run at you with marines/hellions/reapers loling the whole time as you have nothing... no mech required...
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Like some people have mentioned, you would obviously scout. I didn't put that in the OP because it seems like such a default reaction for me just to send the 11/10 drone to scout. Not to mention the short distance of the particular map allows the overlord to see the early gas or the early tech lab before having to run away (depending one which side of the base you scout) And yes if I saw the early tech lab/gas I'd probably toss down a spine crawler in the mineral line, delaying that 15 overlord (seeing how that puts me at 14/18 anyway).
As far as Toss goes... who the hell 2 gates on Desert Oasis? Unless of course it's a proxy which a good drone scout would see.
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On June 12 2010 06:16 Simplification wrote:
1 hellion, this build will die to 1 hellion, no special rush or anything, or to 1-2 reapers, late reapers... that spire will be down, and the T is going to throw down some raxs and a reactor on the factory, reasearch stim/combat shield, maybe a bunker or 2 one in your base?one by his minerals?... and run at you with marines/hellions/reapers loling the whole time as you have nothing... no mech required...
I could see here one hellion would definitely be a problem. The rest of this, I doubt is going to come in to play in the 5:30 it takes to have 5 mutas in their base harassing.
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Fiddled around with this a bit, this needs to sacrifice even ling speed to be able to get mutes at a decent time, since it is impossible to cover your minline in full with just one crawler, even a late reaper build will still kill this off. While a lot of the problems the build would face can probably be handled with adjustments from scouting, but in general I feel like the loss of queen and 8 larva is just way too much.
I feel like a lot of how I can get even with the T comes from the first 4 larva from injection. I see some hellion/reaper/whatever, I can ling. I don't see anything, I drone to catch up to mule. Sacrificing that seems to lose much of the flexibility.
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On June 12 2010 06:24 TrogdorBurninate wrote:As far as Toss goes... who the hell 2 gates on Desert Oasis? Unless of course it's a proxy which a good drone scout would see.
A good drone scout might tell you that there's a proxy, but not what kind it is (unless you're telling me that your scout drone scouts ALL of Desert Oasis before it makes its way into the base).
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I don't see any scout in the build. if you only attempt to scout with the ovie, that's usually not enough imho
another issue is the fragility of the build. you go all-in build, any loss (ovie to marine, drone to probe etc) extends the gap to mutas - which lessens the strength of the build
if you forsake the scouting to get mutas faster, you miss your chance on switching on time in case his build is a direct counter
and yes, a chance of getting scouted is high, and the defenses are low.
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On June 12 2010 06:47 DGMavn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 06:24 TrogdorBurninate wrote:As far as Toss goes... who the hell 2 gates on Desert Oasis? Unless of course it's a proxy which a good drone scout would see. A good drone scout might tell you that there's a proxy, but not what kind it is (unless you're telling me that your scout drone scouts ALL of Desert Oasis before it makes its way into the base).
A good drone scout will check the typical spots on its way to the toss base, such as all the little crevasse around the natural and a quick check of the gold expo and tower. This is why I like to send a fairly early drone like the 11/10 drone so that by the time I get done cheese checking the drone gets to the base at a normal time as though I send a 14 drone to scout.
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Im not a fan of 1-base muta. Mutas are very gas heavy so you need 2 bases for the gas. The terran player can quickly scout you and get like pump like 10 marines out, which should be able to hold your mutas until thors/MTs get out.
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That build is not efficient...try this
10 extractor
9 overlord
12 pool
14 Queen
4 lings (+2 lings extractor trick)
19 overlord
Lair when queen finishes + ling speed
+4 drones
Hidden Spire and another extractor when lair finish
at 500 gas pull all drones off gas
make 5 mutalisk and attack with all your lings and harrass with 5 mutas
while doing this make 2 expansion and from there pump drones and make a Roach hydra and infestor army.
reason you need only 5 mutalisk is because it takes 5 shots from a mutalisk to kill a Worker of any race so you can just attack move one shot workers...most of the time 5 mutalisk are started at about 7 minutes and in combination with all your lings should be enough army to contain the opponent while you expand 2 times, the second expansion is pure gas, and you can get a pretty nice roach/hydra and infestor army by 15 minutes game time to win, and when you attack expand again...pretty straight foreward, make sure you nydus when you need to as well and gg
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On June 20 2010 13:50 TeXasLaWDoG wrote:
That build is not efficient...try this
10 extractor
9 overlord
12 pool
14 Queen
4 lings (+2 lings extractor trick)
19 overlord
Lair when queen finishes + ling speed
+4 drones
Hidden Spire and another extractor when lair finish
at 500 gas pull all drones off gas
make 5 mutalisk and attack with all your lings and harrass with 5 mutas
while doing this make 2 expansion and from there pump drones and make a Roach hydra and infestor army.
reason you need only 5 mutalisk is because it takes 5 shots from a mutalisk to kill a Worker of any race so you can just attack move one shot workers...most of the time 5 mutalisk are started at about 7 minutes and in combination with all your lings should be enough army to contain the opponent while you expand 2 times, the second expansion is pure gas, and you can get a pretty nice roach/hydra and infestor army by 15 minutes game time to win, and when you attack expand again...pretty straight foreward, make sure you nydus when you need to as well and gg
I'm always extremely skeptical of any strategy that is so confident in its time tables and claims to be "pretty straight forward", offering no variations based on possible responses by your opponent.
No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
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You are either going to die half the time to rushes/harasses or have to modify your build at least half the time in which case the BO itself is just suspect. I don't think you will stick with this build very long or you are only going to use it in very specialized situations at least.
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mutalisks will pop at around the 7 minute mark, you will have 4 at once and loose to anything that is not a 2 port banshee  sorry man but not only is it less efficient than sens regular muta build but it doesnt get there before the thors start dropping, therefore defeating any purpose of skipping the queen.
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I feel like if you got scouted you would get rushed and die. Also a lot of people D up their mineral lines pretty quick against zerg which would spell an instant disaster for this. Also marines or stalkers would be able to hold against a small number of mutas.
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Sacrificing everything just so you can try to kill your opponent with the monster power of 4-5 muta? gl with that...
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Norm. 9scout just destroys this. Decent player definately reacts to queenlessness. Not to mention you actually don't gather any extra gas with this, so the amount of mutas will be lower than with slower build with queen.
Obviously this may work well vs bad players who don't scout. But hey, anything works vs ppl who don't scout. Question being how often would queenless 1base muta be better than one with queen? Way too rarely.
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As much as I appreciate ingenuity, I think this build would not be at all practical.The time it takes to pull off such a tactic is simply too long and unless the opposing player is also doing a complete passive build, any attack on you would end the game. Even if the opposing player was to go into full passivity, he would also be teching up along with you, and so he would have his own tech to respond to your early mutalisks. Also, if your attack fails, you would be so set back you would essentially lose.
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I've been practicing a similar build that gets 6 mutas at about 5:15
I can usually put down a spine or two while the spire is growing without delaying any mutas, otherwise i rely on the queen for defense and i can always throw down some zerglings when im in need.
im a really bad player (Silver) in general but its won me a few games. For whatever its worth, ive only been able to try it live about 4 or 5 times before the beta closed.
12 pool
11 Gas
13 ol
13 queen
12 Gas
18 lair
22 spire
drones to 26
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can i go ahead and say that mutas are pretty bad vs terran right now? I think your inital BO is pretty frail and will fold to any early agression (dosent matter if its reapers, marines, or zelots, his build will lose to it the way it is. No queen is suicide). If i scout a spire, thats enough time for me to get turrets up, too. While i'm sure you will get wins doing this on DO in silver league, dont try this at the higher levels. You need to be much more reactive at high level play, instead of being pro-active with a build order like this.
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I had someone do this to me on Desert Oasis. I happened to go Early Phoenixes, however, so I had 2 phoenixes in his base right as his first 4 mutas popped. IIRC, he was able to survive the phoenix harass and my first counter-push, then we both took our thirds and I eventually steamrolled him with Colossus/Stalker/Sentry.
So yeah, it works when there's no early pressure on huge maps, but that's about it. If I'd done a Zealot push, he'd be dead.
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Way too risky. This build could be considered cheese, at best. Any early pressure and you're done for. And a good player will scout and know this.
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On June 12 2010 04:07 TrogdorBurninate wrote:
Keep in mind those lings are coming out under the same timing as 14gas/13pool in to speedling. I'm simply using the minerals and gas for the lair rather than the speed upgrade and a queen. Yes, I understand the defensive (or lack there of) situation that this sets up. But the scout would get chased out/die just like any other scout, as which point I obviously delay the lair until the scout was gone.
This is wrong information. How can you guarantee that you will chase his scout out or kill it? Any decent terran will keep his SCV off of your creep while moving it around your base. You do not have the speed to kill it before he realizes you are not making a queen. Most times, its the queen that kills the scv, so not seeing a queen come out is already putting the terran in a very decent spot.
So, if you delay the lair until the scout dies, then whats the point in doing the build? You are delaying the lair long enough that you could of just made the queen, and did another form of muta harass that puts you in a better early game situation.
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EPT
